why does "pivot english" work

[bruin70]

by whatever name,,,"pivot english" is applying english by pivoting the cue at the bridge before stroking. sansoucci showed me this one day when he saw i was having problems aiming/pocketing with inside english. he pulls me over and says,"all you have to do is line up dead center on the CB to your line of aim, then just pivot the cue(swinging the grip and pivoting the cue at the bridge) to your desired english, and just shoot through the CB. he proceeded to demonstrate, and, of course, made all the shots with english

now,,,,,i asked, well,,,what about that all cues are different, and some shafts deflect more than others. doesn't the compensation vary? why would this pivot english technique apply to all cues/shafts. he said,,,it just does.

well, i can't explain it, and i see that it works(and as it turns out, there are many players who use it).

why does pivot english work?

 

[Buddha Jones]

The more 'guess' work you can take out of your game the better, don't add any to it.

 

[Rickw]

Bruin,

Isn't this just another term for "back hand english"? I think Bert Kinnister teaches that too. I really don't like it. I've worked my butt off trying to get a straight stroke and then this comes along! Oi vey!!

 

[Jimmy M.]

why does pivot english work?

That's a good question! I use it myself on many shots, and I have no idea why the hell it works. I'm sure Bob Jewett could give an explanation as I believe he has a background in physics (I apologize if that isn't the case).

Actually, let me clarify what I do. I don't pivot on the last stroke. I align center, then "mark" where I want to hit on the cue ball (my tip is aimed at where I'm going to hit on the ball). In fact, I don't really move my arm, I shift my body weight a little, depending on the severity of the English I'm using. It's a SUBTLE shift. I'm not leaning all over the place. This way my body and arm are still aligned the same, so I don't feel like my stance/stroke are completely different on every shot. So, I am still stroking the cue in a straight line, it just isn't necessarily parallel to the target line. I don't do this on every single shot that I use English on, but I do it quite a bit. Probably about 85% of the time, if I had to put a percentage to it.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Parallel english doesn't work for the most parts imo.
It just causes the cb to deflect and doesn't put much spin on the cb anyway.
With backhand english/pivot, the cb spins much more and the throw offsets the deflection on medium speed and medium distance ( 4 to 5 diamonds).

 

[TATE]

OK - I will say this and probably get flamed. I have some thoughts on this but I haven't figured out the whoe thing yet.

Does it really work? Kind of -but not on all shots. If it's better it's because of a fluke - mainly because we have been taught the hard way to put english on the cue ball in the first place. The way we have been taught to use english is to go straight through the cueball with an off center hit and adjust our aim for the throw and squirt. We are dealing a glancing blow to the cueball and guessing the outcome.

Backhand teaches you to apply english while still going through the relative center of the cueball. Aim is adjusted for you, and the squirt is the same amount every time. The main thing is you are still going through the relative center of the cue ball with spin but without the glancing blow. You are basically squirting the cueball to where you are aiming instead of adjusting your aim for squirt.

You can see the action on the cueball is different. It takes a more direct "v" route after contact with the object ball.

Anyway, I don't use it but I used the principals it taught to improve the way I line up for inside english shots.

Chris

 

[JoeyInCali]

Backhand teaches you to apply english while still going through the relative center of the cueball. Aim is adjusted for you, and the squirt is the same amount every time. The main thing is you are still going through the relative center of the cue ball with spin but without the glancing blow. You are basically squirting the cueball to where you are aiming instead of adjusting your aim for squirt.

The squirt is not the same all the time. It's most effective on medium shots ( 3-rail lag speed) and 4-5 diamonds distance.
Parallel english not only doesn't spin the cueball that much , you'll have to aim the cueball a ways opposite of the english.

 

[Williebetmore]

Parallel english doesn't work for the most parts imo.
It just causes the cb to deflect and doesn't put much spin on the cb anyway.
.

Joey,
I guess I would disagree that parallel English doesn't work. All four of the pro's that I have worked with use parallel English exclusively (though I still persist in using "pivot English" for those 89 degree cut shots). We can all spin the ball like a mother if we want - you just have to strike the cue ball farther from the center (Close to the Edge for you Yes fans). When I first started, it was UNCOMFORTABLY close to the edge, it takes a bit of getting used to. The advantage is you don't have to screw up that pre-shot routine, setup, and perfectly reproducible stroke you have slaved away to develop - you can use it on English shots also. JMO also.

 

[wayne]

OK - I will say this and probably get flamed. I have some thoughts on this but I haven't figured out the whoe thing yet.

Does it really work? Kind of -but not on all shots. If it's better it's because of a fluke - mainly because we have been taught the hard way to put english on the cue ball in the first place. The way we have been taught to use english is to go straight through the cueball with an off center hit and adjust our aim for the throw and squirt. We are dealing a glancing blow to the cueball and guessing the outcome.

Backhand teaches you to apply english while still going through the relative center of the cueball. Aim is adjusted for you, and the squirt is the same amount every time. The main thing is you are still going through the relative center of the cue ball with spin but without the glancing blow. You are basically squirting the cueball to where you are aiming instead of adjusting your aim for squirt.

You can see the action on the cueball is different. It takes a more direct "v" route after contact with the object ball.

Anyway, I don't use it but I used the principals it taught to improve the way I line up for inside english shots.

Chris

There are situations where backhand english is better and others where conventional english is more workable.

For example on a straight in shot where you want to play position by following off two rails backhand english gets the job done whereas regular English will lead to a scratch or close to it.

If you want to draw back and spin the cueball down the table conventional english works but backhand english sucks in this situation.

It is best to know and be able to use both types because there are many situations where one is much better than the other and there are things you can do with one that aren't even possible with the other.

Wayne

 

[bruin70]

Bruin,

Isn't this just another term for "back hand english"? I think Bert Kinnister teaches that too. I really don't like it. I've worked my butt off trying to get a straight stroke and then this comes along! Oi vey!!

rick,,,,it's not a crooked stroke. you have to hit through the cb with a straight stroke. the "pivot" is merely a realignment, so to speak, before you deliver your stroke. i think you're thinking that you have to flick or glance off the cb with a crooked turn of the grip......you are not.

1...line up a shot, aligning dead center ball on the cb.
2...for whatever amount of inside or outside english, just pivot the Q by moving your grip left or right, pivoting at the bridge as your fulcrum,,,,just before your final stroke. set it,,,
3...and on this new alignment, stroke cleanly through the cb.

the stroke is straight, but the cue is now realigned differently.

most people use parallel english as mentioned above. in parallel english you are already aiming on the side of the CB you intend to deliver the english with,,,,but this requires that you compensate for your aim on the OB. the advantage of pivot english, as stated by ginky, is that you ALWAYS start out aiming the same, ie, center cb to your line of aim,,,this makes your aim constant. what changes is how much you pivot the Q to apply english before delivering the final stroke, which is straight but now on a different alignment.

 

[Jon]

I use both...

Sometimes...

When i use side spin...


Thanks,

Jon

 

[walt]

I'm sure Bob Jewett could give an explanation as I believe he has a background in physics (I apologize if that isn't the case).

Bob Jewett wrote an article on it a while back. He points out that varying the bridge length (distance between your bridge hand and the cue ball) varies the final angle of the cue when pivoting it to point at a consistent spot on the cue ball. Since different cues have different deflection characteristics, they require different bridge lengths to make the effect of the pivot exactly counteract the effect of the deflection. In other words, if pivot English doesn't work for you and you would like to master it, try changing your bridge length.

If pivot English seems to work for you by magic, you have simply unconsciously adjusted your bridging distance to match the deflection characteristics of your cue and stroke.

 

[bill190]

The paper at the first link below explains it. Bypass the math and read the text. The most important parts are near the back of the paper. There is a test to find the pivot point on your cue on pages 10 and 11.

Basically cue ball deflection will occur different directions before and after the "pivot point" on a cue stick. When aiming with English using the pivot point exactly, the differing deflections cancel themselves out or as I say, you get no deflection. The location on a cue stick of a pivot point is determined by the mass of the tip and some say by the tip curvature. Since cues are different, the length from the tip to the pivot point will also be different. See the second link for pivot points on different cues. Note that they did not test with different tip curvatures.

Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Cue Ball
Squirt, But Were Afraid to Ask...
http://www.sfbilliards.com/Shepard_squirt.pdf

Platinum Billiards Deflection Ratings...
http://www.platinumbilliards.com/rating_deflect.php

 

[Rickw]

JMO, but I think that if you stroke the ball properly, you don't need to hit that far from the center of the cb to get a lot of english. I've watched some of the pros use radical english, always hiitting the cb close to the outer edges of the cb, but not all of the pros do. The pros that seem to have the best stroke seem to hit the cb closer to center.

Joey,
I guess I would disagree that parallel English doesn't work. All four of the pro's that I have worked with use parallel English exclusively (though I still persist in using "pivot English" for those 89 degree cut shots). We can all spin the ball like a mother if we want - you just have to strike the cue ball farther from the center (Close to the Edge for you Yes fans). When I first started, it was UNCOMFORTABLY close to the edge, it takes a bit of getting used to. The advantage is you don't have to screw up that pre-shot routine, setup, and perfectly reproducible stroke you have slaved away to develop - you can use it on English shots also. JMO also.

 

[Rickw]

Bruin,

I don't like the realigning. I feel comfortable shooting the ball with english without adjusting my cue. It feels to me like I'm changing my stroke when I try it. I know what you're saying and you make logical sense, it's just the feeling I get when I try it and I don't like it.

rick,,,,it's not a crooked stroke. you have to hit through the cb with a straight stroke. the "pivot" is merely a realignment, so to speak, before you deliver your stroke. i think you're thinking that you have to flick or glance off the cb with a crooked turn of the grip......you are not.

1...line up a shot, aligning dead center ball on the cb.
2...for whatever amount of inside or outside english, just pivot the Q by moving your grip left or right, pivoting at the bridge as your fulcrum,,,,just before your final stroke. set it,,,
3...and on this new alignment, stroke cleanly through the cb.

the stroke is straight, but the cue is now realigned differently.

most people use parallel english as mentioned above. in parallel english you are already aiming on the side of the CB you intend to deliver the english with,,,,but this requires that you compensate for your aim on the OB. the advantage of pivot english, as stated by ginky, is that you ALWAYS start out aiming the same, ie, center cb to your line of aim,,,this makes your aim constant. what changes is how much you pivot the Q to apply english before delivering the final stroke, which is straight but now on a different alignment.

 

[Drake]

The Only Teaching Pro that attempts to touch on this is Buddy Hall. He talks specifically about applying "Backhand English" where you slightly move your backhand in one direction or the other. I played completly with parallel english for 8 years and became a great player....but in the last 3 years I have played around with backhand english and have found that it allows me to shoot closer to center which in turn makes me more consistent. However, you have to be able to let go of your mechanics some and be a "Feel" player. Just my 2 cents......Drake

 

[Bob Jewett]

The Only Teaching Pro that attempts to touch on this is Buddy Hall. He talks specifically about applying "Backhand English" where you slightly move your backhand in one direction or the other. I played completly with parallel english for 8 years and became a great player....but in the last 3 years I have played around with backhand english and have found that it allows me to shoot closer to center which in turn makes me more consistent. However, you have to be able to let go of your mechanics some and be a "Feel" player. Just my 2 cents......Drake

Actually, "aim-and-pivot" is used by many BCA instructors as a way to introduce beginners to the aiming compensation required for side spin. As mentioned before, for a particular stick, and for a particular distance to the object ball, and for a particular elevation, and for a whole bunch of other conditions, "aim-and-pivot" can be made to work. With all due respect to the player who was unaware of the problems, the method doesn't "just work for all shots."

Some definitions (these are mine, feel free to make up your own):

aim-and pivot -- you aim without side spin, then pivot the stick about a point, usually the bridge hand, and then you take some warm-up strokes along the new line, and then you shoot.

aim-and-swoop -- you aim without side spin, and then on the final forward stroke, you pull your backhand in or push it out.

on-line-by-feel -- (this is what I use) come down on the correct line for the spin, speed, distance, cloth, and elevation required to move the cue ball to where it needs to be.

And to complicate matters, the latest issue of Inside Pool has an article in which Andy Segal claims that the grip hand has a tremendous influence in how much squirt a stick has.

 

[ramdadingdong]

Joey,
I guess I would disagree that parallel English doesn't work. All four of the pro's that I have worked with use parallel English exclusively (though I still persist in using "pivot English" for those 89 degree cut shots). We can all spin the ball like a mother if we want - you just have to strike the cue ball farther from the center (Close to the Edge for you Yes fans). When I first started, it was UNCOMFORTABLY close to the edge, it takes a bit of getting used to. The advantage is you don't have to screw up that pre-shot routine, setup, and perfectly reproducible stroke you have slaved away to develop - you can use it on English shots also. JMO also.

_______________________________________________________________
Dear Sir, an 89 degree shot sir cannot be made, that is impossible. Most of what you think is 90 is 78, few of you will ever be able to cut a ball more than 82-83 degrees. That is putting a ball on the spot where it has to travel to pocket two feet. It the travel distance is 2", then a greater cut is then possible. I know 19 people will come back in angry swearing they cut 90, no, you cut 78. In all due respect, few of you even know what a true 90 shot even looks like. Set one up and try to make if off the the break spot and when you can't even get close, then and only then will you know I am right.

Try this, you have a half ball cut in the left far corner, you wish to use one tip right running english, the preferred method to twirl the shot in and defeat cling. You wish to swing around 3 rails and bring the cue ball to the center of the table. Line up the shot with cue tip on the center of the CB, then slide the cue shaft and hand one tip over from center at 3:00, now slide the head over also so you are now looking down the new aim line, now raise your chin, tilt your head back an inch or two, notice how your aim line improves. Try this, see how it works for you.

This is being taught by Hal Houle and the trick shot guy that used to post on here. I was told this was the method Ralph Greenleaf used and he taught it to Willie Mosconi.

 

[Williebetmore]

_______________________________________________________________
Dear Sir, an 89 degree shot sir cannot be made, that is impossible. .

Rama,
Actually I was exagerrating, I just meant extreme cut shots (I don't measure them with a protractor). Hell, I have trouble with the 45 degree shots.

 

[sjm]

Actually, "aim-and-pivot" is used by many BCA instructors as a way to introduce beginners to the aiming compensation required for side spin.

Bob, this thread has my head spinning a little. I am familiar with backhand english, but, like williebetmore, I generally use parallel. My personal take on backhand english it is that mastering it is not very important, but I wonder.
For example, Wayne wrote:

There are situations where backhand english is better and others where conventional english is more workable....

It is best to know and be able to use both types because there are many situations where one is much better than the other and there are things you can do with one that aren't even possible with the other.Wayne

That you can create many cue ball paths with backhand english that can't be created with parallel came as quite a surprise to me.

What is your take on this? Do you concur with Wayne that there are numerous cue ball paths that can only be created with either backhand or parallel, but not both? How important is it to add backhand english to one's game if one doesn't use it?