Why CTE is silly
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What is the edge on the OB that starts CTE?
What is the offset pre-pivot for all of the cut angles?
Very interested in any statements you would like to make on EITHER of those questions.
So far, some say it CAN'T work as described. Other insist it CAN, but seem unable to clearly explain why (OR how to do it).
This can't logically be true. If a system can "line you up" for a pocket, it can line you up for any target.
pj
chgo
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And some say it can "work" (be of benefit to the player) in ways other than described.
So the issues debated in this thread are:
1. Is CTE an "exact" system that could "mechanically" guide a robot to pocket balls?
The above questions are debated the most. Some other questions are alive but debated less:- How? What are the steps?
- If the system is truly "mechanical" why can't it be described?
- Does it work "mechanically" for all shots?
2. Does CTE "work" in non-mechanical ways? Can it significantly help the player's alignment, focus, attention to detail, perception, confidence, etc?3. How does CTE compare with simpler and more direct systems like Ghost Ball, Double Offset or Parallel Lines?
4. Which of CTE's assumed advantages are unique to it and which can be obtained in other ways? Which way is best?
5. Are there significant disadvantages to using CTE (or aiming systems in general)?
pj4. Which of CTE's assumed advantages are unique to it and which can be obtained in other ways? Which way is best?
5. Are there significant disadvantages to using CTE (or aiming systems in general)?
chgo
P.S. I'm not taking any sides (in this post), just making a list.
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How (keeping both balls in the exact same spots) do you send the OB in two different directions? (hit the corner pocket on the first shot...set it up again and hit a diamond and a half over on the end rail)
Ok I have read two responses to this question...
"Line Up Differently"
"There is NO parallell shift"
I give up on any other question regarding CTE....I just want to know the answer to this 1 question.
Again...I understand how to use the basic CTE method and shoot the ball toward the corner pocket...but how using the CTE method do I now shoot the ball (with both balls respotted in the same position to a point on the rail 1 and 1/2 diamonds over on the end rail?
Line up differently?.....How?
No parallell shift? .......What?
Ok I have read two responses to this question...
"Line Up Differently"
"There is NO parallell shift"
I give up on any other question regarding CTE....I just want to know the answer to this 1 question.
Again...I understand how to use the basic CTE method and shoot the ball toward the corner pocket...but how using the CTE method do I now shoot the ball (with both balls respotted in the same position to a point on the rail 1 and 1/2 diamonds over on the end rail?
Line up differently?.....How?
No parallell shift? .......What?
OK. We're "creating experiences" now. Sounds very "Kodak moment" or Disney-like
Lou Figueroa
where is the bait
to place upon
my breath
Very Cute!
What is the edge on the OB that starts CTE?
What is the offset pre-pivot for all of the cut angles?
The first 2 pictures show you all your aiming points and the last cue ball picture is where u will be after u pivot and are ready to shoot. This is CTE and this is how spiderweb is making these shots on his video without even bothering to look at the pocket but just reading what side of the 45 degree angle the shot is.
http://www.youtube.com/user/unvmygame#p/u/0/815E5WwCjwY
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I think this is an appropriate description of CTE. IMO, it would be even more appropriate if the "even if" were removed.
Regards,
Dave
I have received a warning from Mr. Wilson, the Mod, that my recent comments to you went too far, to can it, and knock the crap off.
So, in spite of the fact that something very funny springs into my brain to respond to your post, I will resist the urgings of my inner bee-a-tch and just say that I am sorry if I offended you with any of my comments. (Besides, Joey has only sprinkled his stand-up comic holey water over Fred's bon mots.)
None of my comments were meant as a personal slight. (I think someone somewhere recently posted here that I am rarely malicious in my posts.) You are a well respected instructor and I acknowledge that. Best wishes for the success of your forthcoming DVD.
Lou Figueroa
PJ,
Excellent diagram and description (as usual). When I get some time, I'll quote it somewhere on my aiming FAQ resource page.
Regards,
Dave
Excellent diagram and description (as usual). When I get some time, I'll quote it somewhere on my aiming FAQ resource page.
Regards,
Dave
Thank you John. I think this would be extremely helpful. It should help people actually see what is different with the alignment and/or pivot with each of the 3 shots (i.e., we'll be able to actually see all of the stuff you seem to do subconsciously).
My original post is provided below again for reference. I think a video like you describe could answer many of these questions; although, I'm not sure all of the CTE proponents will agree with and/or support your version of CTE.
The CB-OB distance and CTEL (OB to CB, or CB to OB) are the exact same for all three shots, both in the 2D illustration and in 3D perspective. The only thing different is the amount of cut required. The CTE information I've heard and seen so far doesn't provide guidance on how to deal with this, other than: It takes "visual intelligence" and "experience at the table" to develop a sense for how to adjust the "effective pivot length." That's fine, but if there is something more specific than this, I think it would be interesting and useful to describe and discuss it in a calm, logical, and objective way.
Spidey: The CTEL line remains the same; however, the distance your eyes are off this line varies for each shot.
This is the missing piece of information in most descriptions of CTE I have seen and heard so far. However, this information is of little use unless there is some guidance as to how much to shift the eyes based on the amount of cut needed, because the only thing changing in the example is the amount of cut needed on each shot. Now, the guidance could just be: practice with the system enough to develop a sense for how this changes with the amount of cut needed.
The other important thing to know is whether or not you should change your "effective pivot length" in addition to changing your eye alignment for different shots. It would also be nice to have guidance on how and how much to do this. Again the answer could be: practice with the system enough to develop a sense for how you should change the "effective pivot length" for different ball distances and cut amounts.
If there were procedures or more-specific guidance to deal with these issues, it might help the understanding of and appreciation for CTE. In particular, it would be useful to know how to learn to judge and be consistent with both eye alignment and pivot for a wide range of shots with different ball distances and amounts of cut.
Spidey: The CTEL line remains the same; however, the distance your eyes are off this line varies for each shot.
This is the missing piece of information in most descriptions of CTE I have seen and heard so far. However, this information is of little use unless there is some guidance as to how much to shift the eyes based on the amount of cut needed, because the only thing changing in the example is the amount of cut needed on each shot. Now, the guidance could just be: practice with the system enough to develop a sense for how this changes with the amount of cut needed.
The other important thing to know is whether or not you should change your "effective pivot length" in addition to changing your eye alignment for different shots. It would also be nice to have guidance on how and how much to do this. Again the answer could be: practice with the system enough to develop a sense for how you should change the "effective pivot length" for different ball distances and cut amounts.
If there were procedures or more-specific guidance to deal with these issues, it might help the understanding of and appreciation for CTE. In particular, it would be useful to know how to learn to judge and be consistent with both eye alignment and pivot for a wide range of shots with different ball distances and amounts of cut.
Regards,
Dave
The first 2 pictures show you all your aiming points and the last cue ball picture is where u will be after u pivot and are ready to shoot. This is CTE and this is how spiderweb is making these shots on his video without even bothering to look at the pocket but just reading what side of the 45 degree angle the shot is.
http://www.youtube.com/user/unvmygame#p/u/0/815E5WwCjwY
Any chance you can answer this question?...from post #1devel...
How (keeping both balls in the exact same spots) do you send the OB in two different directions? (hit the corner pocket on the first shot...set it up again and hit a diamond and a half over on the end rail)
I have read two responses to this question....
"Line Up Differently"
"There is NO parallell shift"
I give up on any other question regarding CTE....I just want to know the answer to this 1 question.
Again...I understand how to use the basic CTE method and shoot the ball toward the corner pocket...but how using the CTE method do I now shoot the ball (with both balls respotted in the same position to a point on the rail 1 and 1/2 diamonds over on the end rail?
Line up differently?.....How?
No parallell shift? .......What?
That creates a picture in my mind of you, in your car, on the back of a towing truck, going to Toledo. Is it really an accurate description of your trip to say you "drove your car to Toledo?"
I think it's safe to say that people learning (or buying) CTE are interested in something MORE than their own "subconscious adjustments" for making shots.
If a student were told:
step 1) "line this up such and such, center to edge"
step 2) "now move parallel and pivot around to here"
step 3) "...and then subconsciously adjust the entire thing so the ball will actually go into the pocket"
...well, after they stopped laughing (and demanding their money back) they would try to get away as fast as possible.
EDIT: IMO, steps 1-3 are what actually HAPPEN, only step 3 isn't talked about. If it WERE, then, as I said, people couldn't get away from it fast enough.
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What is the edge on the OB that starts CTE?
What is the offset pre-pivot for all of the cut angles?
Question 1 I will have to leave alone.
Stans dvd comes out soon and that would give away a bit too much. This
is a missing piece for a reason . The off set for me is about a half ball.
Sorry about the 1st question.
That's why I said EVEN IF. I am not saying that it's subconscious adjustment just not disallowing the possibility.
What I am saying is that Dr. Dave and others are using the term "subconscious adjustment" to fill in the gaps they don't know about.
But what IF step 3 were really true?
What if the whole secret were to do steps one and two and then three magically happens, i.e. players end up on the right aiming line and they make more shots and harder shots with more consistency.
What if the whole thing boils down to a method which forces the player to stand in the right position and sweep their eyes and body into the right aiming line?
What's wrong with that?
What if you don't NEED to have the steps given to you with millimeter precision - stand here, put your hand here, pivot here. What if all it takes is five minutes with someone who knows the method to show you and after that you just get it and all you need is some practice?
Using Mike Page's ten minute instructions I predict that a lot of people who try them would get pretty frustrated if they never learn about contact induced throw. But I am shooting into the Ghost Ball like I saw on the video......why isn't the ball going in every time???
At this time Scott Lee walks over and explains CIT and a light bulb goes off.
Now it's fair to say that SOME people would understand CIT intuitively or subconsciously without ever receiving instruction.
I don't know what will happen on the CTE front to explain it in "detail". It works and I don't know how it works. If it's self-hynosis as a result of getting initially lined up in "the ballpark" then great. I doubt it but if so then great.
I would say I got to Toledo. Don't care how. I do not think it's safe t say the people interested in CTE want or need to know the math behind it. People who are interested in CTE truly are interested in making more shots, tougher shots, consistently. If the method works they don't need to know that it's can be perfectly diagrammed on paper.
Does superspin exist? Mike Page proved that it does not. Does that stop people from teaching that it does and demonstrating what they think is superspin? Do people end up being able to play high level pool under the belief that they can apply superspin? Of course they do.
Do you think that all the top level bankers in the world understood the math and physics behind the incredible shots they could make?
No, they understood that if you hit a ball like this then it does that. They taught their methods to a select few and the rest of us just watch in amazement without being able to do them because we were never taught the techniques.
If Hal Houle figures out that you can line up a certain way and make most of the shots on the table without needing to use an imaginary ball that doesn't mean he has to know the math.
Many people discover things without understanding the underlying physics.
Actually I said I have to look at it again when I next go to the table.
The Wikipedia article states that any parallel plane is also called the saggital plane. Pat pointed out that this is what I use to find the right edge. I know that I am definitely NOT picking any contact point on the object ball.
I think that the best way to think of how I see the edge is that I use the space where the center to edge line that is shown by the transverse plane meets the saggital plane on the edge of the object ball going towards the pocket.
Maybe. I don't know really.
How (keeping both balls in the exact same spots) do you send the OB in two different directions? (hit the corner pocket on the first shot...set it up again and hit a diamond and a half over on the end rail)
Ok I have read two responses to this question...
"Line Up Differently"
"There is NO parallell shift"
I give up on any other question regarding CTE....I just want to know the answer to this 1 question.
Again...I understand how to use the basic CTE method and shoot the ball toward the corner pocket...but how using the CTE method do I now shoot the ball (with both balls respotted in the same position to a point on the rail 1 and 1/2 diamonds over on the end rail?
Line up differently?.....How?
No parallell shift? .......What?
Someday I will have a little studio set up and can video chat while on the pool table. Then I can show you how I do these tasks using CTE.
I can't explain it in text. Easy to demonstrate hard to describe.
I can do a backflip. I wouldn't want you to try a backflip based on my text description of how to do a backflip.
(actually I can't do a backflip anymore. But at one time I could anytime anywhere)
I think that any book you will ever read on describing HOW to do a backflip will have a disclaimer that you should not try one by yourself and that you should have guidance from a proper coach.
I'd say CTE is pretty much the same, as is Ghost Ball.
There is a lot you can work out on your own from posted descriptions but it's better to have personal instruction.
I'm lost as to why you won't answer this question? Doesn't Hal give his phone calls for free? Do you really think you are taking money from Stan if you answer this question? NO, because whatever your answer is, people probably won't understand it anyway.
I'm really confused by this attitude of not answering a question because its going to possibly be on someone's dvd. This CTE system has been strung around for 15 yrs, and now, you are keeping quiet????
But, in fact, it DOES take millimeter precision to pocket balls. The very first post of this thread demonstrates that.
But in this world it's very often important to know HOW things happen. Ignorance is sometimes WORKABLE, but it's never PREFERABLE. There are COUNTLESS examples (especially in medicine, for example) where people thought something "worked" when IN FACT, it didn't.
All the top PLAYERS have understood that the ball does what they want when they HIT IT in the right place--and so they went about learning how to hit it there. I think that's what YOU don't understand--that most strong players (especially in the past) simply approached the game with a "natural" learning method--keep trying until you accomplish what you need to, and then hone that skill by further practice. The "system" they used was: LOTS OF PRACTICE!
Hal, and "many people" don't HAVE to understand the underlying geometry and physics. I'm more than pleased to do that work FOR THEM. But it's impossible, because the underlying geometry and physics DON'T WORK!
I gave this example before: go to youtube and look up "free energy" and similar terms. You will find COUNTLESS videos of contraptions made with magnets turning wheels. The people making those devices DO NOT understand the underlying physics, and as a result they have DELUDED themselves about what they believe are the workings of their contraptions.
It's strange that you've grown to full adulthood and haven't become well-acquainted with the concept that VERY OFTEN people get WRONG IDEAS that they BELIEVE are valid (and useful) but which in fact ARE NOT. You somehow don't seem to know that's VERY COMMONPLACE. The history of science and technology is littered with examples. Everyday life is often overwhelmed with it. Businesses fail every day because of it.
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