Whos the best playing instructor?

I think what is missed here is a very simple equation....

Mentor > Coach > Instructor.....

Many of the greats were mentored by the greats that came before them... You don't hire a mentor they just decide to take you on because they see something in you or they end up sharing a car and a room with you on the road for long enough they have to take you on or you both go broke....

Pool has no coaches so to speak of but several people are trying to fix that... Ralf Eckert comes to mind as a coach and coaches are now employed in many countries outside of the U.S... So what we have left are instructors.....

The difference between the 3 involves levels of intimacy AND time spent together.....

DO I think that some of the current instructors would make great coaches that could develop champions? Likely.... If the money at the pro level allowed for a player to hire a coach to follow them thru the grind and asses them day in and day out I think a few instructors might make it to coach level.....

The problem is the instructors HAVE to make a living too and until someone can actually afford to pay for large enough blocks of their time we will never know how they stack up to the likes of Penick, Harmon, and Haney... As of right now I know of no U.S instructors that could be considered as proven coaches.... That can change at any time....

Before someone points to Stan..... Landon IS his son so I might in that instance consider him a coach.......
 
The Renfro said:
I think what is missed here is a very simple equation....

Mentor > Coach > Instructor.....

Many of the greats were mentored by the greats that came before them... You don't hire a mentor they just decide to take you on because they see something in you or they end up sharing a car and a room with you on the road for long enough they have to take you on or you both go broke....

Pool has no coaches so to speak of but several people are trying to fix that... Ralf Eckert comes to mind as a coach and coaches are now employed in many countries outside of the U.S... So what we have left are instructors.....

The difference between the 3 involves levels of intimacy AND time spent together.....

DO I think that some of the current instructors would make great coaches that could develop champions? Likely.... If the money at the pro level allowed for a player to hire a coach to follow them thru the grind and asses them day in and day out I think a few instructors might make it to coach level.....

The problem is the instructors HAVE to make a living too and until someone can actually afford to pay for large enough blocks of their time we will never know how they stack up to the likes of Penick, Harmon, and Haney... As of right now I know of no U.S instructors that could be considered as proven coaches.... That can change at any time....

Before someone points to Stan Shuffett..... Landon Shuffett IS his son so I might in that instance consider him a coach.......
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And an affordable one! :grin:
 
I think many instuctors play well..who's the best..don't know..
I like reading Rodger Longs..Bob J. an Bill S..articals..
their are many others too..
Just thought I'd add my two cents..
 
nobcitypool said:
You thought? I was confused, it appeared that CJ was doing your thinking for you.

It is unclear whether Penick was a "good" player or not. It is clear he had no significant success as a player. He was however one of the greatest teachers of the game, particularly the mental side of the equation. He was well ahead of his time.

Grout on the other hand did play on the PGA tour for quite some time. He never won a tournament however, I believe his best finish was 8th. Somehow or another though, despite that lack of Championship success, he managed to be the one and only coach for Jack Nicklaus. Difficult to imagine how he taught Nicklaus to win 18 Majors when he never won a single event himself.

Butch Harmon did in fact play on the PGA Tour for one year. He somehow managed to parlay that minimal amount of high level success into being considered by most the number 1 Golf Instructor in the USA today. He has coached many notable players including Greg Norman, Tiger Woods and I believe, Phil Mickelson.

It appears that Hank Haney never played on the PGA Tour yet again managed to become one of the top 5 Instructors. He also coached Tiger Woods.

Despite your "thoughts" otherwise, it would appear the vast majority of professional level coaches, in most all sports, were not Super Stars in that sport.

Many would argue that Bill Belichick is the best coach in the NFL. His playing career peaked at a small college in Connecticut. By your way of "thinking", he should be coaching a high school team in Podunk, PA. Fortunately for Patriots fans, he and their owner fail to subscribe to your way of thinking.

Thanks for your "thoughts".
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Great instructors in ''any'' endeavor, sports, math, science etc. must have ''one'' key element side by side with a good education, the ability to express ideas & concepts in their simplicity. Diarreaha of the mouth is very intolerable in this prefession....
 
Island Drive said:
Great instructors in ''any'' endeavor, sports, math, science etc. must have ''one'' key element side by side with a good education, the ability to express ideas & concepts in their simplicity. Diarreaha of the mouth is very intolerable in this prefession....
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I'm not an instructor so that's nice to know. Taken many, many golf lessons, a hand full of pool lessons and stayed at Holiday Inn Express recently though. :rolleyes:
 
There is a difference between coaching someone and providing instruction to someone. The difference is to coach someone requires long term observation of that person while practicing and in competitive situations.

They are the eyes outside of you that can see what you are doing. They can see when you need to go to a instructor and then ensure that you follow that instruction by observing you.

When I was racing motorcycles, my wife would watch certain turns while I practiced. She asked me one time why I was slowing down more than others for this certain turn. In my mind I wasn't. From my POV, I was just slowing done a little.

Next session, I remembered what was said about that turn and just stayed in the gas, and went the fast ever through that turn which helped me to stay closer to the guy in front of me during the racer.

She was just a novice street rider and never even been on the track, but knew enough and watched enough racing to know what was going on and give me proper feedback.

If I had not picked up my speed, in that turn, I would have found a faster rider and set up a session where I followed him around to get the speed up for that corner based on what my wife told me.

FWIW.
 
Roger Long said:
backplaying: You say you don't play at the level you use to play because you're close to 60. Well, I'm close to 62 and I think I may now be playing some of the best pool of my life. And the reason I think that is so is because I'm giving more lessons now than I have at any other time in my life. By doing this, I'm kept grounded in the fundamentals all the time. Because I am constantly telling my students to remember to do four fundamental things on each and every shot, I am constantly reminded myself to do those same four fundamental things. And because I am able to detect mechanical anomalies in my students that are preventing them from executing any of those four fundamental things consistently, I have become accutely aware when mechanical anomalies creep into my own stroke. Also, because I have to constantly be researching and upgrading my knowledge of all subjects in order that I can demonstrate the necessary shots to my students on the first or second attempt, my own game becomes all the more sharp with fewer hours of actual practice time having to be put in.

But you asked, what level IS my best level? I really don't know. As I stated earlier, no clear skill level definitions have ever been established, so I don't think it's possible to put a rating on me (or anyone else, for that matter). Have I played professionally? No, but I've played in a lot of tournaments with "professionals" (quotation marks because no one has ever clearly defined what constitutes a professional, either).

Can I instruct? Absolutely! I especially enjoy working with novice and intermediate players because their heads are not already filled with a lot of confusing and conflicting information that has been handed out by other well-meaning, but poorly-expressed "instructors." But that's not to mean I can't help advanced players when the need arises. For example: I recently got into a discussion with one of our local advanced players who was dealing with an ongoing problem on the pool table. (Now this is a guy who has taken lessons from every instructor and every pro that has come through town, plus buys every book and DVD that comes down the pike.) After a brief explanation and demonstration of the physics involved in this person's quandary, we had the problem solved, whereupon he exclaimed, "Wow, I just learned more in five minutes that I did in four hours with (a master instructor)."

I don't mean to be heaping grief on you, backplaying. You seem to be getting enough of that from a few others here. I do understand your skepticism when it comes to the knowledge of "unproven" instructors, but I also hope you will come to understand that there really are a lot of very knowledgeable people out there, even though they have chosen to not persue personal glory on the green felt.

Roger
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Good post.
 
when I play super, in the competitive "zone" I NEVER take credit for playing well

markgw said:
I believe what CJ is telling you is he is the best player instructor"-)
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My "claim to fame" will never be as an instructor. I believe there are many people better suited to work with beginners and intermediate players.

My systems and techniques are for players that wants to reach a level to win tournaments, or gambling matches. I've worked with some very well know players that for now will not be disclosed in the spirit of people not jumping to the wrong conclusions. I'm told I make some people feel uncomforable lately about "getting into their territory" with teaching, and they can feel at ease that they misunderstand my intentions here.

Most players that I'm involved with is in a "team" effort to help them be the best THEY can be. It's not something I would ever take credit for and even in my own game I tried not to let "ego" get involved. Pride always comes before someone's fall, and I've learned there's better ways.

I joke around on here, but I will assure you when I play super, in the competitive "zone" I NEVER take credit for playing well. I've made that mistake a few times in my life and my skills were immediately "reduced", so I have a healthy respect for humility when competing.

Even when I write about how to perceive and disuss my techniques and systems I always point out "The Game is the Teacher", this keeps me in the right frame of mind to keep "channeling" pure information to pass on. If I start thinking it's coming from me somehow it's immediately "reduced" and I enter the "pool purgatory" I jokenly refer to. :wink: 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
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Roger Long said:
backplaying: You say you don't play at the level you use to play because you're close to 60. Well, I'm close to 62 and I think I may now be playing some of the best pool of my life. And the reason I think that is so is because I'm giving more lessons now than I have at any other time in my life. By doing this, I'm kept grounded in the fundamentals all the time. Because I am constantly telling my students to remember to do four fundamental things on each and every shot, I am constantly reminded myself to do those same four fundamental things. And because I am able to detect mechanical anomalies in my students that are preventing them from executing any of those four fundamental things consistently, I have become accutely aware when mechanical anomalies creep into my own stroke. Also, because I have to constantly be researching and upgrading my knowledge of all subjects in order that I can demonstrate the necessary shots to my students on the first or second attempt, my own game becomes all the more sharp with fewer hours of actual practice time having to be put in.

But you asked, what level IS my best level? I really don't know. As I stated earlier, no clear skill level definitions have ever been established, so I don't think it's possible to put a rating on me (or anyone else, for that matter). Have I played professionally? No, but I've played in a lot of tournaments with "professionals" (quotation marks because no one has ever clearly defined what constitutes a professional, either).

Can I instruct? Absolutely! I especially enjoy working with novice and intermediate players because their heads are not already filled with a lot of confusing and conflicting information that has been handed out by other well-meaning, but poorly-expressed "instructors." But that's not to mean I can't help advanced players when the need arises. For example: I recently got into a discussion with one of our local advanced players who was dealing with an ongoing problem on the pool table. (Now this is a guy who has taken lessons from every instructor and every pro that has come through town, plus buys every book and DVD that comes down the pike.) After a brief explanation and demonstration of the physics involved in this person's quandary, we had the problem solved, whereupon he exclaimed, "Wow, I just learned more in five minutes that I did in four hours with (a master instructor)."

I don't mean to be heaping grief on you, backplaying. You seem to be getting enough of that from a few others here. I do understand your skepticism when it comes to the knowledge of "unproven" instructors, but I also hope you will come to understand that there really are a lot of very knowledgeable people out there, even though they have chosen to not persue personal glory on the green felt.

Roger
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Nice post, Roger.

Lou Figueroa
 
Neil said:
According to CJ, I'm just a weak C or B player. My high run is only 12 racks on a barbox. I say only, because the guy unscrewed. Who knows, I might have run more.??

That said, if someone is an A player, there is nothing wrong with their pattern play. You must be very narrowminded if you honestly believe there is only one correct pattern to run a rack. Each person will run a rack according to his/her strengths in position play.

Having been "up there", I can guarantee you that the biggest thing that separates B players from A and up is your basic fundamentals. Consistency. Any B player is capable of making any shot on the table that any A or above is going to go for. They are still B's because they don't have the consistent fundamentals to pocket consistently, and they don't have the cb control of the better players for the same reason. After that, it is all in the head. Anyone that really wants to, and has the time and proper training, can achieve A level.
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I once ran 26 racks on a shimmed up 9 footer for 500 a game, and the alarm clock went off and woke me up! Maybe your alarm clock is not as good as mine!
 
backplaying said:
I once ran 26 racks on a shimmed up 9 footer for 500 a game, and the alarm clock went off and woke me up! Maybe your alarm clock is not as good as mine!
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You calling him out? Sounds like you're calling him out? Well, I got $500 on Neil, not knowing one thing about you sir...So, come git you some :)
 
Where is Neil? I'd play cuz I'm starving for a game here. I've never run 12 consecutive racks but I've slayed some giants.
 
JolietJames said:
Where is Neil? I'd play cuz I'm starving for a game here. I've never run 12 consecutive racks but I've slayed some giants.
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We're waiting for you in Addison :) Come git you some... you want giants? Well, it's all you can eat here baby :) heck, why not sub for our team, and see how you like it.... or at least qualify so you can play in the finals at end of year :)
 
JolietJames said:
My schedule isn't a problem? What time does the league end at night? What game do you play?
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ACS League. 8ball. 5 player teams. Play each player on the opposing team once. 10 points for a win, plus an extra point for evey ball your opponent left. Loser gets a point for each ball they made. Handicapped, and it is IMPOSSIBLE to sandbag, many have tried, and none have succeeded. Total points earned every night per player is tracked for the handicap.

$15 per week. A cut goes to house for the tables, the rest goes into the prize pool. Each team gets one table, so you can arrive early and practice for free, and stay after and play all night. During the matches, we have two games going at same time.

Starts at 8:00pm, usually done by 10:00, or 10:30 the latest. Not sure what the cut off is for new players, but I will check. The next session starts second week of January.
 
Ok I played on an ACS team last year to qualify for state. Bar tables though. You guys are on 9 footers right? Our team didn't do too well but I managed to get 9th in the 9 ball. This year's state champ team is from Joliet. Some of my friends are on that team.
 
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