It sounds like someone was actually talking about Sigel, because that was his reputation.
Who was the greatest tournament player of all time?
- Thread starter justinb386
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It sounds like someone was actually talking about Sigel, because that was his reputation.
Sigel, Archer
A better question....who was the best that isn't broke today?
Lots of talk about Mike Sigel. I watched an old match of his a couple days ago and had to mute it because he wouldn't shut up.
Lots of talk about Mike Sigel. I watched an old match of his a couple days ago and had to mute it because he wouldn't shut up.
Don't you just love differences of (strong) opinion!
I'm not sure why you're all assuming it's a man. It's not. It's Allison Fisher, who won over 80 national tournaments.
From 1996 - 2007 she was Billiards Digest Female Player of the year 11 out of 12 times, and 6 times in a row.
This was during a time when the WPBA had a minimum of 7 pro events per year. She was the most tournament-tough player I had ever seen, counting the men. And she did it quietly --- and with class and dignity.
And please don't say she didn't have any competition --- she had plenty. She was just so tournament tough that she made it look easy.
From 1996 - 2007 she was Billiards Digest Female Player of the year 11 out of 12 times, and 6 times in a row.
This was during a time when the WPBA had a minimum of 7 pro events per year. She was the most tournament-tough player I had ever seen, counting the men. And she did it quietly --- and with class and dignity.
And please don't say she didn't have any competition --- she had plenty. She was just so tournament tough that she made it look easy.
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No doubt, Allison was a great player and competitor.
But without all players competing against each other and within the same arena, it's impossible to truly know. I'd suggest that she wouldn't have fared nearly as well against the mid to top male players.
I figured eventually someone would do the man vs. women's post.
That wasn't the question. The question was who was the best tournament player. I just told you who it was --- hands down.
There is a gentlemen named Nick Varner...all disciplines and seems to be lost in the shuffle of Buddy, Efren, Sigel, Earl era. He swung it pretty good in all games and has several titles to show for it and a 2nd vote for Alison
Not a man vs woman post, that's something you did, it was a player vs player post.
If players are not competing against each other or against the same opponents, it's impossible to judge. That's why most sports have different "classes" and "divisions", and competitors are ranked against those in their own. Hands down.
I'm out.
J
I don't see how you could dismiss Jean Balukas from the conversation then, since she won the U.S. Open seven years in a row and won sixteen tournaments in a row at one point. I don't think Allison did either of those things.
You're right, we are, at times, an opinionated group. That's what makes the forum exciting at times. I did say no question, Mike Sigel, and I still think that, given that the question did not specify the game. I took it to mean all the games, if you naturally exclude Snooker, and the various Carom games.
Mike won 14.1 titles from the late 70s to the early 90s, which many others do not have in their resumes. Earl and Efren do not have the 14.1 experience, but would certainly contend if the question was greatest nine ball or nine ball and one pocket.
Jim Rempe is mentioned, and a good point, another great all round player. Most of my viewing experience was Sigel coming out on top between the two, including a run of 150 and out in Chicago in 1989. By the way, Mike also ran 150 and out in 1992 against Mike Zuglan in New York, and I believe has other 150s, but can't remember exactly when.
Mosconi is mentioned, and rightfully so. Not to take away from that great player's record, but he was strictly 14.1. Names like Harold Worst do come up, but it would be hard to track down all the knowledge, as he passed away relatively young.
If the question had been a combination of tournament and gambling, I might include the late great Luther Lassiter as a contender, and others can come to mind.
Great debate, but I'll still go with Mike Sigel. I can't think of anyone that other players looked forward to playing less.
All the best,
WW
I would have to put Willie's 15 world titles against Mike's 3 US Opens and 5 world titles. Plus Willie absolutely dominated the game between his first and last wins. There is no telling how many major tournaments Mosconi won in that span.
Here was Billiards Digest "50 Greatest List". Mosconi was the #1 (primarily) pocket billiard player, Greenleaf #2 and Sigel was #3 ahead of Mizerak. Greenleaf and Mosconi were the two most dominant dedicated pocket billiard players of their time.
50. Jersey Red
49. Allen Gilbert
48. Jeanette Lee
47. Jimmy Moore
46. Dorothy Wise
45. Otto Reiselt
44. Babe Cranfield
43. Lou Butera
42. John Horgan
41. Cisero Murphy
40. Jerome Keogh
39. Allen Hopkins
38. Dallas West
37. Jim Rempe
36. George Sutton
35. Charlie Peterson
34. Robert Cannefax
33. Bennie Allen
32. Ray Martin
31. Ruth McGinnis
30. Johnny Archer
29. Efren Reyes
28. Loree Jon Jones
27. Buddy Hall
26. Larry Johnson (Boston Shorty)
25. Eddie Taylor
24. Jake Shaefer
23. Thomas Hueston
22. Andrew Ponzi
21. Welker Cochran
20. Erwin Rudolph
19. Harold Worst
18. Allison Fisher
17. Earl Strickland
16. Joe Balsis
15. Jean Balukas
14. Nick Varner
13. Johnny Layton
12. Jake Shaefer Jr.
11. Sang Lee
10. Jimmy Caras
9. Luther Lassiter
8. Irving Crane
7. Frank Taberski
6. Steve Mizerak
5. Mike Sigel
4. Alfredo De Oro
3. Ralph Greenleaf
2. Willie Mosconi
1. Willie Hoppe
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This thread is a good example of why its almost impossible to say with certainty. It comes with more conjecture than anything else.
My personal vote(opinion
) goes to Mike Sigel, he dominated the tournament scene when the "players" were out of the shadows. His tournament wins were over larger fields of higher skilled opponents than previous champions.
While Mosconi dominated his era, it was typically smaller fields of the same guys who were already scared of missing against him. It was also round robin tournaments for the most part in his days.
Its hard to compare apples to apples when there are so many differences along the course of evolution to this game.
My personal vote(opinion
) goes to Mike Sigel, he dominated the tournament scene when the "players" were out of the shadows. His tournament wins were over larger fields of higher skilled opponents than previous champions. While Mosconi dominated his era, it was typically smaller fields of the same guys who were already scared of missing against him. It was also round robin tournaments for the most part in his days.
Its hard to compare apples to apples when there are so many differences along the course of evolution to this game.
If you listen to the pro interviews and when they chat on commentary, the ones that have been around say Sigel was the best tournament player around. Of All time it's a bit tough to say, you really need to go by decade. If one guy won 20 events but they only held 25, another won 25 but they held 50 during that time you look at, there is a difference there.
Level of play overall also goes up and down. You may have a bunch of crappy pros and a few good ones that dominate while 20 years later you would have a bunch of very good pros with a few outstanding ones but they would still lose more than the ones from earlier since they are facing tougher opponents.
I just know that people like Buddy Hall say all the time that is Sigel is in the tournament he was a favorite to win, and if he was in the finals, it was pretty much his.
About top tournament player being a woman, look at the above example about overall competition. Jean was a good player, but compared to the other women of the time she was a god. It's like me playing basketball against 3rd graders. I may stink, but compared to them, I'll never lose.
Level of play overall also goes up and down. You may have a bunch of crappy pros and a few good ones that dominate while 20 years later you would have a bunch of very good pros with a few outstanding ones but they would still lose more than the ones from earlier since they are facing tougher opponents.
I just know that people like Buddy Hall say all the time that is Sigel is in the tournament he was a favorite to win, and if he was in the finals, it was pretty much his.
About top tournament player being a woman, look at the above example about overall competition. Jean was a good player, but compared to the other women of the time she was a god. It's like me playing basketball against 3rd graders. I may stink, but compared to them, I'll never lose.
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Alfredo De Oro
Look up this guys record he beat everyone for decades.
Might not be the top tournament winner of all time but should be in the conversation.
Here I did for you
The career of the distinguished Cuban champion Alfredo de Oro encompassed both Three-Cushion and Pocket Billiards and spanned the closing decades of the 19th century and the opening decades of the 20th. De Oro, who served in his country's diplomatic corps, first gained the Pocket Billiard crown in 1887. He was to repeat the achievement 16 times in the next 25 years. De Oro held the Three-Cushion title 10 times from 1908 through 1919. In 1934, at the age of 71, de Oro came out of retirement for a Championship Tournament, winning two dramatic victories from defending champion Welker Cochran and the ultimate winner of the tournament, Johnny Layton.
This guy was a monster.
Look up this guys record he beat everyone for decades.
Might not be the top tournament winner of all time but should be in the conversation.
Here I did for you
The career of the distinguished Cuban champion Alfredo de Oro encompassed both Three-Cushion and Pocket Billiards and spanned the closing decades of the 19th century and the opening decades of the 20th. De Oro, who served in his country's diplomatic corps, first gained the Pocket Billiard crown in 1887. He was to repeat the achievement 16 times in the next 25 years. De Oro held the Three-Cushion title 10 times from 1908 through 1919. In 1934, at the age of 71, de Oro came out of retirement for a Championship Tournament, winning two dramatic victories from defending champion Welker Cochran and the ultimate winner of the tournament, Johnny Layton.
This guy was a monster.
Cant speak about the older guys
Sigel was real tough......but Buddy Hall could and would beat any and every player more consistently than any other player since the seventies. Earl, nor Sigel, nor Varner, nor most anyone else stood in line to play Hall. He never missed....he just did not miss. Keith McCready would play him, Louie Roberts would play him and bet high, but they rately liked it. Just my opinion. And that list is terrible. Reyes not in any top ten list means the list is of zero value. Nobody stood in line to pkay Efren except Parica, who beat his pants off for several years, then the magician got by him.
Sigel was real tough......but Buddy Hall could and would beat any and every player more consistently than any other player since the seventies. Earl, nor Sigel, nor Varner, nor most anyone else stood in line to play Hall. He never missed....he just did not miss. Keith McCready would play him, Louie Roberts would play him and bet high, but they rately liked it. Just my opinion. And that list is terrible. Reyes not in any top ten list means the list is of zero value. Nobody stood in line to pkay Efren except Parica, who beat his pants off for several years, then the magician got by him.