Why are phillipino's the best poolplayers in the world?

T

tommywhsl1

Registered
In the 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's, thru the early 80's the best pool players in the world came from right here in the good old USA. What happened?

Theory (1st part)

In the time before 1940 and thru the early 80's (Buddy Hall) pool was not a sport of liesure to top players but a life. The routine was get up in the morning go to the pool hall hit balls (practice) until you were tired, take a break for a lunch, picture show, etc. and back to the pool hall for more practice or the days action. The next day start again by waking up heading to the pool hall to hit balls and so on and on. This happened 7 days a week 8 to 10 hours a day sometimes longer. Practice, practice, practice, gamble, practice, gamble, play on to scratch out a days/weeks/years money! Good guys, bad guys, crooks, cons they were all in the pool rooms looking for a score. Jay H. has many stories in his book, accounts of players and things he has seen! So he is one that can atest to the fact that if you want to be the best you must be more decated than the rest. That is why american pool players were the best during these years because they wanted it more, were willing to go past what was needed to get there. Proof is that during these years their wasn't just one player that could run 120, etc and out playing straight pool, but a hand full that all did on a regular basis. Today on personally don't know of more than one or two in the world that play at that speed. Of course this was before accustat and before nine ball was changed to the ball in hand rules the players had to be ball makers first and formost because there wasn't any ball in hand to bail you out from a bad spot, if you could make the shot and you knew your opponent could not you had the nutts and that was just the way it was!! The rule changes effected the game in a neg. way in my opinion by taking away the better pool players biggist adantage his ability to see and make shots.

Theory (2nd part)

Today american pool players face many things that keep them from performing as their mentors and heros did! Pool players are know to harness multipule bad habits to go with pool and thru the years they are easier and more abundunt than in the past. Examples, casino's, poker, slotmachines, bookmakers, drugs, golf, women, men, phones, and the list goes on!!! and a pool players priortiy's are screwed up 90 percent of the time. Not necessarily is it all their fault because of the inablity to make a money playing the game they look for other ways to score. The funny part is that pool players are under the mentality that they would rather play pool and make the easy money than get a job and make real money for working, what they don't know is the hustling pool is hard work much like playing poker but wihtout the possiblity of hitting a homerun for millions.
A top pool player today may stay in the pool room for hours on end for a period of time 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, maybe as long as 10 years, but that is tops and to beat the best you must be more didicated than your opponent and this will not get it done!!!

Theory (3rd part)

The opponent (phillippino's) start out with nothing and i mean nothing go to work in the pool hall as a kid sweeping up or some type of gofer work. At each oppertunity they pick up a stick and hit balls, they watch the best players in the world hit balls and stay in action daily, they see the time that it takes to be the best. They don't suffer the distractions of their counterparts in the USA. No money to play poker, golf, slotmachines, etc. they see only one way out and that is to beat the best and get a ticket to make it playing the only game they know POOL!!!!!!!!

Conclusion:

Phillippion's are the top of the game (THE BEST)


My theory in text,

Thanks, Tommy
 
tommywhsl1 said:
In the 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's, thru the early 80's the best pool players in the world came from right here in the good old USA. What happened?

Theory (1st part)

In the time before 1940 and thru the early 80's (Buddy Hall) pool was not a sport of liesure to top players but a life. The routine was get up in the morning go to the pool hall hit balls (practice) until you were tired, take a break for a lunch, picture show, etc. and back to the pool hall for more practice or the days action. The next day start again by waking up heading to the pool hall to hit balls and so on and on. This happened 7 days a week 8 to 10 hours a day sometimes longer. Practice, practice, practice, gamble, practice, gamble, play on to scratch out a days/weeks/years money! Good guys, bad guys, crooks, cons they were all in the pool rooms looking for a score. Jay H. has many stories in his book, accounts of players and things he has seen! So he is one that can atest to the fact that if you want to be the best you must be more decated than the rest. That is why american pool players were the best during these years because they wanted it more, were willing to go past what was needed to get there. Proof is that during these years their wasn't just one player that could run 120, etc and out playing straight pool, but a hand full that all did on a regular basis. Today on personally don't know of more than one or two in the world that play at that speed. Of course this was before accustat and before nine ball was changed to the ball in hand rules the players had to be ball makers first and formost because there wasn't any ball in hand to bail you out from a bad spot, if you could make the shot and you knew your opponent could not you had the nutts and that was just the way it was!! The rule changes effected the game in a neg. way in my opinion by taking away the better pool players biggist adantage his ability to see and make shots.

Theory (2nd part)

Today american pool players face many things that keep them from performing as their mentors and heros did! Pool players are know to harness multipule bad habits to go with pool and thru the years they are easier and more abundunt than in the past. Examples, casino's, poker, slotmachines, bookmakers, drugs, golf, women, men, phones, and the list goes on!!! and a pool players priortiy's are screwed up 90 percent of the time. Not necessarily is it all their fault because of the inablity to make a money playing the game they look for other ways to score. The funny part is that pool players are under the mentality that they would rather play pool and make the easy money than get a job and make real money for working, what they don't know is the hustling pool is hard work much like playing poker but wihtout the possiblity of hitting a homerun for millions.
A top pool player today may stay in the pool room for hours on end for a period of time 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, maybe as long as 10 years, but that is tops and to beat the best you must be more didicated than your opponent and this will not get it done!!!

Theory (3rd part)

The opponent (phillippino's) start out with nothing and i mean nothing go to work in the pool hall as a kid sweeping up or some type of gofer work. At each oppertunity they pick up a stick and hit balls, they watch the best players in the world hit balls and stay in action daily, they see the time that it takes to be the best. They don't suffer the distractions of their counterparts in the USA. No money to play poker, golf, slotmachines, etc. they see only one way out and that is to beat the best and get a ticket to make it playing the only game they know POOL!!!!!!!!

Conclusion:

Phillippion's are the top of the game (THE BEST)


My theory in text,

Thanks, Tommy
Click to expand...

they play each other.
they help each other.
 
I personally think the Taiwanese players are the best. I think the main reason the USA is slipping in the ranks fast is because the places like Taiwan and the Philipines have players who commit themselves alot more to pool then people in the USA do these days for the most part.

Kids in school in Taiwan who show a natural talent at pool spend half of their school day playing pool as a mandatory part of their day. Kids in the USA who do that get caught and reprimanded for skipping school. Kids in Taiwan are sponsored into events and encouraged to compete at the top level. Kids in the USA who want to do that have to beg borrow or steal in order to get enough money to go to an event and compete and even then are lucky to get the time off in what is considered a waste of time to most Americans.

In all honesty the game has zero respect in America and that gives anyone who wants to actually play it at a top level in America a very hard road to travel. There is virtually no support for up and coming players in America when you compare the resources and support that a young player in Taiwan receives and there is no respect or love for the game that creates a huge pool of competition such as exists in the Philipines. Most of the great pool players in America and even Europe who want to get better go to the Philipines because that place gives you endless competition and challenges to hone your game rather then sitting in a pool hall in America drinking a coke and having noone want to play.
 
real bartram said:
they play each other.
they help each other.
Click to expand...

I agree with this alot. I agree with some other things said in this thread also. Lets face it, American's for the most part are lazy people anymore who want something for nothing.

It would be nice if somehow there would be a nice sponsor for pool and make it worthwhile to play for a living.
 
Because Jay fathered them all.

OK, I think it's because being a lock artist is disgraceful down there.
 
I think it's because as someone mentioned they play each other and help each other. Also pool is looked down upon in the U.S. It's still looked at by the non pool playing public as a seedy game played by low lifes. To give an example, I was once in a Starbucks with a friend and his brother, neither of which play pool at all. As we're leaving Tony Robles walks in (it was right near Amsterdam Billiards) and I say hello and a few words and then we leave. I comment to my friend and his brother that Robles is a professional pool player and they just look at me with amused looks and say "what do you mean professional?' And I say he plays on a tour and has won a major event and they still had these odd expressions on their faces. they even said the word "pool" like it was a dirty word. I really don't think pool will ever be taken seriously in the U.S.
 
Celtic said:
I personally think the Taiwanese players are the best. I think the main reason the USA is slipping in the ranks fast is because the places like Taiwan and the Philipines have players who commit themselves alot more to pool then people in the USA do these days for the most part.

Kids in school in Taiwan who show a natural talent at pool spend half of their school day playing pool as a mandatory part of their day. Kids in the USA who do that get caught and reprimanded for skipping school. Kids in Taiwan are sponsored into events and encouraged to compete at the top level. Kids in the USA who want to do that have to beg borrow or steal in order to get enough money to go to an event and compete and even then are lucky to get the time off in what is considered a waste of time to most Americans.

In all honesty the game has zero respect in America and that gives anyone who wants to actually play it at a top level in America a very hard road to travel. There is virtually no support for up and coming players in America when you compare the resources and support that a young player in Taiwan receives and there is no respect or love for the game that creates a huge pool of competition such as exists in the Philipines. Most of the great pool players in America and even Europe who want to get better go to the Philipines because that place gives you endless competition and challenges to hone your game rather then sitting in a pool hall in America drinking a coke and having noone want to play.
Click to expand...

What he said.
 
I've seen pool tables in some of the most remote and unlikely places in the country. Under a bridge in the middle of the city, in a slum area, beside a hut in a ricefield out in nowhere land without any electricity or running water, and in remote beaches overlooking the Pacific Ocean and South China sea. The list goes on and on. Of course there are hundreds of the more typical pool halls also. Filipinos simply love the game. With so many people that can play, the odds of coming up with some world class players are just higher compared to other countries.
 
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my two pesos . . .

poverty in the states in general, is nothing compared to poverty in the philippines.

i truely believe that the manner in which efren reyes achieved world wide success with such fanfare and flare. pretty much single handedly captured the imagination of young impressionable pool players all over the philippines. he inspired them to go an practice like mad men/women, and still does today.

its the same as when lebron james and kobe bryant saw michael jordan play growing up. it pushed them to practice every day on every aspect of their games so they could chase their dreams and be like mike.

right now this same phenomenon is happening with boxing because of Manny Pacquiao. i would bet on an even larger scale than pool.

my two pesos

kano
 
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Chris is right if you want to be the best playing top cometition is a great way to get there and the willingness of the phillippino players to share imformation is a ticket for continued success of producing world champions. The US lacks the support system or the committiment to pool for our kids or amateur players to grow into world class players. This is not entirely suprising to most of us because football, basketball, baseball, soccer, tennis, and golf of course pay millions to their elite players. Pool well enough said!!!!

I am suprised that no one has responed to the changes in our game no roll outs(other than after the break) no three foul rule, ball in hand as opposed to spotting balls and shooting from behind the line, etc. What effect it has had good or bad.

Also, I purposely didn't mention players in particular other than Buddy in hopes of getting some responeses on who you guys new and how they got to be a world class of players.
 
If you expect one simple end all answer, you are sadly mistaken.

There are a lot of valid arguments in this thread, but it answer is probably something in line with most of the opinions here.

In my opinion, America doesn't play as much as the rest of world because...there isn't any real money in the game. Efren grew up in the Philippines and the cost of living is very cheap. To come to America and win $25,000 and return is huge. He could probably support his family on that for a few years...comfortably. In America, the cost of living and the potential of earning is a lot greater.

Let's do the math. In a good year, the top pro in pool will make $125K. Good money right? ...except the losers (the 15th greatest player and less in the world wins $30,000 and lower) ...poverty. Why would anyone play (as an only source of income)?

I believe that almost all of the top players could make more money in a different occupation than pool. I believe they are a brilliant group of talented guys and gals, but have sold them selves short on live because of their love or addiction to the game and the gamble.

I'm not faulting them or commending them, it is what it is.

A great example is George Breedlove from Indianapolis. He is married to JL and owns his own business. Only the the big money that the IPT offered did he come out of retirement. He did very well in the IPT, but hasn't been seen much since. He truly loves the game like we all do, but has his priorities straight in MHO.

The bottom line is it's not really worth the effort compared to the potential value of anything someone would decide to do.
 
tommywhsl1 said:
In the 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's, thru the early 80's the best pool players in the world came from right here in the good old USA. What happened?
Click to expand...

Realize that well into the 70's pool was almost exclusively an American game. Pool tables found in other countries were located mostly in American military bases. It's no wonder the top players were Americans.

As far as the Phillipines go, they didn't have a ton of great players before Efren Reyes (none that I know of anyway). This was likely because under president Ferdinand Marcos there was hardly any pool/billiard halls in the country - just one in Manila according to John Grissim, author of Billiards, Hustlers and Heroes, Legends and Lies and the Search for Higher Truth on the Green Felt.

After Efren made a big splash on the pool scene in the mid 80's, he became a household name in the Phillipines. Many youngsters wanted to be like Efren and took to the game in a big way. Add to this the popularity of Rotation and 3-cushion billiards in the country and you get monster players who compete against each other on a regular basis. Twenty five years later, we see Filipinos dominating the game.

This is my take on the whole thing. I could be all wrong. I often am.
 
The game having more respect in other countries is a good point. Other countries seem to embrace stuff as a national sport that americans would probably snicker at (cricket, volleyball, ping pong, starcraft?! etc.) They can put this stuff on TV and people eat it up. Americans just can't seem to care, maybe because of the lack of acrobatics and heavy hits.

With more respect comes more official support, like what Taiwan does. I hear germany also has bigtime support in the form of huge leagues that players will join at an early age.

Something else that sort of makes sense is the poverty angle. The payouts in pool majors are nothing compared to golf etc. and mostly we look down on the amount of money you can make playing pro pool in the USA. But that much money goes a long way in the phillipines. Mentally, if you're filipino, when you hear 20,000 USD, you're thinking of an amount of money that buys 40,000 or even 100,000 dollars worth of stuff. You're living large with 20k. It's still not easy flying somewhere and trying to beat the best in the world, but at least it's worth it.
 
The answer is actually very simple. Due to the increased popularity of the game in the Phillipines there are more people becoming serious players than in the US. Therefore they will have more professionals joining the touring ranks.

It's a numbers game more than anything. It's not a coincidence that the country where a game is extremely popular tends to produce the most top players. It's like Canada and hockey, we have a small population but we still are dominant in the game.

Certainly the are some other factors, with more top players around it's easier for someone to get exposure to the top level and get instruction. But numbers are probably the largest part.
 
Pool is a living and a very good one for hundreds, possibly thousands of players in the Philippines. The standard wage here is between 250 and 350 pesos a day in the more developed cities. That equates to probably $5-7.

There are action games in every pool hall every night for generally 500-1000 dollars. The players normally have a sponsor and receive between 20 and 30% if they win.

Many grade b players make 20 times the average wage just playing pool. In the UK and US only the very top players can make a full time living, and even then in a good year minus expenses they might make twice average income.

Pool players here are relatively very rich.
 
tommywhsl1 said:
In the 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's, thru the early 80's the best pool players in the world came from right here in the good old USA. What happened?

Theory (1st part)

In the time before 1940 and thru the early 80's (Buddy Hall) pool was not a sport of liesure to top players but a life. The routine was get up in the morning go to the pool hall hit balls (practice) until you were tired, take a break for a lunch, picture show, etc. and back to the pool hall for more practice or the days action. The next day start again by waking up heading to the pool hall to hit balls and so on and on. This happened 7 days a week 8 to 10 hours a day sometimes longer. Practice, practice, practice, gamble, practice, gamble, play on to scratch out a days/weeks/years money! Good guys, bad guys, crooks, cons they were all in the pool rooms looking for a score. Jay H. has many stories in his book, accounts of players and things he has seen! So he is one that can atest to the fact that if you want to be the best you must be more decated than the rest. That is why american pool players were the best during these years because they wanted it more, were willing to go past what was needed to get there. Proof is that during these years their wasn't just one player that could run 120, etc and out playing straight pool, but a hand full that all did on a regular basis. Today on personally don't know of more than one or two in the world that play at that speed. Of course this was before accustat and before nine ball was changed to the ball in hand rules the players had to be ball makers first and formost because there wasn't any ball in hand to bail you out from a bad spot, if you could make the shot and you knew your opponent could not you had the nutts and that was just the way it was!! The rule changes effected the game in a neg. way in my opinion by taking away the better pool players biggist adantage his ability to see and make shots.

Theory (2nd part)

Today american pool players face many things that keep them from performing as their mentors and heros did! Pool players are know to harness multipule bad habits to go with pool and thru the years they are easier and more abundunt than in the past. Examples, casino's, poker, slotmachines, bookmakers, drugs, golf, women, men, phones, and the list goes on!!! and a pool players priortiy's are screwed up 90 percent of the time. Not necessarily is it all their fault because of the inablity to make a money playing the game they look for other ways to score. The funny part is that pool players are under the mentality that they would rather play pool and make the easy money than get a job and make real money for working, what they don't know is the hustling pool is hard work much like playing poker but wihtout the possiblity of hitting a homerun for millions.
A top pool player today may stay in the pool room for hours on end for a period of time 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, maybe as long as 10 years, but that is tops and to beat the best you must be more didicated than your opponent and this will not get it done!!!

Theory (3rd part)

The opponent (phillippino's) start out with nothing and i mean nothing go to work in the pool hall as a kid sweeping up or some type of gofer work. At each oppertunity they pick up a stick and hit balls, they watch the best players in the world hit balls and stay in action daily, they see the time that it takes to be the best. They don't suffer the distractions of their counterparts in the USA. No money to play poker, golf, slotmachines, etc. they see only one way out and that is to beat the best and get a ticket to make it playing the only game they know POOL!!!!!!!!

Conclusion:

Phillippion's are the top of the game (THE BEST)


My theory in text,

Thanks, Tommy
Click to expand...
There are a lot of valid points on this post. Here are a couple more to consider.........
1) Many times they will play in terrible conditions from what we are used to at a quality room. Ie, playing outside in the extreme humidity. (this being said it must be quite a treat for them to play in "tournament conditions" here in the states.
2) none of them seem to be overweight and in relatively good health, so endurance is not much of a factor (same for Taiwan)
3) Vision better? I can not recall seing any of them wearing corrective lenses.
4) perhaps most important, they consider pool a major sport as we view baseball or football. This being said I would assume children are exposed to our sport at a younger age and even encouraged to exceed.
 
One more thing.... the preferred game is rotation, so they probably view a 9- ball or even 10-ball relatively simple in comparison.
 
jason said:
If you expect one simple end all answer, you are sadly mistaken.

There are a lot of valid arguments in this thread, but it answer is probably something in line with most of the opinions here.

In my opinion, America doesn't play as much as the rest of world because...there isn't any real money in the game. Efren grew up in the Philippines and the cost of living is very cheap. To come to America and win $25,000 and return is huge. He could probably support his family on that for a few years...comfortably. In America, the cost of living and the potential of earning is a lot greater.

Let's do the math. In a good year, the top pro in pool will make $125K. Good money right? ...except the losers (the 15th greatest player and less in the world wins $30,000 and lower) ...poverty. Why would anyone play (as an only source of income)?

I believe that almost all of the top players could make more money in a different occupation than pool. I believe they are a brilliant group of talented guys and gals, but have sold them selves short on live because of their love or addiction to the game and the gamble.

I'm not faulting them or commending them, it is what it is.

A great example is George Breedlove from Indianapolis. He is married to JL and owns his own business. Only the the big money that the IPT offered did he come out of retirement. He did very well in the IPT, but hasn't been seen much since. He truly loves the game like we all do, but has his priorities straight in MHO.

The bottom line is it's not really worth the effort compared to the potential value of anything someone would decide to do.
Click to expand...



What he said. Great post.

Also in addition to this post, is the game of rotation and constant gambling with each other everynight.
 
I think alot of it is american greed too. Over here we pay for information that is just passed along in other countries.
 
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