Why CTE is silly

[Patrick Johnson]

GetMeThere:
there are probably only 70-80 or so different "shots" in pool

This is a common way to think of cut angles in pool - as a collection of "shots" that the mind memorizes and recalls as individual "shot pictures" to reconstruct the CB/OB alignment. But I can imagine the actual process being a little more complicated than that - we might learn to recognize a smaller number of individual "index" cut angles along with a learned ability to adjust smoothly, sort of like starting with a still photo and then "winding the movie" forward/backward as the cut angle changes smoothly until it "points" at the pocket. I imagine that this method is most accurate over a short range of adjustments, and the more "index" cuts memorized the better, but I can also imagine that even a few could be helpful.

I would label as an "aiming system" only a method that could geometrically GENERATE the precision necessary for those shots.

If you could identify some major "index angles" with tangible CB/OB alignment "landmarks" like ball fractions, center-to-edge, etc., then even Hal's old 3-angle system (or even, gasp, CTE) could be precise enough to qualify in your terms.

I use the "shot picture library" analogy too when I think of how we aim, but I don't think we know enough about how the brain works on this task to say with certainty that CTE is that different from how feel players aim. It's a difficult thing to imagine or express clearly, so it's understandable that miscommunication plagues the topic.

I haven't changed my mind about CTE being "exact". It clearly isn't, but maybe that doesn't matter so much. Maybe it's not even that much different from any other way of aiming. I haven't made up my mind about any of this - just thinking out loud.

pj <- clickity clack
chgo

 

[Mikjary]

Fair enough!

Yes, it's visual and a little bit demanding but not to the point that one can't get the VISUALS down within a few days up to a few weeks.

Many very good players spend a lifetime playing the game and never see the balls correctly.

In just a short time one can learn the proper perceptions for ball pocketing.
So, if it is a little demanding with some work involved.....then I would think the trade-off to see in an exact way beats the heck out of the 10,000 hour or million ball approach.

Stan Shuffett

I guess "demanding" was a poor choice of words. I meant the phrase to more emphasize the constructive value of improving one's concentration and focus rather than being a chore or task. More Cte miscommunication!

Best,
Mike

Previous post has been edited

 

[RonV]

You guys are like a smart bomb,you kill things in a smart way...If i were a doctor or a lawyer etc. I would be scared to death to try to play this sport..Your making people think that they need raw talent to learn this game..Why don't you all just stop trying to prove to one another who is smarter, because that's all your doing on here..

Doesn't anyone know that all systems work and none of us invented them.

I am very worried about the people who read this stuff and do not play very well may think that they never will..You are scaring them to death and all you coaches are loosing business...

Regards, an x pool player

 

[Mikjary]

This is a common way to think of cut angles in pool - as a collection of "shots" that the mind memorizes and recalls as individual "shot pictures" to reconstruct the CB/OB alignment. But I can imagine the actual process being a little more complicated than that - we might learn to recognize a smaller number of individual "index" cut angles along with a learned ability to adjust smoothly, sort of like starting with a still photo and then "winding the movie" forward/backward as the cut angle changes smoothly until it "points" at the pocket. I imagine that this method is most accurate over a short range of adjustments, and the more "index" cuts memorized the better, but I can also imagine that even a few could be helpful.


If you could identify some major "index angles" with tangible CB/OB alignment "landmarks" like ball fractions, center-to-edge, etc., then even Hal's old 3-angle system (or even, gasp, CTE) could be precise enough to qualify in your terms.

I use the "shot picture library" analogy too when I think of how we aim, but I don't think we know enough about how the brain works on this task to say with certainty that CTE is that different from how feel players aim. It's a difficult thing to imagine or express clearly, so it's understandable that miscommunication plagues the topic.

I haven't changed my mind about CTE being "exact". It clearly isn't, but maybe that doesn't matter so much. Maybe it's not even that much different from any other way of aiming. I haven't made up my mind about any of this - just thinking out loud.

pj <- clickity clack
chgo

PJ,

This seminal line of thinking overlaps what GetMeThere stated about his "recipe" idea and I agree. In addition, this natural "indexing" or segmentation (c'mon guys, I want to come up with a word, too) is central to all pivot systems. As we shall soon see, Pro One takes this info and adds a new and interesting way of looking at the CB/OB relationship with this indexing in mind.

Best,
Mike

PS Please excuse my vagueness, but it just wouldn't be a Cte thread without it. :sorry:

 

[Mikjary]

You guys are like a smart bomb,you kill things in a smart way...If i were a doctor or a lawyer etc. I would be scared to death to try to play this sport..Your making people think that they need raw talent to learn this game..Why don't you all just stop trying to prove to one another who is smarter, because that's all your doing on here..

Doesn't anyone know that all systems work and none of us invented them.

I am very worried about the people who read this stuff and do not play very well may think that they never will..You are scaring them to death and all you coaches are loosing business...

Regards, an x pool player

Hey Ron! Where's that dvd you were working on? Or even that webinar we talked about?

Best,
Mike

 

[GetMeThere]

...but I don't think we know enough about how the brain works on this task to say with certainty that CTE is that different from how feel players aim...

My point is that I DON'T think there's a fundamental difference.

I think CTE players acquire "feel" and then to it they add a...recipe, dance, incantation, series of mental constructs, that is associated with the "feel." When the shot comes up they use a combination of direct feel and their "mental CTE method" to set up the shot. The "mental construct" helps them connect themselves to the "feel" for the shot; but it's feel--and only feel--that makes the shot, since the CTE method is incapable of actually independently producing a "shot solution."

My main reason for not being very supportive of it is that I don't like the idea of DELUDING oneself about what one is doing--I can't avoid thinking that doing tasks DIRECTLY (like "pivots" or delineating ball fractions with estimations in between) would be more efficient than making believe you're using a method that "tells you where to aim."

Since CTE ignores pocket position, no rational person can USE it and feel they're "aiming" for the pocket--yet they MUST "aim" for the pocket in order to actually pocket the ball. How can that be efficient?

Here's a JB video where he's MAKING the point that he doesn't care where the pockets are--yet he makes the shot each time, PROVING that at least SOME part of his brain surely cares where the pockets are!

 

[AtLarge]

... As we shall soon see, Pro One takes this info and adds a new and interesting way of looking at the CB/OB relationship with this indexing in mind. ...

Mike -- Sounds like you already have seen the video. Were you a beta tester, so to speak?

 

[Mikjary]

Mike -- Sounds like you already have seen the video. Were you a beta tester, so to speak?

No, sir. I've had the pleasure of seeing Pro One firsthand with Stan and Landon.

Best,
Mike

 

[stan shuffett]

I guess "demanding" was a poor choice of words. I meant the phrase to more emphasize the constructive value of improving one's concentration and focus rather than being a chore or task. More Cte miscommunication!

Best,
Mike

Previous post has been edited

Mike, I knew what you meant and took it as a positive comment.

Anything worthwhile involves some work. I just wanted put a little more perspective to it.

Thanks and I do enjoy your posts!

Stan

 

[cookie man]

PJ,

This seminal line of thinking overlaps what GetMeThere stated about his "recipe" idea and I agree. In addition, this natural "indexing" or segmentation (c'mon guys, I want to come up with a word, too) is central to all pivot systems. As we shall soon see, Pro One takes this info and adds a new and interesting way of looking at the CB/OB relationship with this indexing in mind.

Best,
Mike

PS Please excuse my vagueness, but it just wouldn't be a Cte thread without it. :sorry:

Good post, I know where your going with this.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGM3-21zxVM&feature=related

This was posted in the other thread. Check out 0:43. Bustamante starts with his cue nearly off the ball on the left edge and pivots towards the center with each stroke -- and then continues to pivot to the right quarter for his english position. He's playing a safety here, but it's a great view on how he moves his cue.

So, while guys like GMT think pivoting-aiming is a joke and that it's contra-intuitive to playing good pool (stepping into the shot with a straight stick), guys like Bustamante destroy the world with it.

 

[Mikjary]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGM3-21zxVM&feature=related

This was posted in the other thread. Check out 0:43. Bustamante starts with his cue nearly off the ball on the left edge and pivots towards the center with each stroke -- and then continues to pivot to the right quarter for his english position. He's playing a safety here, but it's a great view on how he moves his cue.

So, while guys like GMT think pivoting-aiming is a joke and that it's contra-intuitive to playing good pool (stepping into the shot with a straight stick), guys like Bustamante destroy the world with it.

I saw the same thing. At first it looks like crooked stroke, but then you realize what he's really doing as he pivots to the CB center. His english moves him completely to the opposite side of the ball.

Best,
Mike

 

[ThePoliteSniper]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGM3-21zxVM&feature=related

This was posted in the other thread. Check out 0:43. Bustamante starts with his cue nearly off the ball on the left edge and pivots towards the center with each stroke -- and then continues to pivot to the right quarter for his english position. He's playing a safety here, but it's a great view on how he moves his cue.

So, while guys like GMT think pivoting-aiming is a joke and that it's contra-intuitive to playing good pool (stepping into the shot with a straight stick), guys like Bustamante destroy the world with it.

Pocketting-wise, snooker pros destroy the world even more without any pivoting.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Pocketting-wise, snooker pros destroy the world even more without any pivoting.

Let's see how Ronnie O' can compete with Busty with 9/10-ball in a race to 100 since he pockets so great. No one said snooker players can't pocket--- but they pocket well in a game no one else plays.

 

[Maniac]

So, while guys like GMT think pivoting-aiming is a joke and that it's contra-intuitive to playing good pool (stepping into the shot with a straight stick), guys like Bustamante destroy the world with it.

Still remaining completely neutral on the subject, I don't see the point of namedropping one good players name when there are literally hundreds of great poolplayers who do not pivot their cues.

I understand and agree that CTE is used by many (and SOME great players) with proficiency. OTOH, other aiming methods are used (and used with equal proficiency) by many a great player too. It's a total wash as far as a comparison. There's not an ounce of difference in any of them. Stan's DVD is not gonna "change the pool world". It's gonna help some and not others. I've paid money for instruction, both in person and on video, books etc. Some of it has helped, while some of it was useless to me. It's going to be the same with CTE instruction. It will not be some miracle for what "ails" all poolplayers.

But......by all means........argue on!!!!!!! (It's very entertaining :wink

Maniac

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...I think CTE players acquire "feel" and then to it they add [CTE]

This makes CTE sound like an unnecessary extra that's just tacked onto the end of a pre-existing aiming method. I think it's more than that - I think it enhances the feel process for its users.

...it's feel--and only feel--that makes the shot, since the CTE method is incapable of actually independently producing a "shot solution."

I think CTE is added because "feel" alone can't produce a shot solution for some players - at least not one they feel confident of.

...I don't like the idea of DELUDING oneself about what one is doing--I can't avoid thinking that doing tasks DIRECTLY (like "pivots" or delineating ball fractions with estimations in between) would be more efficient than making believe you're using a method that "tells you where to aim."

While I agree that systems like CTE are guilty of false advertising, I can imagine that some players actually benefit from believing it's "exact" - adding the confidence factor that can be essential to aiming successfully by feel. And I suspect (from the rabid resistance to all investigation) that this describes most or all players who continue to use it.

I believe it's best for our general knowledge to continue to probe the reality of CTE, but I also think that reality includes it's "psychological" benefits.

pj
chgo

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Still remaining completely neutral on the subject, I don't see the point of namedropping one good players name when there are literally hundreds of great poolplayers who do not pivot their cues.

I understand and agree that CTE is used by many (and SOME great players) with proficiency. OTOH, other aiming methods are used (and used with equal proficiency) by many a great player too. It's a total wash as far as a comparison. There's not an ounce of difference in any of them. Stan's DVD is not gonna "change the pool world". It's gonna help some and not others. I've paid money for instruction, both in person and on video, books etc. Some of it has helped, while some of it was useless to me. It's going to be the same with CTE instruction. It will not be some miracle for what "ails" all poolplayers.

But......by all means........argue on!!!!!!! (It's very entertaining :wink

Maniac

Your point is well received and well said. I think my point wasn't to say that CTE is the only way to play ---- it was to make a point that GMT's arguments about CTE being a "joke, silly and retarded" way to play and that only idiots implement it within their game is uneducated.

 

[dr_dave]

While I agree that systems like CTE are guilty of false advertising, I can imagine that some players actually benefit from believing it's "exact" - adding the confidence factor that can be essential to aiming successfully by feel. And I suspect (from the rabid resistance to all investigation) that this describes most or all players who continue to use it.

I believe it's best for our general knowledge to continue to probe the reality of CTE, but I also think that reality includes it's "psychological" benefits.

Well stated. I agree. Although, it is probably a little unfair and inappropriate to describe all of the benefits as "psychological."

Regards,
Dave

 

[mikepage]

Well stated. I agree. Although, it is probably a little unfair and inappropriate to describe all of the benefits as "psychological."

Regards,
Dave

Yes.. But --just for the record-- he didn't.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Well stated. I agree. Although, it is probably a little unfair and inappropriate to describe all of the benefits as "psychological."

Regards,
Dave

Mike:
Yes.. But --just for the record-- he didn't.

Right. I've acknowledged the more tangible benefits of CTE in other posts. And, by the way, I think those could be beneficial to any player, although aiming systems aren't the only (or even best) way to get them.

pj
chgo