Why can't I tranfer spin on this shot?

C

CueAndMe

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I recently met someone who doesn't believe that spin-induced throw exists. He said that when the object ball is redirected, it's because you're subconsciously cutting the ball.
Well, in order to create a situation to prove its existence, I came up with the following shot(2 pages). But to my surprise I couldn't alter the object ball's path with spin. I think it's because in order for the object ball's path to be altered, the cue ball's path must be free to be altered as well and the blocking 3-ball doesn't allow it to be.
Am I right about this?

CueTable Help

 
It's probably not worth the trouble trying to prove something to someone that doesn't want to learn.
 
I'll let the experts comment on this shot, but I think a typical example is to freeze two balls together where not quite dead as a combination, then cut that same combination one direction, then the other (i.e. cut it left first, then right). The two shots result in much different end point for the object ball being combo'ed.

Edit: Now that I read your post again, I'm talking about contact-induced throw
 
bluepepper said:
I recently met someone who doesn't believe that spin-induced throw exists. He said that when the object ball is redirected, it's because you're subconsciously cutting the ball.


CueTable Help

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If you can subconsciously cut a ball, then I'm going to start subconsciously making balls:grin:
 
Keep it simple, man. Do this one, hell, have him do it. This may not go in on every table, there are many variables on how much you can get that one ball to move but yeah, set it up straight down table, aim straight at it, load the CB up with left english and throw it into the corner pocket. Like I said, let him shoot it and see for himself. He's a moron if he thinks that spin induced throw doesn't exist. It's a powerful weapon to have at your disposal.
MULLY

CueTable Help

 
Jeff...It's not that it doesn't exist...it does. However, the AMOUNT of sidespin transfer you can induce, between the CB & OB, is neglible. On top of that, certain conditions have to exist (dirty balls, for example), for it to happen much at all. Your friend is quite correct, in that, for most circumstances, where there appears to be S-I-T, the CB is merely striking a different place on the CB (due to squirt/deflection), than a straight line shot would produce (as in your diagram).

For the record, this issue is a can-o'-worms, and I'm not going to get into an argument over it, with the folks who believe the opposite.:D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

bluepepper said:
I recently met someone who doesn't believe that spin-induced throw exists. He said that when the object ball is redirected, it's because you're subconsciously cutting the ball.
Well, in order to create a situation to prove its existence, I came up with the following shot(2 pages). But to my surprise I couldn't alter the object ball's path with spin. I think it's because in order for the object ball's path to be altered, the cue ball's path must be free to be altered as well and the blocking 3-ball doesn't allow it to be.
Am I right about this?

CueTable Help

Click to expand...
 
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mullyman...In order for your diagrammed shot to prove anything, the CB would have to remain on the contact point with the OB...which is obviously not going to happen. The LEAST the CB will do, on this shot, is move to the left, probably down the tangent line, a few inches, depending on the stroke speed.

Scott Lee ~ not a moron by any means
www.poolknowledge.com

mullyman said:
Keep it simple, man. Do this one, hell, have him do it. This may not go in on every table, there are many variables on how much you can get that one ball to move but yeah, set it up straight down table, aim straight at it, load the CB up with left english and throw it into the corner pocket. Like I said, let him shoot it and see for himself. He's a moron if he thinks that spin induced throw doesn't exist. It's a powerful weapon to have at your disposal.
MULLY

CueTable Help

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Throw shots are friction and don't depend on english on the cue ball.

Transfer of spin exists. Hit a cross side bank hard and a little long with running english. It will back up with the reverse it picked up from the cue ball. It was ont of the Fat man's standard trick shots.
 
bluepepper said:
I recently met someone who doesn't believe that spin-induced throw exists. He said that when the object ball is redirected, it's because you're subconsciously cutting the ball.
Well, in order to create a situation to prove its existence, I came up with the following shot(2 pages). But to my surprise I couldn't alter the object ball's path with spin. I think it's because in order for the object ball's path to be altered, the cue ball's path must be free to be altered as well and the blocking 3-ball doesn't allow it to be.
Am I right about this?

CueTable Help

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Maybe you've proven it doesn't exist. Or you've proven why he doesn't think it exists. Or, you've proven to the world that there isn't as much spin transfer as people might think. The small amount is enough to alter banks, however.

More than likely, you've hit it too soft such that the spin is gone by the time it hits the rail. Or, in your effort to stop the ball, you didn't realize the object ball has to be cut a hair in order for the cueball to stop dead, the object ball goes slightly to the right (assuming right hand english here with a hair cut to the right), and the spin (slight left hand spin) banks the object ball back to the cueball rather than past the cueball on the left.



You could go to Dr. Dave's sight and point to a video. (NV A.21)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PGXUld5A24

Fred
 
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suckershot said:
jasonlaus said:
It's probably not worth the trouble trying to prove something to someone that doesn't want to learn.
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That's probably the best answer.
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It's obvious the other guy had enough interest to learn, or else allowing someone to try to show him wasn't going to happen. So, it's now the guy's fault because he doesn't believe it, and another person isn't able to demonstrate it???

Fred <~~~ thinks there's something ironic about this line of thinking
 
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Scott Lee said:
mullyman...In order for your diagrammed shot to prove anything, the CB would have to remain on the contact point with the OB...which is obviously not going to happen. The LEAST the CB will do, on this shot, is move to the left, probably down the tangent line, a few inches, depending on the stroke speed.

Scott Lee ~ not a moron by any means
www.poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...


Alright, Scott, how about this then?

CueTable Help


Balls are touching and you can throw that one ball pretty far to the right or left over the length of the table. I agree with you 100% about dirty balls etc... that's exactly what I meant in my first post about many variables.
MULLY
 
bluepepper said:
I recently met someone who doesn't believe that spin-induced throw exists. ...
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Also on that side are Mike Sigel and Irving Crane.

It helps to know that you don't want to leave the cue ball spinning like a top. The faster the cue ball is spinning -- after a point -- the less throw you get and the less spin is transferred. Start with a quarter-tip. This is covered in Dr. Dave's stuff.

Another point to remember is that if the object ball is thrown, it will also have transferred side spin in direct proportion to the angle of throw.
 
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mullyman said:
Keep it simple, man. Do this one, hell, have him do it. This may not go in on every table, there are many variables on how much you can get that one ball to move but yeah, set it up straight down table, aim straight at it, load the CB up with left english and throw it into the corner pocket. Like I said, let him shoot it and see for himself. He's a moron if he thinks that spin induced throw doesn't exist. It's a powerful weapon to have at your disposal.
MULLY

CueTable Help

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He's trying to show spin transfer, not spin-induced throw. Of course the two are related, but the OP is looking for a shot that isolates spin transfer. Neither of yours do.

{edit: my mistake or his mistake: the title was transfer of spin, but the meat of the post was about spin induced throw.}

In your diagram, the cueball still moves significantly to one side. In the OP's post, it looked like he wanted to keep the cueball in line and not drive into the balls on the right.

Fred
 
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Jeff, I know your question, and can tell you that you can indeed change the path of the OB with english. I've tried to show you how to place the cue stick in relation to the shot, some call this parallel english, I don't know or want to know about other styles. This is what I am used to and how I'm explaining it to you.

The stroke is a VERY GENTILE "nip / touch" stroke with an ever so slightly elevated butt. Enough to get the CB twisting counter clockwise.

Using this stroke I can easily diverge the OB to the line I've drawn even with the interfering balls.


CueTable Help

 
SIT and CIT

Paul Dayton said:
Throw shots are friction and don't depend on english on the cue ball.
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You are right about friction creating throw. The same friction also creates spin transfer; and, as Bob pointed out, the more throw you get, the more spin transfer you get. Friction can be created by cut angle (CIT) or spin (SIT). For more info, see:


Regards,
Dave
 
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