Why Do Low-Squirt Cues Jump Like White Guys?

[Patrick Johnson]

I believe it's because the LD shafts do not have enough mass to drive the cueball into the slate.

I'm curious about this explanation too. But low squirt shafts don't reduce the entire stick's mass much, certainly not as much as jumping ability is reduced - so I wonder how the small mass difference gets "magnified". Could it be that the mass in only part of the cue's length is "involved" in jumping the CB, making end mass reduction more significant?

pj
chgo

 

[JoeyInCali]

I'm curious about this explanation too. But low squirt shafts don't reduce the entire stick's mass much, certainly not as much as jumping ability is reduced - so I wonder how the small mass difference gets "magnified". Could it be that the mass in only part of the cue's length is "involved" in jumping the CB, making end mass reduction more significant?

pj
chgo

The end mass reduction on Preds are quite a bit .
Think of a .500" by 4" inches of wood that has been drilled 4" deep with a .250 hole ( it has a taper even ).
Never mind their thin wall light ferrules .
Jump cues have stiff taper, hard ferrule/tip combo .
When that tip hits the ball and the ball is trapped down the lathe's bed, low-def/high squirt shaft will do the job better .
Send me your jump cue. I'll drill it 4" deep and replace the ferrule with nylon.
You'll surely notice the difference.

 

[TATE]

I believe it's because the LD shafts do not have enough mass to drive the cueball into the slate.

That's what I believe too. The "low effective end mass" thing makes good for low squirt, bad for banging down for high jumps. I can certainly sense it when I'm trying jump with my LD shaft. It feels like not enough is happening down there to get the cue ball airborne.

 

[The Renfro]

Option A.... Tip gets out of the way....
Option B.... Cueball gets out of the way......

For Masse you have to have the cueball get out of the way... Sorry to anyone that says LD shafts masse well but they cannot if they are one of the low low deflection at least... The whole idea for a masse if to squirt the cueball away from the tip before it changes course... Doesn't work well on most shafts lower in deflection than an old school Muecci....

But back to jumping..... Technique has tons to do with how a jump cue performs simply because you have to understand what you have in your hand and what it CAN do.....

An LD shafted jump cue means you are going to drop the cue on the cueball and let the shaft get out of the way... My trick jump Lazerus weights 7 ounces and it's LD... I can dart jump from places most players only imagine... Don't ask me to long table jump with it because it carries no speed from cueball deflection down range....

My OB Lift weighs more and is not quite as low deflection... It deflects the cueball slightly and the cue deflects slightly so I can jump more shots with it than the Lazarus but it won't ever do the super close jumps but full table is now doable.. Overall it is usually my choice of weapons.

I also have one of the original sledge hammers... It's all about cueball deflection to get up and as long as I have a takeoff area of a foot or more it's golden.. You force the cueball....

All 3 jump well but all 3 are slightly different in how you use them and how much cueball you address and go thru to make them work....

 

[RBC]

The end mass reduction on Preds are quite a bit .
Think of a .500" by 4" inches of wood that has been drilled 4" deep with a .250 hole ( it has a taper even ).
Never mind their thin wall light ferrules .
Jump cues have stiff taper, hard ferrule/tip combo .
When that tip hits the ball and the ball is trapped down the lathe's bed, low-def/high squirt shaft will do the job better .
Send me your jump cue. I'll drill it 4" deep and replace the ferrule with nylon.
You'll surely notice the difference.

Joey

That's what's wrong, you're jumping balls off you lathe bed!


Royce

 

[RBC]

Option A.... Tip gets out of the way....
Option B.... Cueball gets out of the way......

For Masse you have to have the cueball get out of the way... Sorry to anyone that says LD shafts masse well but they cannot if they are one of the low low deflection at least... The whole idea for a masse if to squirt the cueball away from the tip before it changes course... Doesn't work well on most shafts lower in deflection than an old school Muecci....

But back to jumping..... Technique has tons to do with how a jump cue performs simply because you have to understand what you have in your hand and what it CAN do.....

An LD shafted jump cue means you are going to drop the cue on the cueball and let the shaft get out of the way... My trick jump Lazerus weights 7 ounces and it's LD... I can dart jump from places most players only imagine... Don't ask me to long table jump with it because it carries no speed from cueball deflection down range....

My OB Lift weighs more and is not quite as low deflection... It deflects the cueball slightly and the cue deflects slightly so I can jump more shots with it than the Lazarus but it won't ever do the super close jumps but full table is now doable.. Overall it is usually my choice of weapons.

I also have one of the original sledge hammers... It's all about cueball deflection to get up and as long as I have a takeoff area of a foot or more it's golden.. You force the cueball....

All 3 jump well but all 3 are slightly different in how you use them and how much cueball you address and go thru to make them work....

Chris

I like your analogies on the jump cues.

With ours, we worked very hard to come up with the best all around characteristics. The need to jump a ball from less than a ball's width should be very small, but the jump shots from 2 balls and up are much more often. Couple that with the increased ability to shoot accurately on those more common shots and it's a win win. Me personally, if I'm less than a ball, I'm shooting in a different direction.

Now, as to your comments on the Masse shot. I have to take a different path than what you've described. I regularly shoot masse shots (an indication on my position abilities!) with ease. I don't believe that a Masse shot has to squirt out to get around the interfering ball. A Masse shot is one where the cue ball spins more perpendicular to the table as opposed to parallel with it. To accomplish this, all you need to do is spin the ball, which LD shafts do quite well, and do so by shooting down into the table. The resulting spin will make the cue ball curve. In order to go around the interfering ball, all you have to do is aim to miss it. With a regular shaft, you don't have to aim "around" the interfering ball as much because it will squirt. Think of it like this, when a golfer has to hit a putt that breaks 5 feet, he doesn't aim at the hole and us a putter that deflects the golf ball by 5 feet, he just aims 5 feet over and focuses on his speed. This notion that LD shafts don't Masse came from the fact that when you first try to Masse with LD, you run straight into the interfering ball. It takes a few times to learn that you just have to aim where you want the cue ball to go first, which is around the interfering ball, and then let the spin bring it back to your target.

By the way, how does the Hammerhead work on the Lift? I still haven't tried it.


Royce

 

[JoeyInCali]

Joey

That's what's wrong, you're jumping balls off you lathe bed!


Royce

Ah!
I'll try the table next time.
Thanks.

 

[BarneyCalip]

Masse Cues

I know that Masse cues are short and fat,
Meaning they have more Mass.

Has anyone ever tried to jump a ball, with a Masse cue?

 

[desmocourtney]

I know that Masse cues are short and fat,
Meaning they have more Mass.

Has anyone ever tried to jump a ball, with a Masse cue?

I have not tried, but I bet they would have a problem with short jumps.

Jump cues are generally lightweight, but stiff. I have one Scott Gracio made from a graphite golf club shaft that will jump over a full ball from less than two inches away without much practice. I saw a video of Scott jumping a full ball about a 3mm away. The shaft is pretty stiff though and accuracy is not its strong suit.

Whats that Earl quote about jumping full table with a Mucci? "How strong is that?" Or was that Joe Rogan? I get them confused.
Might be NSFW,
https://youtu.be/4G0Gx8suAQs

 

[Patrick Johnson]

The whole idea for a masse if to squirt the cueball away from the tip before it changes course...

Lots of people say this, but I don't think it's true.

The idea is to aim the CB in the initial direction you want it to go (before it curves) - not to squirt it that way. It works the same with high-squirt or low-squirt cues.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

The end mass reduction on Preds are quite a bit

That could be for a shaft that's cored its whole length, but my custom LD shaft is only hollow for the first 6 inches or so - its overall weight is comparable to a solid shaft - and it still jumps like a legless frog. It must be end mass, not overall weight.

pj
chgo

 

[Drop The Rock]

That could be for a shaft that's cored its whole length, but my custom LD shaft is only hollow for the first 6 inches or so - its overall weight is comparable to a solid shaft - and it still jumps like a legless frog. It must be end mass, not overall weight.

pj
chgo

Thats kind of what I was trying to say in my last post with the Force=Mass x Acceleration (forget the hammer reference). Consider a 45" jump "cue" that was 13mm that had a 15" taper that transitioned to a 10" handle and another 15" at the other end (similar idea to the mezz double just cue thingy. The cue is laminated. Its cored on one end for say 5 inches and but un-cored on the other. With the same ferrule material, from what we know about LD (low end/ tip mass) shafts, the LD side should perform lackluster compared to the solely laminated side. It may still jump but I'm willing to bet its more difficult. RBC at OB would be able to test this better than anyone but in theory this would be a likely outcome.

 

[SureShot21]

It has to do with the fact that, when a low deflection cue hits the ball, the shaft actually moves out of the way of the ball to help reduce deflection. When jumping a ball, a low deflection cue will not hit through the white as hard as a conventional shaft.

 

[dr_dave]

Low-squirt shafts are notoriously hard to jump with, and I've never heard a convincing reason why.
...
Has Dr. Dave been frittering his time away having a life rather than testing this critical question? Or did I just miss the memo during my vacation?

PJ, if I had a really expensive high-speed camera (maybe 500,000 FPS or higher, with HD resolution), it would be much easier to answer this question. In lieu of that (since I don't have access to such a camera), the best I can do is offer my best guess:

I think an LD-shaft playing cue doesn't jump as well because the hit is less efficient and the tip contact time is longer.

To get good jump action, it helps to have a hard tip (e.g., phenolic), a stiff shaft, and a light cue (resulting in faster cue speed). The hard tip and stiff shaft generally result in a more efficient hit (i.e., more speed will be delivered to the CB for a given cue weight and speed). For more info, see cue efficiency. The hard tip, stiff shaft, and fast speed also help reduce cue tip contact time. For more info, see the cue tip contact time resource page. A shorter tip contact time is important to allow the CB to separate from the tip before the CB interacts too much with the table surface. If the tip is still in contact while the CB is interacting with the slate, the CB won't jump as well.

Compared to a typical good-action jump cue, a typical LD-shaft playing cue has a softer tip, a less-stiff shaft, more weight, and less speed during a jump stroke. All of those things can hurt when it comes to jumping the CB.

Also, if the cue tip does not get out of the way while the CB is bouncing off the slate, a poor jump can result. This can be caused by poor jump shot technique (e.g., hitting the CB too high, or using a grip that is too tight), but having a light jump cue also helps since it will lose more forward speed with the hit.

Good thread!

Regards,
Dave

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Compared to a typical good-action jump cue, a typical LD-shaft playing cue has ... less speed during a jump stroke.

I don't get this. Why does a low-deflection shaft have less speed?

...if the cue tip does not get out of the way while the CB is bouncing off the slate, a poor jump can result. This can be caused by ... using a grip that is too tight...

Hmm... hadn't thought of this. Thanks, Dave!

pj
chgo

 

[DAVE_M]

PJ, if I had a really expensive high-speed camera (maybe 500,000 FPS or higher, with HD resolution), it would be much easier to answer this question. In lieu of that (since I don't have access to such a camera), the best I can do is offer my best guess:

I think an LD-shaft playing cue doesn't jump as well because the hit is less efficient and the tip contact time is longer.

To get good jump action, it helps to have a hard tip (e.g., phenolic), a stiff shaft, and a light cue (resulting in faster cue speed). The hard tip and stiff shaft generally result in a more efficient hit (i.e., more speed will be delivered to the CB for a given cue weight and speed). For more info, see cue efficiency. The hard tip, stiff shaft, and fast speed also help reduce cue tip contact time. For more info, see the cue tip contact time resource page. A shorter tip contact time is important to allow the CB to separate from the tip before the CB interacts too much with the table surface. If the tip is still in contact while the CB is interacting with the slate, the CB won't jump as well.

Compared to a typical good-action jump cue, a typical LD-shaft playing cue has a softer tip, a less-stiff shaft, more weight, and less speed during a jump stroke. All of those things can hurt when it comes to jumping the CB.

Also, if the cue tip does not get out of the way while the CB is bouncing off the slate, a poor jump can result. This can be caused by poor jump shot technique (e.g., hitting the CB too high, or using a grip that is too tight), but having a light jump cue also helps since it will lose more forward speed with the hit.

Good thread!

Regards,
Dave

I was reading through the first page and was going to try to explain my opinion, but it seems as though we share the same opinion/guess at the question, and you did an excellent job explaining it.

If you want to know why LD shafts don't jump well, ask Jacoby why they have a large brass ferrule on their jump cues.

 

[dr_dave]

Compared to a typical good-action jump cue, a typical LD-shaft playing cue has ... less speed during a jump stroke.

I don't get this. Why does a low-deflection shaft have less speed?

... because a typical LD-shaft playing cue is heavier than a typical good-action jump cue; therefore, for the same CB speed, the jump cue will need more speed. Also, it is easier to accelerate a cue that is lighter.

Also, if the cue tip does not get out of the way while the CB is bouncing off the slate, a poor jump can result. This can be caused by poor jump shot technique (e.g., hitting the CB too high, or using a grip that is too tight), but having a light jump cue also helps since it will lose more forward speed with the hit.

Hmm... hadn't thought of this. Thanks, Dave!

You're welcome.

I aim to squerve,
Dave

 

[fastone371]

We need a slow motion video of a jump shot with each cue, that should tell us exactly what is going on I would think.

 

[DAVE_M]

We need a slow motion video of a jump shot with each cue, that should tell us exactly what is going on I would think.

Indeed, but you would need a group like the "Slo Mo Guys," on YouTube, to record something like that. I don't think anyone on AzB has a camera with that high of a frame rate.

 

[Okie]

Chris

I like your analogies on the jump cues.

With ours, we worked very hard to come up with the best all around characteristics. The need to jump a ball from less than a ball's width should be very small, but the jump shots from 2 balls and up are much more often. Couple that with the increased ability to shoot accurately on those more common shots and it's a win win. Me personally, if I'm less than a ball, I'm shooting in a different direction.

Now, as to your comments on the Masse shot. I have to take a different path than what you've described. I regularly shoot masse shots (an indication on my position abilities!) with ease. I don't believe that a Masse shot has to squirt out to get around the interfering ball. A Masse shot is one where the cue ball spins more perpendicular to the table as opposed to parallel with it. To accomplish this, all you need to do is spin the ball, which LD shafts do quite well, and do so by shooting down into the table. The resulting spin will make the cue ball curve. In order to go around the interfering ball, all you have to do is aim to miss it. With a regular shaft, you don't have to aim "around" the interfering ball as much because it will squirt. Think of it like this, when a golfer has to hit a putt that breaks 5 feet, he doesn't aim at the hole and us a putter that deflects the golf ball by 5 feet, he just aims 5 feet over and focuses on his speed. This notion that LD shafts don't Masse came from the fact that when you first try to Masse with LD, you run straight into the interfering ball. It takes a few times to learn that you just have to aim where you want the cue ball to go first, which is around the interfering ball, and then let the spin bring it back to your target.

By the way, how does the Hammerhead work on the Lift? I still haven't tried it.


Royce

Spot on for masse, IMO. The very first thing I had to adjust using my OB-1 was to aim away from the blocking ball. I never realized I was using deflection until that moment. I just point and fired and trusted it.

Good thread, Patrick! I hope Dr. Dave and/or Bob Jewett join in! But maybe they have and I haven't seen yet as I am only on page two! lol

EDIT: Of course Dr. Dave or Bob have chimed in with helpful information! They always do us proud!

Ken