Why can't Shane win a major tournament outside USA?

[Petros Andrikop]

The comparison between Tennis and Pool is not appropiate, I would compare alternate break format to allowing Tennis players serve from a closer distance, thus eliminating the best player's ability to throw aces since the inferior player can do that too from a closer distance almost as much.

Alternate break format indeed needs strong mental game, but we shouldn't forget the old days.

How can you compare the pressure today with the one we had years ago playing against pro level players, when you knew the other guy could run a few racks, and you coming cold from your chair only to play from safety position?...

How can you compare the pressure today with the one we had playing well, being ahead a few racks and trying to make a tough shot knowing it still could be our last turn at the table?...

How can you compare the amount of work needed both in technical and in the mental side too in order to step up and face that huge amount of pressure, trying to overcome it?...

Today no matter what happens the pro will make a max. run of... 1... something that non pro players can do too...

Alternate formats and other similar changes were only made to give a chance to inferior players to win against superior ones, because there was a time when superior players won everything and the generation coming after them was either not too talented (doubt it) or too lazy to work really hard (most probably), and that led to less participations and so on.

Pros and tournament directors had their part in it too since since most of the times they didn't manage to distribute well tournament profits in order to allow good players to win back some, being able to follow tournaments.

Every sport is unique and run of a few racks was the unique feature of Pool that is missing today, now with no reason since the average level is high, participations are taking up again, and there are still ways to "block" runs with the use of box, combined with longer races in order to have equal chances for both players. There are still ways to maintain a "star" image for the pros, something to give motivation for the young kids, and this is only through "protecting" the better playing.

Nowdays anybody can win against anybody, most of the pros have much less profit and respect, and this along with other reasons takes away interest from players-lovers of the game who would be willing to go through the hard road in order to reach the best, they have almost nothing to look up to anymore and it's boring too for the spectators, even tournament players rarely watch an entire match now.

Nobody can predict the future, but with this kind of approach in a decade we may see in competitive Pool more casual players than regular tournament players, and that certainly isn't something we'd like to look forward too...

Petros

 

[arps]

That's for sure.....these tournaments are more about luck than skill. The best player (Shane) is probably at a disadvantage considering the rules, equipment and format. That "magical rack" turns the game into a bad joke....I feel sorry for the players.

I "tried" to watch on of the matches last night and it was impossible (to stay awake/enthused).....what have they done to our game for goodness sake???

i watched shane smother Li Hewen 9-1. that was not luck. Li missed a lot because his cue ball preparation sucked most of the time. shane took advantage of it.

shane did not perform his best during the Wu match, but Wu played worse and shane strived to play more consistently, and he won. that was not luck.

i watched dennis and carlo's quarter finals match. both made consistent break-run-outs, but carlo played the safeties and kick shots better. dennis made sure that carlo does not take the lead too far, and so the game went hill-hill though. that was not luck.

Lee Van lost to Chang Yu Lung. This guy from Taipei made sure that he'll win the rack everytime he broke, and lee van did the same. but Chang always looked for opportunities when it was Lee Van's turn to break, and took advantage when he finds one. that was not luck.

here's what i think - maybe Biado was just the better player. He got to the quarterfinals of this same tournament last year. He got to the semifinals of last year's World 9-ball (it was actually him who eliminated shane in the last-32). Everyone saw how Carlo performed when he went to the US.
instead of luck, bad luck, rules, equipment, format, alternate break, food, jetlag, etc., maybe we could commend the player because he outperformed another really good player.

 

[Celtic]

what I don't like is the luck factor is 5 times more than it should be.....and of course someone has to win anyway.

On that we can agree, but where would you go to remove the luck?

I have put out a TON of arguments to diminish luck in pool and push skill to a higher level. I was a "STRONG" supporter of the tight Fatboy rails on the TAR table and those tables REALLY separated the men from the boys. We saw Shane and Dennis and Alex maintain a phenomenal high degree of play on the tight pockets and we saw the second teir players like Oscar, Raj Hundal, and others struggle greatly on the tougher conditions. On those tight tables the break was marginalized to a degree because nothing was a given after the break, you still had to perform at an elite level to run out after a successful break. On the loose tables we often see the second teir pros are capable of getting out on a decent break most of the time and as such if they break well against a better player they can still win. On the tight tables it was simply not the case.

10-Foot tables with those same pockets? Now we are approaching where pro pool should truly probably be. You are simply not going to see weaker players win on a table like that. The DCC Bigfoot tournament really separated the elite from the second teir, we saw pros who can run out on a standard 9-foot struggle and miss due to the flaws in their strokes that normally do not affect them on easier equipment. Guys like Neils, Shane and Busty still managed to perform though and SVB ended up coming through in the end.

You want truly low luck pool that could actually get some more fans watching the game? Put pro pool on a 10-foot Diamond table with properly cut 4 inch pockets and make the game 8-ball. Race to 11 under those conditions and rest assured only the best players will win events, the weaker players with poorer fundamentals will be shown for what they are right quick.

But, as much as that IS the way pool should go into the future the people in charge wont take that chance, instead we get a massive amount of money and effort into friggin Bonus Ball... If the same efforts and cash had been spent on what I said above pool would be WAY farther ahead today then it is now.

 

[arps]

The only thing these events need is a slightly longer race and a "win by two" clause so people who win the lag cannot beat people by running out on each of their breaks. You should HAVE to "break serve" or win on the other guys break at least once in a set to win.

very evident on Corteza-Chang Yu Lung match in the quarterfinals. both made sure they win the rack they break. they were very consistent until the score was 7 or 8. if i remember it correctly, the turning point was when Chang took Lee Van's push and was able to put a really good counter-safety. after that Chang was able to run the rack, and the next one which was his break.

 

[HelloBaby-]

Actually this year the pockets are pretty small. And I saw Rodney Morris miss a few easy hanger, I guess that's because the cloth is too slick or the balls are too clean.
If it's so easy why american players can't do that "easy" thing ? And you mean unamerican players can do the "easy" that american players cannot ? Easy easy, easy but they keep missing and got beaten.

And stop the BS about american players are better in strategy, all you can say is if you can rack your own play your game you will beat anybody, is that not a "favor" thing for american player, so you mean it's not normal to get everything neutral, because it favors "unamerican", you mean they have to play in the american way so it's gonna be fair ??? COMPLETELY BS.
It's like a crying baby saying : come to my house, play with my toy I'll beat you LOL.
Everything over there are neutral, so stop the BS about what favor who, it's completely non sense.

Shane is the only one up there with others top pros in the world talking about every aspect of the game. He has an equal chance to win as many others, so the odd is small for him as for others. Almost impossible to predict the winner. It's because the level of play is too high, nothing to do with the playing condition, you put it double elimination and winner break it's gonna be the same.

With the rack they're using they have to cut the break and the corner ball is automatic. This greatly neurtalizes the advantages the best players have and favors the "unamerican" players. The tables are also very, very easy with slick cloth and larger pockets.....you put all these factors together and you get a "crap shoot" that has all the excitement of "lawn mowing" championships. :boring:

Pool without strategy is brutally boring, and it doesn't have to be this way.....it can be totally different in a way that is exciting....and the appropriate changes must be made.
'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[chevybob20]

Since 2004 only one player has finished in the top two spots of the World NIne Ball Championships more than once (Ronnie Alcano). No one has repeated the victory and only one player has placed in the top two more than once. So why is it such a big deal for Shane but not any other top player in the last 10 years?

Anyone in the top 10 could have won this tourney. The alternating break format and short-ish race is the great equalizer. I'm not complaining, I actually enjoyed the format. (I would get rid of the majic rack if a neutral racker is used.)

For the record, I watched the match last night and Shane looked strong. In fact, he ran out like water most of the time and won amost every safety battle. I wonder why Wu was so nervous that he missed easy shots?

 

[HelloBaby-]

Since 2004 only one player has finished in the top two spots of the World NIne Ball Championships more than once (Ronnie Alcano). No one has repeated the victory and only one player has placed in the top two more than once. So why is it such a big deal for Shane but not any other top player in the last 10 years?

Anyone in the top 10 could have won this tourney. The alternating break format and short-ish race is the great equalizer. I'm not complaining, I actually enjoyed the format. (I would get rid of the majic rack if a neutral racker is used.)

For the record, I watched the match last night and Shane looked strong. In fact, he ran out like water most of the time and won amost every safety battle. I wonder why Wu was so nervous that he missed easy shots?

Exactly, why is such a big deal. Only losers looking for excuses. Just enjoys great pool and cheers for Shane, he's gonna be there one day.
Magic rack and neutral racker is needed to keep everything neutral and fair. But I love to see the rule like it's is in the last Mosconi Cup: 9 ball on the spot, small break box, hard break asked and no cut break.

 

[spartan]

and wasnt he world 10 ball champion? that has a completely different format to suit the superior player.

That is urban legend. Shane won the 2007 UPA 10 ball championship (Florida) which was not WPA World championship. Also that event was played on smaller 8 ft table instead of professional 9 ft. That event was not an official World Championship. If Shane had really won World 10 ball championship, you think anyone would be doubting his international tournament record? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten-ball#2007
Shane's best finish in World 10 ball was in 1st WPA World 10 ball when finished last 16
In 2011, he finished last 32

there were quite a few undeniable factors mentioned:

- jet lag
- food
- format
- etc

format is a point for sure. double eliminition ensures shane always a second chance in the tourney. So they top player has to be beaten twice by weaker players... there is anyway a significant below 50%-chance for weaker players beating shane. to do that twice is much less likely.

i wud like to throw in an other argument and see what u guys think about it: INTIMIDATION FACTOR! At later stages in US tourneys there is pretty much the same couple of dozen players battling it out among them. I say all of them have a negative head-to-head against shane. We all know, u shud not change ur game depending on the opponent but play the percentages. but experience taught us otherwise in many cases. if u play a guy for the 10th time and u have won only once and mainly by luck or the other having a bad day... it is very hard to go into that much being convinced to win this time.

when shane is going abroad, many of the players dont know shane that well and havent played him much or even ever. So shane loses his intimidation factor. combining this with the factors mentioned above and his obvious inability to adapt as easy as other cosmopolitan players.. é voilà we get to where we are. shane getting usually to the last 16 of wpa events but not winning much.

I am convinced that if shane was to battle it out against ANY player in the world over an entire week, various disciplines, short and long sets, alternate, winner-break and whatever... shane wud prevail over almost all of them. maybe alex and dennis cud have a slight edge but i cannot think of anyone else.

I predict that in 30 years, shane will rival efren's status as the greatest to have ever picked up the cue!

Please elaborate
bicki

4 Words- Whining, Excuses, Sore losers.
Other players from outside home country also face same issues

That is BS. If you look at the players that got through to the knockout stage and who have gone deep in the event they certainly represent the elite of the field. There were some weak players in the event (relative to the other players in the field) and they did not get very far. Everyone that got out of their brackets were for the most part the guys you expected to.

The only thing these events need is a slightly longer race and a "win by two" clause so people who win the lag cannot beat people by running out on each of their breaks. You should HAVE to "break serve" or win on the other guys break at least once in a set to win.

The whole momentum argument is BS. What winner breaks causes is one person to get benched and not be able to counterattack at all when their opponent gets hot. Imagine tennis where winners kept the serve, guy would serve out entire matches without an opponent being able to break serve and get their own chance to get the advantage of the serve. Pool with winner breaks in short races has the same problem, guys get control right off the hop and can shut their opponent down without the opponent being able to do much about it. The last couple US Open 9-balls were a freaking joke with rack your own and winner breaks, the one where SVB beat Alex with his gimpy rack was a complete joke, and Alex KNEW what SVB was doing to the rack and complained to Jay and was basically told to sit down and deal with it. That shit wrecks pool.

+++1 Good points.
Many of those making lame excuses for Shane are actually doing him a disservice. Shane himself is not whining - it is his overeager fanboys who are making it worse by trying to justify the monkey on his back. I have no doubr Shane will be world champion it is just a matter of when. Like Buste who for decades had monkey on his back of not winning WC and few years ago finally won W9B

i watched shane smother Li Hewen 9-1. that was not luck. Li missed a lot because his cue ball preparation sucked most of the time. shane took advantage of it.

shane did not perform his best during the Wu match, but Wu played worse and shane strived to play more consistently, and he won. that was not luck.

i watched dennis and carlo's quarter finals match. both made consistent break-run-outs, but carlo played the safeties and kick shots better. dennis made sure that carlo does not take the lead too far, and so the game went hill-hill though. that was not luck.

Lee Van lost to Chang Yu Lung. This guy from Taipei made sure that he'll win the rack everytime he broke, and lee van did the same. but Chang always looked for opportunities when it was Lee Van's turn to break, and took advantage when he finds one. that was not luck.

here's what i think - maybe Biado was just the better player. He got to the quarterfinals of this same tournament last year. He got to the semifinals of last year's World 9-ball (it was actually him who eliminated shane in the last-32). Everyone saw how Carlo performed when he went to the US.
instead of luck, bad luck, rules, equipment, format, alternate break, food, jetlag, etc., maybe we could commend the player because he outperformed another really good player.

++++1 Good post

Actually this year the pockets are pretty small. And I saw Rodney Morris miss a few easy hanger, I guess that's because the cloth is too slick or the balls are too clean.
If it's so easy why american players can't do that "easy" thing ? And you mean unamerican players can do the "easy" that american players cannot ? Easy easy, easy but they keep missing and got beaten.

And stop the BS about american players are better in strategy, all you can say is if you can rack your own play your game you will beat anybody, is that not a "favor" thing for american player, so you mean it's not normal to get everything neutral, because it favors "unamerican", you mean they have to play in the american way so it's gonna be fair ??? COMPLETELY BS.
It's like a crying baby saying : come to my house, play with my toy I'll beat you LOL.
Everything over there are neutral, so stop the BS about what favor who, it's completely non sense.

Shane is the only one up there with others top pros in the world talking about every aspect of the game. He has an equal chance to win as many others, so the odd is small for him as for others. Almost impossible to predict the winner. It's because the level of play is too high, nothing to do with the playing condition, you put it double elimination and winner break it's gonna be the same.

++++1 Good one LOL. Tell it to those crybabies :thumbup:

 

[jaycast16]

Honestly i like Shane a lot.I never seen anyone close to his break and i thought he is really a nice guy.But these guys who are whining,making excuses for Shane not winning the World title making me sick.I believe Shane is the best pool player in US.best player in the world?..he is just one of them.Give the guy a break and wait for his time to win it.

 

[bicki]

whining / crybabies / excuses

I dont really understand why people see it as whining, crying or whatever, if we try to establish influencing factors for shane's alleged underperformance abroad!? I find it a bit blunt to call food, sleep and personal comfort is for all the same. it is not true! I know people who are almost unbeatable on home turf, but play poorly on other tourneys. Also dealing with heat, high moisture in the air, sleep deprivation, have a bad mattress at the hotel, bio rythm. There is people who are naturally gifted to deal with these kind of issues much better than others.

Everyone of us had bad night of sleeps, a bad stomach or a sudden little pain int he back, and we still conquered the day. But we wud be lying if we said that our performance was top notch.

Not that i know it any better, but it might be that shane doesnt feel comfortable enough abroad to play to his full potential. Personally, I dont think that is the case. A couple of weeks back he played Niko Ekonomopoulos in Athens and he destroyed him. shane played perfect 10ball, absolutely lights out. A few years back, we invited shane to switzerland to our pool club, where he played a couple of days and later on in a challlenge 9ball match against our lokal stars. I never felt that shane had problems to adapt, didnt feel well or what else. Shane was very easy to handle, nice and friendly. A little shy even.

WPA events and big Asian tourneys are so tuff to win, shane's time will come eventually. There is at least 10 potential philippinos, 10 chinese, and killer players from japan, indonesia, thailand, korea to beat... let alone the Europeans. with relatively short races and early single elimination format with alternate break, the odds for shane to win like many other players are just mathematically unattractive. winning is almost a coin-toss and depending on one error too much or a lucky or bad roll.

 

[one stroke]

I dont really understand why people see it as whining, crying or whatever, if we try to establish influencing factors for shane's alleged underperformance abroad!? I find it a bit blunt to call food, sleep and personal comfort is for all the same. it is not true! I know people who are almost unbeatable on home turf, but play poorly on other tourneys. Also dealing with heat, high moisture in the air, sleep deprivation, have a bad mattress at the hotel, bio rythm. There is people who are naturally gifted to deal with these kind of issues much better than others.

Everyone of us had bad night of sleeps, a bad stomach or a sudden little pain int he back, and we still conquered the day. But we wud be lying if we said that our performance was top notch.

Not that i know it any better, but it might be that shane doesnt feel comfortable enough abroad to play to his full potential. Personally, I dont think that is the case. A couple of weeks back he played Niko Ekonomopoulos in Athens and he destroyed him. shane played perfect 10ball, absolutely lights out. A few years back, we invited shane to switzerland to our pool club, where he played a couple of days and later on in a challlenge 9ball match against our lokal stars. I never felt that shane had problems to adapt, didnt feel well or what else. Shane was very easy to handle, nice and friendly. A little shy even.

WPA events and big Asian tourneys are so tuff to win, shane's time will come eventually. There is at least 10 potential philippinos, 10 chinese, and killer players from japan, indonesia, thailand, korea to beat... let alone the Europeans. with relatively short races and early single elimination format with alternate break, the odds for shane to win like many other players are just mathematically unattractive. winning is almost a coin-toss and depending on one error too much or a lucky or bad roll.

It's a tough road to travel and the ones who can fade the distractions are the ones with the best chance of winning ,, it's far easier to win in a familiar surroundings with your home boys by your side where your best competition are the traveling ones who are slightly out of their element and you may or may not have to play them
This turny has no breaks every player can play , no dead money


1

 

[Inaction]

How long before the JR High types stop believing it's a big deal if Shane does not win overseas?

 

[Cardigan Kid]

I dont really understand why people see it as whining, crying or whatever, if we try to establish influencing factors for shane's alleged underperformance abroad!? I find it a bit blunt to call food, sleep and personal comfort is for all the same. it is not true! I know people who are almost unbeatable on home turf, but play poorly on other tourneys. Also dealing with heat, high moisture in the air, sleep deprivation, have a bad mattress at the hotel, bio rythm. There is people who are naturally gifted to deal with these kind of issues much better than others.

Everyone of us had bad night of sleeps, a bad stomach or a sudden little pain int he back, and we still conquered the day. But we wud be lying if we said that our performance was top notch.

Not that i know it any better, but it might be that shane doesnt feel comfortable enough abroad to play to his full potential. Personally, I dont think that is the case. A couple of weeks back he played Niko Ekonomopoulos in Athens and he destroyed him. shane played perfect 10ball, absolutely lights out. A few years back, we invited shane to switzerland to our pool club, where he played a couple of days and later on in a challlenge 9ball match against our lokal stars. I never felt that shane had problems to adapt, didnt feel well or what else. Shane was very easy to handle, nice and friendly. A little shy even.

WPA events and big Asian tourneys are so tuff to win, shane's time will come eventually. There is at least 10 potential philippinos, 10 chinese, and killer players from japan, indonesia, thailand, korea to beat... let alone the Europeans. with relatively short races and early single elimination format with alternate break, the odds for shane to win like many other players are just mathematically unattractive. winning is almost a coin-toss and depending on one error too much or a lucky or bad roll.

Well said. Gotta love the"Shane sucks overseas" camp asking why he underperforms, and you list obvious tournament formats that keep everyone else from winning, and they yell "stop whining".Haha

So if he wins a ten ball big foot challenge at derby city, the same camp will list their reasons and excuses of why he won but still not the best because he didn't win in China. So that to them isn't whining.

 

[sjm]

Well said. Gotta love the"Shane sucks overseas" camp asking why he underperforms, and you list obvious tournament formats that keep everyone else from winning, and they yell "stop whining".Haha

So if he wins a ten ball big foot challenge at derby city, the same camp will list their reasons and excuses of why he won but still not the best because he didn't win in China. So that to them isn't whining.

I like this post, because it takes note of the fact that Shane doesn't need double elimination to succeed over a very tough field like that it the Big Foot Challenge at the Derby this year. He was clearly the best in that event.

He'll have to make do in a single elimination format at the upcoming CSI US Open 10-ball event, which will be a much tougher field than that found at this year's Big Foot Challenge. In last year's US open 10-ball at the Rio, Wu and Ko and several other Asian superstars were in the field. Shane, I believe, came 13th.

I'd like to see Shane start winning the events in which all the stars of Europe and Asia are present. Within the next six weeks, he'll have both the World 9-ball Championship and the CSI US Open 10-ball in which the big names will all be present.

I wish him well in these two events and look forward to these events eagerly.

Finally, calling those of us who feel Shane's poor record in WPA events is a big hole I his professional resume "haters" is far less accurate than calling those who give him a free pass for it "delusional."

Shane is a superstar of the highest order, but until he wins over the very toughest fields on the planet, which are the ones found at WPA events, his place in history will be subject to debate.

Shane's day will come in the WPA World Championships. Have faith!

 

[arps]

Well said. Gotta love the"Shane sucks overseas" camp asking why he underperforms, and you list obvious tournament formats that keep everyone else from winning, and they yell "stop whining".Haha

So if he wins a ten ball big foot challenge at derby city, the same camp will list their reasons and excuses of why he won but still not the best because he didn't win in China. So that to them isn't whining.

no one denies that he's the best in the US. People are just "highlighting" that he cant win abroad, and that hes not the best in the world.

 

[strokin'myshaft]

So why is it such a big deal for Shane but not any other top player in the last 10 years?

It's a big deal, not to me, because everytime Shane wins a tournament in the US, no matter how obscure, some of his fans will proclaim him the best in the world. And yet he couldn't win a major tourney outside the US. But I really think it's only a matter of time before Shane wins one of these major world events.

 

[irock]

Is the World Pool Championship always played in the same country, or is it switched up, and if not, why?

 

[Cardigan Kid]

Is the World Pool Championship always played in the same country, or is it switched up, and if not, why?

On that note, wouldn't it just be thought of as a major? So wouldn't ones career be rated as how many majors has he won, like they do with golf with the classic Nicholas, tiger debate (who has more majors).

So how many major tournaments are there? Us open, world championship, Derby city, etc

If you win ten US opens and five masters in golf, are the critics saying you aren't the best in the world because you've never won the British open?

 

[arps]

Is the World Pool Championship always played in the same country, or is it switched up, and if not, why?

different countries. here, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_WPA_World_Nine-ball_champions

 

[victorl]

Someone needs to get the WC out of Doha so that it can get proper coverage and make it feel like a true World Championship caliber event again.