Who would win - USA pros vs. Phillipines pros

[bandido]

Thanks for the information on all the players we are unfamiliar with. Looks like they have the depth to dominate for years to come.

So they have a 2nd-4th string, (2nd string = Ronnie Alcano, Warren Kiamco, Antonio Gabica, Nikoy Lining, Gandy Valle, 3rd string = Jerome Pena, Carlo Boado, Joven Bustamante, Allan Cuartero, Russian Ceniza (watched him beat Sambajon with Santos getting the wild 7), 4th string = Victor Arpilleda, Deo Mark Alpajora, Jeffrey de Luna and 2 17 year olds), so I am guessing their 5th string would be Parica, Luat, Andam, Santos and a 16 year old?!!

Actually, the rating here is not just for skills but also seems like the "choke" level or the intensity of competition that a player can handle. What then weighs in is the ability to win Major International competitions and high stakes money games. Efren, Django, Amang, Ronnie, Dennis, Alex and Marlon are rated 1 because of their proven performances in the above criteria. So with such a criteria, nobody from the the top 3 levels get demoted because of their accomplishments and proven heart but there are a lot of the lower level players that can outplay some of the higher rated ones in money games and local tournaments. Level2 have the ability at any given time to give the top guns a run for the money but may still lack the winning % in international tournaments and have a lower winning% in matches against the #1 level. Warren, Nikoy, Bebeng, Luat, Andam, Edgar Acaba, Lee Van Corteza and Gandy belong to this level. The 3rd level is still divided in 3 classes, high 3, normal 3 and low 3 and all these guys need is the international exposure and visa/financier problem or lack of is what keeps them rated as such. There are quite a few that I failto name as they just go by a monicker lke Taroy, Tukaw, Owat, Angel, Weiner, Alex Mata, Bert Pasay, Tulabing, MakMak (actually 3 of them and all under 21) WengWeng, Rene Bata, Bubwit, Elvis Calasang, Elvis Perez, Roel Esquillo,etc aside from the above mentioned (I'm sure I've missed more). We have 8-10 16-17 year olds in this level that are recognized as such because of their being here in Manila. There are more in the outskirts that haven't even reached Manila. The #1 14-17 is a 16 year old named Revo(nice catchy name that just may make it).

Efren will be rated #1 forever because of his accomplishments and capacity to win the big cash but Dennis has beaten him even in 9ball, 10 ball and rotation in their last 7(six-figure stakes) clashes.

 

[BallBuster]

I most certainly pick Ronnie Alcano for Team Philippines 1st team. So my pick is Reyes, Busta, Pagulayan, Orcullo and Alcano. Manalo is so so these days....

 

[Williebetmore]

...so I am guessing their 5th string would be Parica, Luat, Andam, Santos and a 16 year old?!! [/B]

WW,
No, you are wrong. The 16 year old is out; Efren will play left-handed on the 5th string. Oh, wait.....maybe the opposite-handed Efren is first or second string.....okay your 16 year old is back on the squad.

 

[lewdo26]

I most certainly pick Ronnie Alcano for Team Philippines 1st team. So my pick is Reyes, Busta, Pagulayan, Orcullo and Alcano. Manalo is so so these days....

Really? Is that why the guy won a historic 17 consecutive matches in the star-filled IPT tournament? Phew! Big deal, right?

Alcano over U.S. Open runner-up Parica, huh?? Yep. He must be too old...

 

[sniper]

c) We'll get some indication from the upcoming Matchroom WORLD CUP, which I believe will be two players per nation playing scotch doubles, think its 9 ball?

I've been aware of this event on the WPA calendar for quite some time now. Does anyone know any new developments? Scotch doubles would be a great way to play as it requires good teamwork between the two partners.

 

[bandido]

WW,
No, you are wrong. The 16 year old is out; Efren will play left-handed on the 5th string. Oh, wait.....maybe the opposite-handed Efren is first or second string.....okay your 16 year old is back on the squad.

LOL, Efren's lefty can hang with most low 3rd level players here. The shot-making is just tremendous once a player gets to 3rd level here. And most of these young ones are so aggressive that their opponents seem to not have faces.

 

[f210]

Alcano over Manalo???

I too would choose Manalo over Alcano any time simply because he is more disciplined, experienced and most of all his showing in the IPT was simply spectacular. Only losing to Efren and Busta in the last 2 games. He won $60,000 for that and then the next week, he won $100,000 in the Texas Hold'em Billiards winner take all Tournament in a field that included Duel and Morris. All that Alcano has under his belt is a San Migual Asian tour and a couple of Joss (?) tournaments.

I am sure he is practicing hard for the next IPT tournaments. It should also be noted that Manalo was the highest ranking Filipino (aside from Pagulayan) in the last 2 world championships.

 

[Chris]

I wonder if in Philipines, Germany, Taiwan, etc. there is as much gambling on pool as there is in the US? If not, is that an indication that focusing on the prize (monetary winnings) instead of the game is a less effective way to bring one's game up to the next level?

 

[predator]

Neither would dominate

I do not agree at all with this observation. I think Manalo, Busta, Pagulayan and even Orcullo are currently at par if not better than these American players you mentioned. Morris, Duel and Jones were just in the recently concluded Reno tournament and Orcullo won that one. Gandy Valle, Kiamco and Edwin Montal even performed better than the above mentioned players.

It's just one tournament. Could be a different story in the next one.
"at par if not better" is the key here. Meaning their abilities are so close, that neither team is going to dominate. I think that Philippines are indeed #1, have been for quite some time. But team US must have some chance, no? 35%? Maybe even 40% or more? How much % of chance would you give them?

 

[JoeyInCali]

It's just one tournament. Could be a different story in the next one.
"at par if not better" is the key here. Meaning their abilities are so close, that neither team is going to dominate. I think that Philippines are indeed #1, have been for quite some time. But team US must have some chance, no? 35%? Maybe even 40% or more? How much % of chance would you give them?

33%.
Jones would shark his own teammates.
If they did Dutch team, somehow the Filipinos shoot much better.
They almost know each other's pattern. Check that Efren-Busta against the Taiwanese partners video .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMO558G9kZM&search=Pool Billiards Efren Reyes Stroke Analysis
I remember the team of Efren, Busta, Andam, Luat and Parica running over Sigel, Varner, Strickland, Archer and Davenport.

 

[CrownCityCorey]

Top 5 vs. top 5, in their respective order. So the best US player would play the best Philipino player. And the second best would play the second best, and so on. thoughts?

Depends on what game they are playing and the type of equipment.

9 Ball on big pockets = USA
Any other game, and/or on small pockets = Phillipines

Extend your question to Top 20 of each and the USA goes broke.

 

[Renegade]

It would be great to see this! I hope someone steps up soon and help make this a reality....paging KT! This would be the biggest thing in pool since...well, the IPT!

It's going to be a toss-up between Germany, Taiwan and the Philippines. Although to play devil's advocate, if Team USA is such a weak team, how come it always beats Team Europe in the Mosconi Cup? Theoretically, Team Europe can be Team Germany with, say, Immonen thrown in. So that's Hohmann, Souquet, Engert, Immonen and Ortmann. How is it Team America always wins???

 

[bruin70]

I wonder if in Philipines, Germany, Taiwan, etc. there is as much gambling on pool as there is in the US? If not, is that an indication that focusing on the prize (monetary winnings) instead of the game is a less effective way to bring one's game up to the next level?

the goal of playing to win money is finite. to wit, pool players being the lazy bunch that they are, if they were winning good money, i suspect success would lull them into not improving.

if one tries to improve for the sake on improving, art for art's sake so to speak, then the player's improvement is limitless because he would never be satisfied.

obviously, there are tons, a massive majority probably, who would disagree with me, but they're probably all degenerate gamblers and because gambling and pool are practically one and the same, it is how they grew up. they wouldn't understand "art for art's sake" as a practical way to improve.

 

[bandido]

f one tries to improve for the sake on improving, art for art's sake so to speak, then the player's improvement is limitless because he would never be satisfied.

obviously, there are tons, a massive majority probably, who would disagree with me, but they're probably all degenerate gamblers and because gambling and pool are practically one and the same, it is how they grew up. they wouldn't understand "art for art's sake" as a practical way to improve.

tap..tap A very observant one! I agree and think that this is how the magician got to be the "Magician" or how Orcullo got to be "Robocop" or marlon to be "Marvelous" or Alcano......they play to express themselves as do a lot of the guys I mentioned in an earlier post. Filipinos start out experimenting with spin and ball speed a lot even before they learn the proper fundamentals. We easily are impressed and affected by visual stimulants.

 

[BlowFish]

I wonder if in Philipines, Germany, Taiwan, etc. there is as much gambling on pool as there is in the US? If not, is that an indication that focusing on the prize (monetary winnings) instead of the game is a less effective way to bring one's game up to the next level?

I was in Manila last weekend and went to Oneside (Ermita)......boy oh boy, that place smells gambling like no other and that is only one place. Everytime someone comes in, all eyes will light up and the persons name called. Somewhere in the background, you'll hear someone say "Pasyente ko yan, aking yan." (Trans: That's my patient, don't touch him.) Luckily, when I came in, my friend Florencio Banar met me and everyone just forgot that I ever went in. I came because I heard from the grapevine that Efren Reyes and Dodong Vidal (House Pro) will be playing some money games. I didn't see the champ when I left around 2am.

On that 1 single nite all 4 Brunswick tables where money games are happening had a couple of Large (0000) bets on each table. On the 5 local tables, there where Small (000) bets on the line as well.

On that nite, I saw Bustamante, Luat, Gabica, Corteza, Alcano, Adam, Vidal and a host of tiradors (hustlers).

My trip on that weekend was all worth it.

 

[bandido]

That's Dodong DIDAL not Vidal, Jhun. One Side is a Japanese owned ph and is everybody's battleground for wages from 4-low6 figures. Low6-low7 figures are held at Bugsy's Lair.

 

[Leil gay]

I cannot believe they keep forgetting the NATIVE AMERICANS between Lee Heuwagen, Stan Toursngeau, Leil Gay, and the 2 guys the seminoles sponsor( Troy Frank&Corey Deuel) we would win! GO TRIBE

 

[jay helfert]

USA vs. Phil.

Orcullo, Manolo, Bustamante, Reyes, Alcano and Pagulayan.

Against the USA? Hell, I'd take them against the rest of the world and lay a price. If you increase the size of each team to ten players, the filipinos have an even greater advantage. My guess is that 25 of the top 50 pool players in the world are filipino.

Actually, the Chinese are probably the next strongest country today after the Philipines.

 

[Leil gay]

Jay I spent 2 wks. in Taiwan back in 93 when I returned home,the big surprise was how how good everyone played at this tour. My words were the U.S. better wake up! Man these guys xan really play!

 

[cuetechasaurus]

Philippines...I don't know. Save for Reyes, I don't think their other players are any better than say Morris or Deuel. Certainly not better than Strickland. Jones and Archer are experts at torturing their opponents with slow play, nobody gets in stroke while playing them...and there you have it...it's anybody's game.

Efren and Bustamante don't get affected by slow play at all. I watched a grueling marathon match between Basavich and Bustamante at the UPA championship in LA a few years ago. It was alternate breaks, and Danny was taking on average 2 minutes per shot. Bustamante didn't seem to be affected at all. Every time he had a shot, he ran out. The match went hill-hill, and Danny won. He was getting more shots after the break, and that's why he won. Bustamante didn't really make any mistakes. I've seen Efren play alot of different slow players all the time, and his game doesn't change at all.

Parica on the other hand, from what I've seen, he seems to fall apart when his opponent is really slow. When he played Jones in the 2003 US Open finals, his game got progressively worse as Jeremy took longer and longer each shot. He complained afterwards that he got out of stroke because Jeremy was taking so long to shoot. That was a painful match to watch.

In 9-ball, I don't think any country has a chance against team Phillipines. Efren is Efren, Bustamante is Bustamante, Manalo is a straight shooting powerhouse, and so is Orcullo and Pagulayan.