Why can't Shane win a major tournament outside USA?

They don't against Shane...

Bayawak said:
Can you explain how these Filipino players excel here under the same excuse?
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They don't...

They don't win any where near as often as Shane does here. No One Does...

Which is why he's leader on the money board year after year...

Jaden
 
First I want to make clear I don't mean to take off anything at all from Shane's value as a player, he is truly phenomenal and deserves every tournament he wins, without doubt one of the best players in the world. In terms of world titles he isn't but this can change in the future.
Before him coming to Athens, some of us mentioned the differerence in his results in/out of USA.
After him performing fantastic pool against Nikos in 10ball, race to 50, winner breaks, some people claimed he proved that he can play as good anywhere.
Let me offer my humble opinion, he doesn't have to prove anything, but at the same time let's not forget that he didn't win the Athens tournament and when he played against Nikos he was allowed to rack on his own.
Besides that I still believe it's best for the game to go back to winner break formats, I think that with today's break abilities and knowledge of racking by a number of top players racking on your own should not be allowed under any circumstances.
As for the rest of factors, as I mentioned earlier it won't be a surpise if he wins several world titles in the future, even with these formats a player like him can find out which fine details he can adjust to in order to overcome any problems.
But again, let's not forget that F. Bustamante played superb pool for a lot of years, even better than other world champions, and still in his prime he didn't win any until much later on.
Everything is relative in these cases, especially with today's formats.
Petros
 
Petros Andrikop said:
First I want to make clear I don't mean to take off anything at all from Shane's value as a player, he is truly phenomenal and deserves every tournament he wins, without doubt one of the best players in the world. In terms of world titles he isn't but this can change in the future.
Before him coming to Athens, some of us mentioned the differerence in his results in/out of USA.
After him performing fantastic pool against Nikos in 10ball, race to 50, winner breaks, some people claimed he proved that he can play as good anywhere.
Let me offer my humble opinion, he doesn't have to prove anything, but at the same time let's not forget that he didn't win the Athens tournament and when he played against Nikos he was allowed to rack on his own.
Besides that I still believe it's best for the game to go back to winner break formats, I think that with today's break abilities and knowledge of racking by a number of top players racking on your own should not be allowed under any circumstances.
As for the rest of factors, as I mentioned earlier it won't be a surpise if he wins several world titles in the future, even with these formats a player like him can find out which fine details he can adjust to in order to overcome any problems.
But again, let's not forget that F. Bustamante played superb pool for a lot of years, even better than other world champions, and still in his prime he didn't win any until much later on.
Everything is relative in these cases, especially with today's formats.
Petros
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I agree with you sir.
Just because he's no.1 in the U.S it doesn't mean he has to win anywhere. People in the U.S think of Shane like a God and if he loses its because of bla bla. Noone admit the truth that when Shane walk in the China Open, hes just one of many top pro, he doesn't and never will have the "I'm invincible" feeling like when he walk in a U.S tourney.
He's already one of the best in the world, and that's all. No big deal, no surprise that he cannot win a big tourney as China Open, actually 5th is a nice finish already. Didn't anyone make an excuse for Tom Dwan not winning any Bracelet ? Yet he's one of the best.
 
Jaden said:
They don't...

They don't win any where near as often as Shane does here. No One Does...

Which is why he's leader on the money board year after year...

Jaden
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Exactly. Shane will always suffer from the Peyton manning syndrome. Payton wins one super bowl, and everyone asks "well why not two?" Shane will win an international tournament and everyone will ask "well, why not two".

It's the price of being at the top
 
Nullus said:
It's not like the same players are winning or dominating over there. The format just doesn't support it. It breeds parity and SVB, like everyone else, is limited by the format. If that ever changes, he's most likely dominate abroad just like he does here. He's the best player in the world, but everyone is susceptible to the "someone has to win, and someone has to lose" theory and some days others are just better. I don't see them changing the format any time soon. They probably love the parity and the chance it gives their home players at winning. Personally, the draw seemed a bit off for me watching the matchups. Seemed like a lot of 'outside' players from the States, Canada, and elsewhere ended up playing each other early on, limiting the odds of there being an all outsider championship. It's China though, so no real surprise there.
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Sir,
Do you really believe that the Organizers of the China Open manipulated the draw, out of malice towards the '"outside" Players :D ???
Or was your opinion a well mannered joke :thumbup: ;) ???
 
It's simple.

Most players who win tournaments in the US from other countries actually stay in the US. They get a place to stay and get acclimated to their surroundings.

If SVB stayed in whatever country and settled in for a month he would surely snap off everything the same way he does here.

Basically it's too small of a sample size everyone is making it out to be, when they say" SVB went to China and lost"

Look at when he went to the Philippines. He stayed there and gambled and won over time.
 
WPA events have the toughest fields by far. Even the US Open doesn't bring all of the top Players into the mix.

As for Shane, I see his overseas futility as a very big deal. Appleton, Immonen, Orcullo, and Souquet win tournaments on all continents and each has multiple WPA titles in the modern era of super-killer fields.

it's never about format, for there's always a level playing field in WPA events and the cream always rises to the top.

Losing to Biado is nothing to be ashamed of, and Biado is also the guy who eliminated Shane from last year's World 9-ball Championship.. Biado is a stone cold killer, and that's one reason that Justin Befgman, who best him in the final at Hard Times in March, is going to be such an important player on our next Mosconi Team.

Shane is a great player who will be remembered as a legend, but several other stars of the game who regularly travel overseas to compete are far less dependent on home cooking than Shane, and far more capable of winning the huge purse WPA events that are also the most prestigious events on pool's calendar. Yes, that's a knock on Shane, but he is stlill young enough to do something about his poor record in the biggest WPA events. I reckon he'll break through at some point.
 
who really cares how shane does overseas? every time i watch it is always some gaffe cut break and in this tourney slop even counted, if donny mills would fly he'd probably win all of them
 
sjm said:
it's never about format, for there's always a level playing field in WPA events and the cream always rises to the top.
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The format has to have something to do with it. This tourney slop counts, alternating breaks, single elimination, etc.

thorsten and li both played with one loss - shane didnt. he would still be in this if it was a true double elimination format. so format has something to do with it.

and wasnt he world 10 ball champion? that has a completely different format to suit the superior player.
 
Cardigan Kid said:
The format has to have something to do with it. This tourney slop counts, alternating breaks, single elimination
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The format favors nobody and was pre-announced. Thorsten has won this event twice. The marksman that needs two bullets in his gun is less of a marksman than the one that needs just one.

Excuses, excuses, excuses. Why can the rest of the most elite fade the pressure that comes win the single elimination stages of WPA events but Shane can't?

Shane's day will come.
 
there were quite a few undeniable factors mentioned:

- jet lag
- food
- format
- etc

format is a point for sure. double eliminition ensures shane always a second chance in the tourney. So they top player has to be beaten twice by weaker players... there is anyway a significant below 50%-chance for weaker players beating shane. to do that twice is much less likely.

i wud like to throw in an other argument and see what u guys think about it: INTIMIDATION FACTOR! At later stages in US tourneys there is pretty much the same couple of dozen players battling it out among them. I say all of them have a negative head-to-head against shane. We all know, u shud not change ur game depending on the opponent but play the percentages. but experience taught us otherwise in many cases. if u play a guy for the 10th time and u have won only once and mainly by luck or the other having a bad day... it is very hard to go into that much being convinced to win this time.

when shane is going abroad, many of the players dont know shane that well and havent played him much or even ever. So shane loses his intimidation factor. combining this with the factors mentioned above and his obvious inability to adapt as easy as other cosmopolitan players.. é voilà we get to where we are. shane getting usually to the last 16 of wpa events but not winning much.

I am convinced that if shane was to battle it out against ANY player in the world over an entire week, various disciplines, short and long sets, alternate, winner-break and whatever... shane wud prevail over almost all of them. maybe alex and dennis cud have a slight edge but i cannot think of anyone else.

I predict that in 30 years, shane will rival efren's status as the greatest to have ever picked up the cue!

Please elaborate :)
bicki
 
bicki said:
there were quite a few undeniable factors mentioned:

- jet lag
- food
- format
- etc

format is a point for sure. double eliminition ensures shane always a second chance in the tourney. So they top player has to be beaten twice by weaker players... there is anyway a significant below 50%-chance for weaker players beating shane. to do that twice is much less likely.

i wud like to throw in an other argument and see what u guys think about it: INTIMIDATION FACTOR! At later stages in US tourneys there is pretty much the same couple of dozen players battling it out among them. I say all of them have a negative head-to-head against shane. We all know, u shud not change ur game depending on the opponent but play the percentages. but experience taught us otherwise in many cases. if u play a guy for the 10th time and u have won only once and mainly by luck or the other having a bad day... it is very hard to go into that much being convinced to win this time.

when shane is going abroad, many of the players dont know shane that well and havent played him much or even ever. So shane loses his intimidation factor. combining this with the factors mentioned above and his obvious inability to adapt as easy as other cosmopolitan players.. é voilà we get to where we are. shane getting usually to the last 16 of wpa events but not winning much.

I am convinced that if shane was to battle it out against ANY player in the world over an entire week, various disciplines, short and long sets, alternate, winner-break and whatever... shane wud prevail over almost all of them. maybe alex and dennis cud have a slight edge but i cannot think of anyone else.

I predict that in 30 years, shane will rival efren's status as the greatest to have ever picked up the cue!

Please elaborate :)
bicki
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Great post, absolutely agree.
Another question is why does Shane have to win a single elimination alternate break nine ball tourney to prove anything? He's already beat the field in ten ball in many tournaments, and we all know ten ball caters to the better player. So he is already a world beater IMHO of course.
 
I "tried" to watch on of the matches last night and it was impossible.

That's for sure.....these tournaments are more about luck than skill. The best player (Shane) is probably at a disadvantage considering the rules, equipment and format. That "magical rack" turns the game into a bad joke....I feel sorry for the players.

I "tried" to watch on of the matches last night and it was impossible (to stay awake/enthused).....what have they done to our game for goodness sake???


Johnson said:
who really cares how shane does overseas? every time i watch it is always some gaffe cut break and in this tourney slop even counted, if donny mills would fly he'd probably win all of them
Click to expand...
 
CJ Wiley said:
That's for sure.....these tournaments are more about luck than skill. The best player (Shane) is probably at a disadvantage considering the rules, equipment and format. That "magical rack" turns the game into a bad joke....I feel sorry for the players.

I "tried" to watch on of the matches last night and it was impossible (to stay awake/enthused).....what have they done to our game for goodness sake???
Click to expand...

Correct since he can't rack is own rack and pattern he's at disadvantage ,,
Ya pool has always been a sit on the edge of your seat drama kinda it use to remind me of sudden death hockey lord what have they do e :eek:


1
 
bicki said:
there were quite a few undeniable factors mentioned:

- jet lag
- food
- format
- etc

format is a point for sure. double eliminition ensures shane always a second chance in the tourney. So they top player has to be beaten twice by weaker players... there is anyway a significant below 50%-chance for weaker players beating shane. to do that twice is much less likely.

i wud like to throw in an other argument and see what u guys think about it: INTIMIDATION FACTOR! At later stages in US tourneys there is pretty much the same couple of dozen players battling it out among them. I say all of them have a negative head-to-head against shane. We all know, u shud not change ur game depending on the opponent but play the percentages. but experience taught us otherwise in many cases. if u play a guy for the 10th time and u have won only once and mainly by luck or the other having a bad day... it is very hard to go into that much being convinced to win this time.

when shane is going abroad, many of the players dont know shane that well and havent played him much or even ever. So shane loses his intimidation factor. combining this with the factors mentioned above and his obvious inability to adapt as easy as other cosmopolitan players.. é voilà we get to where we are. shane getting usually to the last 16 of wpa events but not winning much.

I am convinced that if shane was to battle it out against ANY player in the world over an entire week, various disciplines, short and long sets, alternate, winner-break and whatever... shane wud prevail over almost all of them. maybe alex and dennis cud have a slight edge but i cannot think of anyone else.

I predict that in 30 years, shane will rival efren's status as the greatest to have ever picked up the cue!

Please elaborate :)
bicki
Click to expand...

They know who Shane is the fact is many of them can play Shane's speed on a neutral and some better on their home court ,,

1
 
CJ Wiley said:
That's for sure.....these tournaments are more about luck than skill.
Click to expand...

That is BS. If you look at the players that got through to the knockout stage and who have gone deep in the event they certainly represent the elite of the field. There were some weak players in the event (relative to the other players in the field) and they did not get very far. Everyone that got out of their brackets were for the most part the guys you expected to.

The only thing these events need is a slightly longer race and a "win by two" clause so people who win the lag cannot beat people by running out on each of their breaks. You should HAVE to "break serve" or win on the other guys break at least once in a set to win.

The whole momentum argument is BS. What winner breaks causes is one person to get benched and not be able to counterattack at all when their opponent gets hot. Imagine tennis where winners kept the serve, guy would serve out entire matches without an opponent being able to break serve and get their own chance to get the advantage of the serve. Pool with winner breaks in short races has the same problem, guys get control right off the hop and can shut their opponent down without the opponent being able to do much about it. The last couple US Open 9-balls were a freaking joke with rack your own and winner breaks, the one where SVB beat Alex with his gimpy rack was a complete joke, and Alex KNEW what SVB was doing to the rack and complained to Jay and was basically told to sit down and deal with it. That shit wrecks pool.
 
you get a "crap shoot" that has all the excitement of "lawn mowing"

With the rack they're using they have to cut the break and the corner ball is automatic. This greatly neurtalizes the advantages the best players have and favors the "unamerican" players. The tables are also very, very easy with slick cloth and larger pockets.....you put all these factors together and you get a "crap shoot" that has all the excitement of "lawn mowing" championships. :boring:

Pool without strategy is brutally boring, and it doesn't have to be this way.....it can be totally different in a way that is exciting....and the appropriate changes must be made.
'The Game is the Teacher'


one stroke said:
Correct since he can't rack is own rack and pattern he's at disadvantage ,,
Ya pool has always been a sit on the edge of your seat drama kinda it use to remind me of sudden death hockey lord what have they do e :eek:


1
Click to expand...
 
"consistent luck is a skill"

I didn't say the "elite players" aren't lucky.....some of them are very fortunate. It's not their fault, as a matter of fact "consistent luck is a skill".....what I don't like is the luck factor is 5 times more than it should be.....and of course someone has to win anyway.


Celtic said:
That is BS. If you look at the players that got through to the knockout stage and who have gone deep in the event they certainly represent the elite of the field. There were some weak players in the event (relative to the other players in the field) and they did not get very far. Everyone that got out of their brackets were for the most part the guys you expected to.

The only thing these events need is a slightly longer race and a "win by two" clause so people who win the lag cannot beat people by running out on each of their breaks. You should HAVE to "break serve" or win on the other guys break at least once in a set to win.

The whole momentum argument is BS. What winner breaks causes is one person to get benched and not be able to counterattack at all when their opponent gets hot. Imagine tennis where winners kept the serve, guy would serve out entire matches without an opponent being able to break serve and get their own chance to get the advantage of the serve. Pool with winner breaks in short races has the same problem, guys get control right off the hop and can shut their opponent down without the opponent being able to do much about it. The last couple US Open 9-balls were a freaking joke with rack your own and winner breaks, the one where SVB beat Alex with his gimpy rack was a complete joke, and Alex KNEW what SVB was doing to the rack and complained to Jay and was basically told to sit down and deal with it. That shit wrecks pool.
Click to expand...
 
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