I am in it for the big bucks...always have been!:grin:
Why do people in the pool hall come up to you and want to play you but want weight?
- Thread starter Lock N Load
- Start date
I never ask for weight and look for people that can beat me. To me this is the way you really progress; BUT, I must say I don't gamble for much just some small rolls. If I were to win and have weight in my mind was that really a win? I say no in my mind so I stick to being able to play someone even and if they are better than me so be it; means I have to work harder. I played someone 9 ball the other night, race to 15, barbox, winner breaks. He ran the first 8 on me. I practiced my racking real good. I got two shots in 15 games and they weren't good ones. Now I have to reflect on what I could have maybe done differently but one thing is evident; I need to practice my break so I can run racks like him.
only speaking for me. i don't gamble much because i am fairly broke. so when i do it's only with people i know. so if i know you and you know me and we both know i need something to make it competitive i don't see the problem asking for something we both know would be in line. i would never ask someone for something ridiculous. and i would never ask a random stranger to gamble.
but there in lies the rub for me. when i do bet i like to gamble. meaning the game can be won by either person. that's where the adrenaline rush for me comes from. if you're trying to get in a game that you know is a lock for you (no pun intended on your name), that's not gambling. that's hustling or stealing. and that holds no joy or interest for me. but again that's just how i feel and i know i'm in the moinority there.
but there in lies the rub for me. when i do bet i like to gamble. meaning the game can be won by either person. that's where the adrenaline rush for me comes from. if you're trying to get in a game that you know is a lock for you (no pun intended on your name), that's not gambling. that's hustling or stealing. and that holds no joy or interest for me. but again that's just how i feel and i know i'm in the moinority there.
I have to say, I love this thread. I wouldn't ever walk up to someone and ask for a spot. If a discussion turned into a potential match and I felt I needed a spot - I would mention it.
I think that is a HUGE difference. I have also given good spots nor did either party call the other chicken. Let's face it - the only way anyone can call another player coward and be taken seriously is if they are talking EVEN.
Now, on the topic of spotting, or handicapping - that is truly where the cash can be made. Thing about bookies, they make their money. Not alot of players have gambling partners that are very near even, so that is why spotting became popular.
The trick is to give someone that they think is a good spot, when in fact it isn't enough. Not only is it not enough, you can figure out different ways to give them a comparable spot.
There are many threads here that discuss spots, but figure out how to keep the advantage at around 60/40 and you will prosper. Don't complain about the spot, relish it. I guarantee it provides more opportunity to make money than no spot at all!
I think that is a HUGE difference. I have also given good spots nor did either party call the other chicken. Let's face it - the only way anyone can call another player coward and be taken seriously is if they are talking EVEN.
Now, on the topic of spotting, or handicapping - that is truly where the cash can be made. Thing about bookies, they make their money. Not alot of players have gambling partners that are very near even, so that is why spotting became popular.
The trick is to give someone that they think is a good spot, when in fact it isn't enough. Not only is it not enough, you can figure out different ways to give them a comparable spot.
There are many threads here that discuss spots, but figure out how to keep the advantage at around 60/40 and you will prosper. Don't complain about the spot, relish it. I guarantee it provides more opportunity to make money than no spot at all!
I agree, it isn't gambling for one party...but might be for the other...in other words just a bad bet for the other party but nonetheless gambling. But it certainly is not hustling nor stealing on the face of it. If one lies or portrays something false in some way, then that could be said to be huslting or sharking. Stealing? Sure, if you actually outright cheat.
So you turn down lots of action that you know you have a great chance of winning? Really? Regularly, eh? Pretty noble.
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I might get myself in trouble here but oh well....
One thing that's going on in this thread is there is this idea that just because some of you were naive enough to fork over your money to much better players when you were starting out, it doesn’t mean that up and coming players have to do the same thing.
This whole idea that "you have to pay your dues" is a bunch of crap. Racking for someone isn't paying your dues, and it doesn't help you improve your pool game. All it does is give you the chance to watch good pool and learn how to rack. I know it sort of sucks for those of you that forked over all your lunch money and you are now bitter that you can't get that back from the bangers, but I’m afraid the party is over.
If you really want to improve your pool game you don't have to get run over by a stable of champion players. Instead, figure out where you stand in the pecking order and play the guys that are near your speed until you are beating them handily. Then move up. Keep doing this until you reach the top. I suppose it may be somewhat worthwhile to play a champion with a healthy spot from time to time just to see how your game holds up under the pressure. But in the long run, I think you're better off playing players closer to your speed.
One thing that's going on in this thread is there is this idea that just because some of you were naive enough to fork over your money to much better players when you were starting out, it doesn’t mean that up and coming players have to do the same thing.
This whole idea that "you have to pay your dues" is a bunch of crap. Racking for someone isn't paying your dues, and it doesn't help you improve your pool game. All it does is give you the chance to watch good pool and learn how to rack. I know it sort of sucks for those of you that forked over all your lunch money and you are now bitter that you can't get that back from the bangers, but I’m afraid the party is over.
If you really want to improve your pool game you don't have to get run over by a stable of champion players. Instead, figure out where you stand in the pecking order and play the guys that are near your speed until you are beating them handily. Then move up. Keep doing this until you reach the top. I suppose it may be somewhat worthwhile to play a champion with a healthy spot from time to time just to see how your game holds up under the pressure. But in the long run, I think you're better off playing players closer to your speed.
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no doc, like i said i don't have much to lose so i don't i don't gamble often. stealing was a strong word to use but that's how i feel if i'm offered a game that i know i should win. not that i will win becasue anything can and does happen, but if i know a spot is out of line i won't take it.
and it's not out of nobility. i wish i could say i was that good of a guy
it's just that i don't do much that gets my adrenaline up (and if you saw me you see what i mean - as big as a house and slow as a turtle) so when i do play for money i like to have a little kick from the coin flip aspect of it.i do understand your point though for guys who are in the grease alot, trying to out run the nuts can give a seasoned gambler the same rush i get from and even match. or, as you said they may just be making a bad bet.
sorry for using "stealing" as i see that was a little to harsh of a word.
"This whole idea that "you have to pay your dues" is a bunch of crap. Racking for someone isn't paying your dues,"
No, paying your dues isn't crap at all. One poster very correctly stated that playing and getting beat by much better players was the cheapest lessons he ever had. That is SO true.
And not only do you learn how to play better...you also learn how to "shoot off"...miss intentionally to keep the score closer than it otherwise would be.
Lots of roadies PRACTICE shooting at the points so they'll miss...or making a shot but leaving themselves blocked at which point they play a crappy safety. I LOVE watching how they do that stuff.
When a guy rattles one out on me I smile and say..."Nice shot." (-:
And as for "racking for someone" we don't have to be TOTAL chumps and play winner breaks. Either play alternate or LOSER breaks. Top speed guys will play you anyway and at least you get a turn unless the guy breaks and runs...which they will rarely do for fear of scaring the chump off.
(-:
You sound like a fun and trusting opponent :thud:
Oh I see - you're talking about how to learn how to hustle a guy out of 20 bucks. Or even better, how to fly under the radar and maintain a SL-6 in the APA. :thumbup:
I really don't care about all that. I'm one of those guys that just really loves pool and I think the old method of becoming a great player is being replaced with a new method.
The old method is you plop yourself into the local pool hall and figure out how to make some sort of bridge, practice for a week or two, and then proceed to gamble for 30 years. At the end of this you turn out to be a pretty good pool player. This is not to say that players that came up like this didn't put in a lot of work but I think the new method is much more efficient.
The new method involves following strict fundamentals from the get go, putting in a lot of diligent practice, and competing mainly in tournaments. This is more of the European and I'm guessing the Asian approach. Gambling really doesn't even have to be a part of the equation at all.
Banks
Banned
Cheapest lesson I ever had was about $40. Of course, it was the only lesson I ever had and only half a lesson at that.
People have enough problems making the shots that they want to make, the ones that can rattle consistently, on purpose, are pretty rare in the grand scheme of pool.
I learned the most by knocking them around by myself. Then I'll go ask the guy that beat me a year or two ago if he wants to play again.
Strict fundamentals.. uhh.. I can hop like a bunny, does that count? I also rarely do tournaments.. no desire to get home on a non-league night, only to rush out to a bar and sit around for 5 or 6 hours. Practice routine? The most consistent thing is that I have a beer. Drills make me go :boring2:.
I just like to play.. and play.. and play. Then, when I think I'm done playing, I change it to something more fun and play some more.
Back to the weight..
If I know somebody's an A/Master, it's likely that I'll ask for a better spot than I need. It's part of haggling. If they bite right away, I've got a real good chance of taking it down. They can say no or offer up a different spot. There's no harm in asking and for some their ego can be a little much for their arse. Chances are, I'd probably play even unless they're well beyond me, but I'll play "woe is me" if they let me. :smile:
As for the other way around.. I like to test myself by seeing just how big of a spot I can give up to people I know. I don't play for big money, so it doesn't get out of hand. What I've learned, though, is that when somebody plays correctly, the spot can almost mean nothing. I like the APA handicaps, because you can manually adjust them for matching up.
Either way, I try not to go act a fool about not getting what I want.
I guess I don't understand the problem.
A person makes an offer. You're free to say Yes, No or Let's Do This Instead. Negotiation has to start somewhere.
The alternative is for the person to sit in the corner and send mental telepathy messages to your brain..."go ask him to gamble with these odds"
PS -- If it were me, I'd have to ask that any ball I'm able to hit is considered pocketed :grin:
A person makes an offer. You're free to say Yes, No or Let's Do This Instead. Negotiation has to start somewhere.
The alternative is for the person to sit in the corner and send mental telepathy messages to your brain..."go ask him to gamble with these odds"
PS -- If it were me, I'd have to ask that any ball I'm able to hit is considered pocketed :grin:
Basement - I get where you're coming from. You're at least half right.
The way I see it, there are two ingredients to playing for cash (or tournaments for that matter). You need the actual pool skills, and you need the ability to play under pressure.
I feel that donating to stronger players doesn't give you pool skills. Watching some guy run out on you won't improve your speed control or help you draw the ball better or improve your shotmaking.
You might learn a trick or two from the chair, but you can learn from the chair for free as a spectator. You don't need to actually step into the box to learn that you can play such-and-such shot railfirst for position, or whatever.
But playing those stronger players in gambling or tournament situations is the only way to learn how to handle your nerves. That cannot really be simulated in practice or playing for funsies.
The way I see it, there are two ingredients to playing for cash (or tournaments for that matter). You need the actual pool skills, and you need the ability to play under pressure.
I feel that donating to stronger players doesn't give you pool skills. Watching some guy run out on you won't improve your speed control or help you draw the ball better or improve your shotmaking.
You might learn a trick or two from the chair, but you can learn from the chair for free as a spectator. You don't need to actually step into the box to learn that you can play such-and-such shot railfirst for position, or whatever.
But playing those stronger players in gambling or tournament situations is the only way to learn how to handle your nerves. That cannot really be simulated in practice or playing for funsies.
"Oh I see - you're talking about how to learn how to hustle a guy out of 20 bucks"
No. I think you mis-read my post. I was suggesting how a low speed player can LEARN by playing against much better players....and that it's perfectly OK and actually smart to "pay your dues" by playing when you know you will lose and how to benefit from that.
And I don't think that "competing mainly in tournaments" is the "new method"...should be the new method or is even particularly good advice.
Most APA sort of tournaments typically...not always but most of the time have medium speed players playing against each other. Since ALL medium speed players exhibit a wide array of mechanical and strategic mistakes, the opponents don't learn much from each other and much of what they "learn" is wrong.
FAR better...from a learning perspective to play against A Team opponents who you CAN learn a lot from and just count what you lose as a lesson fee.
That is true IF you know what to watch for...what questions to ask...and basically HOW to learn from speedy players.
That is what my post attempted to and I think did address.
EagleMan
EDIT....Ooops. Most of this post actually had to do with another thread..."Spotting and betting question" but some of what I wrote here was responsive to this thread so I'll leave it up.
Sorry.
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Great points!
Way to go Big Shooter,
When I came up I had no bike to ride. I like what you just said!
Many Regards,
Lock N Load.