Why I conceded my match against Corey Duel

[Nostroke]

As an aside, I am surprised to hear about the UPA Representative Frank Alvarez exhibiting a negative behavior. Although I will be the first to admit that I am definitely not a fan of the UPA, I do admire Frank Alvarez as a player and a person. I believe his intentions are sincere relating to the men's professional organization that is currently the sanctioning body in the United States.

My interactions with him have always been very pleasurable, and although I have not agreed on some topics with Frankie-Boy, as I fondly call him, he has always been very friendly and treated me with the utmost respect. He's just wearing the wrong patch on his sleeve (IMHO).

JAM

I started out thinking the UPA had only unselfish intentions. I wanted to believe but i no longer do.

I dont know Mr A personally but as a player? I see he has cummulative earnings of of $1000.00 the past 3 years. He is way overdue to snap something off!

 

[sjm]

I don't think "paying customers" is the right terminology relating to pool events where the professional players in today's pool world usually pay their own way and are not compensated with an appearance fee. The customers provide income, and hopefully a profit, to the tournament promoter and/or organizer for making these events happen.

Think I know where you're coming from here, JAM, and I agree with the spirit of what you're saying in so many ways. Like you, I long for the day when the pros in our sport will get appearance fees and will earn a far better living than they do today.

Still, there's another side of me that says that without the paying fans of today, there would be far fewer willing to put up the money to sponsor tournaments. I seriously doubt there's even one male pro player out there whose position is "the fans matter to the tournament sponsors but not nearly as much to me." I spend a lot of money to go to pool events, about $500 alone on seats for the upcoming BCA Open for me and my travelling companion. I've surely spent over $1,000 on pro event seats in each of the last five years. Am I not a paying customer of pro pool?

 

[JAM]

...there's another side of me that says that without the paying fans of today, there would be far fewer willing to put up the money to sponsor tournaments. I seriously doubt there's even one male pro player out there whose position is "the fans matter to the tournament sponsors but not nearly as much to me." I spend a lot of money to go to pool events, about $500 alone on seats for the upcoming BCA Open for me and my travelling companion. I've surely spent over $1,000 on pro event seats in each of the last five years. Am I not a paying customer of pro pool?

Truth be told, SJM, if one were to compare "professional" pool to other sports, i.e., MLB, NBA, NFL, PGA, pocket billiards, at least here in the United States, is quite a small community.

The pro players have no name-brand recognition. If you were to venture over to a random BCA League weekly tournament, I'd venture to guess that the majority of the member players haven't the foggiest idea who some of today's pool champions are by name.

As much is I love to see professional pool at its finest at various events throughout the year, when I look in the stands at the audience members, a large percentage of the spectators and fans are players' friends, families, and the players themselves. In my opinion, professional pool is not a big money-maker. The events which include amateur pool is what is going to advance the sport in the long run, which will attract new monies and hopefully some interest.

Pool continues to suffer in mainstream America. Who cares if Efren Reyes, Johnny Archer, Allison Fisher, or Karen Corr [just to randomly pick four names] perform live? I do, you may, but to be fair about it, the players incur damn near the same costs of attending these tournaments as the paying spectators.

For too long, the industry members strive to make a profit, but are they doing so with a mission of elevating the sport or stuffing their own pockets? It ain't the players who are laughing all the way to the bank on the proceeds. Some of them go bust quite often and end of leaving the sport for good, and without the capabilities to keep up with the tournament trail, the professional pool player will end up being a dinosaur with nowhere to roam. Without the players, there is no product to sell (IMO).

JAM

 

[sjm]

Truth be told, SJM, if one were to compare "professional" pool to other sports, i.e., MLB, NBA, NFL, PGA, pocket billiards, at least here in the United States, is quite a small community.

The pro players have no name-brand recognition. If you were to venture over to a random BCA League weekly tournament, I'd venture to guess that the majority of the member players haven't the foggiest idea who some of today's pool champions are by name.

As much is I love to see professional pool at its finest at various events throughout the year, when I look in the stands at the audience members, a large percentage of the spectators and fans are players' friends, families, and the players themselves. In my opinion, professional pool is not a big money-maker. The events which include amateur pool is what is going to advance the sport in the long run, which will attract new monies and hopefully some interest.

Pool continues to suffer in mainstream America. Who cares if Efren Reyes, Johnny Archer, Allison Fisher, or Karen Corr [just to randomly pick four names] perform live? I do, you may, but to be fair about it, the players incur damn near the same costs of attending these tournaments as the paying spectators.

For too long, the industry members strive to make a profit, but are they doing so with a mission of elevating the sport or stuffing their own pockets? It ain't the players who are laughing all the way to the bank on the proceeds. Some of them go bust quite often and end of leaving the sport for good, and without the capabilities to keep up with the tournament trail, the professional pool player will end up being a dinosaur with nowhere to roam. Without the players, there is no product to sell (IMO).

JAM

Thanks for a well written, well reasoned and well presented post, JAM. Thanks for spelling it out with such clarity. I think we're eye to eye here.

 

[wayne]

Didn't Danny say he was stiffed at Master's?. Cmon Danny give'm another chance!

There was a tournament called the Master's that Brady Behrman put on a few years ago which is the one that Harriman is owed money from (I don't believe it has anything to do with a pool hall called the Masters). Brady said in a post that he is paying off Harriman and he was also late on paying Charlie and Rodney Morris. It sounds like he is making good on paying off what he promised but it is taking him some time. If this is the case then Danny Harriman should maybe confirm this because from what he is saying it sounds like Behrman's stiffed him completely. Also in the post Brady pointed out that it was not the UPA's fault but his responsibility for the money owed.

Wayne

 

[Nostroke]

Truth be told, SJM, if one were to compare "professional" pool to other sports, i.e., MLB, NBA, NFL, PGA, pocket billiards, at least here in the United States, is quite a small community.

The pro players have no name-brand recognition. If you were to venture over to a random BCA League weekly tournament, I'd venture to guess that the majority of the member players haven't the foggiest idea who some of today's pool champions are by name.

As much is I love to see professional pool at its finest at various events throughout the year, when I look in the stands at the audience members, a large percentage of the spectators and fans are players' friends, families, and the players themselves. In my opinion, professional pool is not a big money-maker. The events which include amateur pool is what is going to advance the sport in the long run, which will attract new monies and hopefully some interest.

Pool continues to suffer in mainstream America. Who cares if Efren Reyes, Johnny Archer, Allison Fisher, or Karen Corr [just to randomly pick four names] perform live? I do, you may, but to be fair about it, the players incur damn near the same costs of attending these tournaments as the paying spectators.

For too long, the industry members strive to make a profit, but are they doing so with a mission of elevating the sport or stuffing their own pockets? It ain't the players who are laughing all the way to the bank on the proceeds. Some of them go bust quite often and end of leaving the sport for good, and without the capabilities to keep up with the tournament trail, the professional pool player will end up being a dinosaur with nowhere to roam. Without the players, there is no product to sell (IMO).

JAM

I agree with most everything you say JAM. It's pretty sad.

However I have to point out that there aren't a whole lot of promotors getting rich either as you imply.Lots of them have gone bust too.Even the successful ones have taken big losses and took huge risks before things got rolling.

 

[Nostroke]

There was a tournament called the Master's that Brady Behrman put on a few years ago which is the one that Harriman is owed money from (I don't believe it has anything to do with a pool hall called the Masters). Brady said in a post that he is paying off Harriman and he was also late on paying Charlie and Rodney Morris. It sounds like he is making good on paying off what he promised but it is taking him some time. If this is the case then Danny Harriman should maybe confirm this because from what he is saying it sounds like Behrman's stiffed him completely. Also in the post Brady pointed out that it was not the UPA's fault but his responsibility for the money owed.

Wayne

I know it seems weird that Danny was stiffed at the Masters run by Brady B and the UPA tournament held at Master's but if you read his first post, that is what he said. Mr Min owns Masters in Queens.

I don't know how else you could interpret what Danny said.
Id like to hear more about it as that post was the first i heard of it.

 

[Nostroke]

There was a tournament called the Master's that Brady Behrman put on a few years ago which is the one that Harriman is owed money from (I don't believe it has anything to do with a pool hall called the Masters). Brady said in a post that he is paying off Harriman and he was also late on paying Charlie and Rodney Morris. It sounds like he is making good on paying off what he promised but it is taking him some time. If this is the case then Danny Harriman should maybe confirm this because from what he is saying it sounds like Behrman's stiffed him completely. Also in the post Brady pointed out that it was not the UPA's fault but his responsibility for the money owed.

Wayne

The UPA is at fault as well. Their mission was to have true 'guaranteed money' at their sanctioned events which obviously did not occur here.

They were really sandbaggged though i admit. CW and the UPA had just taken so MUCH HEAT for not sanctioning the US OPEN. Then everyone got paid smoothly!

There was so much division and hard feelings, the UPA bent the rules and sanctioned the Masters as kind of a good will gesture (IMHO) and CAPOW!!!-it smacked them right in the face!! Even CW's check bounced!!

You know they say no good deed goes unpunished and it can be so true. Anyway all the above are my deductions based on the few facts that were public.

 

[wayne]

I know it seems weird that Danny was stiffed at the Masters run by Brady B and the UPA tournament held at Master's but if you read his first post, that is what he said. Mr Min owns Masters in Queens.

I don't know how else you could interpret what Danny said.
Id like to hear more about it as that post was the first i heard of it.

Well it looks like Danny Harriman should stay away from anything with Master in it, sounds like he got stiffed at the Masters tournament and at the Masters poolhall tournament. Maybe someone has more details on the Mr. Min deal.

Wayne

 

[christopheradam]

I don't think "paying customers" is the right terminology relating to pool events where the professional players in today's pool world usually pay their own way and are not compensated with an appearance fee. The customers provide income, and hopefully a profit, to the tournament promoter and/or organizer for making these events happen. Most aspiring pool players, the majority I should say, are NOT sponsored, do not receive a salary whether they play good or bad in competitive events, and strive to keep up with the tournament trail, often suffering great financial difficulties.

As far as the WPBA receiving more respect in the industry, the lady pros are dealing with an organization which has a proven track record and seems to be above board with its rules, not changing them to favor select players. Everybody seems to be created equal in the WPBA, and the ranking system is available for full disclosure on the WPBA website, to include the upcoming tour events WELL IN ADVANCE!

JAM

Do you think maybe more tournaments should charge for attending the tournament? I would gladly pay $$$ to see good pool up close. I attend the Mohegan sun International challgenge of champions every year and they pack the house for the Men and the women every year and they charge no admission fee. Then its winner take all 50,000 and everyone else goes home broke. Are most tournaments like this where its free to watch. Don't get me wrong, I like watching such great pool up close for free, but if its going to help the players for me to pay $20 or more to watch the matches, then I'm all for it. I had Mitch Laurence and Allen Hopkins in my way last year and could not see too great. With that Glass sound proof booth and that 6 ft 4+ Ref standing in my way, I would have loved to upgraded my seats for a 20 spot. .

 

[TheBook]

HELLO DANNY,EARL STRICKLAND HERE,Thanks for the positive comments about the straight pool.You are smart to see that it is a good way to play pool.If we can get the conditions right ,I think this could be a better game then 9-ball.I'm sorry about your misfortune with the UPA,I've had my differences too when I was World Champion,imagine that.Sincerely EARL

Earl

From what I understand you got stiffed big time on that Million Dollar Challenge when you broke and ran 11 racks in a row in that championship game. Apparently the promoters didn't think it was possible to make a challenge like that. At least it gives you some more ammo on why you are one of the best and should be in the Hall of Fame.

 

[chefjeff]

Truth be told, SJM, if one were to compare "professional" pool to other sports, i.e., MLB, NBA, NFL, PGA, pocket billiards, at least here in the United States, is quite a small community.

The pro players have no name-brand recognition. If you were to venture over to a random BCA League weekly tournament, I'd venture to guess that the majority of the member players haven't the foggiest idea who some of today's pool champions are by name.

As much is I love to see professional pool at its finest at various events throughout the year, when I look in the stands at the audience members, a large percentage of the spectators and fans are players' friends, families, and the players themselves. In my opinion, professional pool is not a big money-maker. The events which include amateur pool is what is going to advance the sport in the long run, which will attract new monies and hopefully some interest.

Pool continues to suffer in mainstream America. Who cares if Efren Reyes, Johnny Archer, Allison Fisher, or Karen Corr [just to randomly pick four names] perform live? I do, you may, but to be fair about it, the players incur damn near the same costs of attending these tournaments as the paying spectators.

For too long, the industry members strive to make a profit, but are they doing so with a mission of elevating the sport or stuffing their own pockets? It ain't the players who are laughing all the way to the bank on the proceeds. Some of them go bust quite often and end of leaving the sport for good, and without the capabilities to keep up with the tournament trail, the professional pool player will end up being a dinosaur with nowhere to roam. Without the players, there is no product to sell (IMO).

JAM

Good post, JAM.

It highlights why I constantly harp on marketing as the highest value. ALL of the problems will be solved when there are enough PAYING spectators that bring in enough sponsors.

The reason not many care about the pros, is they don't know about them! That THE point. No matter how good their games are, no matter what magic they do at the table, no money will flow until people want to see them. That's what's needed most.

A SHINING EXAMPLE:

Check out page 57 & 58 in the May '05 issue of Billiards Digest. Trick shot star, Stefano Pelinga, talks about how he has his vests crowded with sponsor logos. "I spend hours and hours every night on the computer and on the phone, calling the United States, calling Russia, calling all the countries and trying to get sponsors."

I'll jump off my soap box now and let Pelinga's actions speak for themselves.

Jeff Livingston

 

[DoomCue]

CW and the UPA had just taken so MUCH HEAT for not sanctioning the US OPEN. Then everyone got paid smoothly!

Anybody know if Mika will be attending the Open this year?

-djb

 

[Ctatyk]

I'm pretty sure that the Mohegan Sun doesn't charge any admission is because they assume that they'll more than make up for it when people stop to gamble. I think that perhaps charging a small fee for the "good seats" would be a great idea. It can do nothing but make the prize pool better. I'd be happy to pay for good seats at a pro event. Some of them...you do.

Then again, I'd pay admission to get into some "amateur" events. Take the state tourneys for instance. I'd pay if I was there as a spectator. There is generally some REALLY good pool played there. Perhaps they could give some relief to the players' "table fees" for the next year or add it to the next year's prize pool.

 

[landshark77]

The other side of the coin

The reason not many care about the pros, is they don't know about them! That THE point. No matter how good their games are, no matter what magic they do at the table, no money will flow until people want to see them. That's what's needed most.

How do you make that happen???

I like to think that I am pretty up on pool and who the Pros are. This past weekend I was at an event with Shawn Putnam playing. No cost to get in and I had a great view. Did I sweat his match for long.....no. Why? Because I had no action in that game. Simple fact. And I have said it before; action doesn't necessarily mean monetary stakes for me. I have discovered that the more matches I sweat, the more I want to play. I would much rather play the pros than to watch them, unless I have action on the match. And as sad as it is, I don't think I am the minority on this. Will I go to an event if I am not playing...yes...but if I don't have action on any of the matches it would have to be a social event to draw me there.

How many of you...supposed die hard billiards fans...would go to an event, where you didn't know (not know of) anyone playing, you were not playing yourself, and you didn't have a large group of people to socialize with??

 

[JohnnyP]

They used to have straight pool tourneys in the early '70's at the Biltmore Hotel, in downtown LA.

I didn't know who the players were. I just wanted to see some good pool.

 

[Danny Harriman]

To Wayne

Hello from Springfield,MO I have never been to good at handling my finances so when Bin Min's check bounced I remembered that I did wait a couple of months before depositing this particular check in my bank. Someone told me that he had probably closed the account, I am unorganized and as a result I lost the actual check that was sent back to me in the mail. So I simply called Mr. Bin Min and told him the situation, we agreed that I would get a copy of this $400.00 dollar check from my bank and send it his way he told me that once he got the copy he would send me a new check. Well I called him back three weeks later and he acted funny and said in broken engish that this was not the original check, as if we had never spoken before I then felt vibes of the {whammy.} All he wants me to do now is send him another copy but admits to getting the first one this is strange because the copy of the check that frank alvarez says does not exist Bin Min has which by the way does have a check # on it. I have hustled pool and done other deviant things that go along with the lifestyle of being a pool player, although one thing I do pride myself on is being honest. I may get paid yet from Bin Min but I do have my doubts thanks for your concern.
Sincerely "The Springfield Kid" Danny Harriman

 

[Danny Harriman]

I remember you Humphrey

Thanks for understanding
Danny

 

[Danny Harriman]

Thanks for the post

Hello Celtic,
I just wanted to thank you for your viewpoint on this matter, I have been struggling from tourney to "" and the leading rep for the upa had been hounding me for this fee for the last 4 tourneys. At the Bicycle Club right before my match against Corey this frank alvarez character got up in my face and threatened to not let me play as a pro if I did'nt pay this fee and I'm not exaggerating he was in my face. I went and splashed some cold water on my face and said to myself don't let this weirdo bother you but I have enough pressure dealing with getting from tourney to "" without having to deal with idiots like frank, he feels since he cant play he should take it out on the good players. He later smiled after I forfeited my match to Corey, I must admit that the huge pockets we were playing a part in my frustration also. I had thouhght pleny of times before about quitting the pro tour and getting a job, those thoughts had never been any stronger than when I was playing Corey. They had made a rule at the players meeting that if you forfeit a match you would then be restricted from playing in any upa event for the rest of the year. So I now have a job and even though someone recently offered me a full sponsorship I turned it down, I realize that I should not have even started the match against Corey and that your right. I am not asking for symathy or attention but more to just state my case.
Thanks for helping me realize my mistake.
Danny Harriman
trebuenonsond@yahoo.com

 

[Travis Bickle]

How many of you...supposed die hard billiards fans...would go to an event, where you didn't know (not know of) anyone playing, you were not playing yourself, and you didn't have a large group of people to socialize with??

I've probably never had a LARGE group of people to socialize with in my entire life, so I can't answer that point.

But I did -- going solo and not playing and not in any action -- enjoy a couple of late undercard matches involving guys I hardly knew of and who had zero chance of winning at last summer's Big Apple tournament in Queens. There was a fantastic safety battle (with at least one player on the hill) between Edgar Acaba and a local player whose name I can't remember now, that Acaba finally won with a terrific nudge-kick ... and a ragged end to a hill-hill match between Rob Hart and another guy whose name escapes me, a Puerto Rican player maybe, with Hart barking, as his winning, table-length, slow-rolled 9 headed home, "BALLS OF STEEL!"

You're beyond enjoying stuff like that now?