Why is there a Womans league and a Mens Pool League ...

The King

The King

Here's Jimbo....
Silver Member
I was talking with a friend of mine the other day and he asked a serious question that kind of made sense to me ... I may get fried for posting it here on the forums but here it is ...lol...

Why is there two different leagues ? A womans league and a man's league ? In this day of equal rights where woman want to be paid equal to the man and do a mans job why is there two different leagues?

The Woman have a very successful touring league while the mens league tours seem to struggle ... But why are they seperate there is nothing here in this sport that should seperate men from woman ... I mean come on we are talking about a 19 oz cue maybe 21 oz at the most ... A toddler can carry that ... You don't have to be strong to be good , There is nothing in this sport that a woman cannot do just as good as a man or vise versa ... It's 90 percent mental 10 percent skill.... So they say that applies to every human on this planet ... It is like bowling why two leagues that ball is not that heavy ... Heck if a woman can go out to war in the service like a man she can surely tote a cue stick or bowling ball in the same leagues...

Even in our local pool leagues when we have our awards ceremonies we have the same awards for men that we do for women... There is a top 10 for men ... And a top 10 for women ... MVP for men, MVP for women , Most 8 ball breaks for men , most 8 ball breaks for women etc... etc ... Why are they seperate ? Why should they be ??? Women can be just as good as men at this game there is no reason the can't be why are they held seperate especially in todays world where women have become so independent ...

I'm not try to come across as being a male chauvinist whatever ... Heck I can hardly spell it ... It is a serious question with no bad intentions it's only purpose is to start conversation about this subject here on the board...

Thank you ... Please don't kill the messenger...lol...;)
 
B/c someone like Santos Sambajon can give a top 20 player like Jennifer Chen the 6-out.
 
Yes ...

I understand that and what you are saying but why is that ??? A woman can spend just as much time on a table as a man can ... There is no reason a woman cannot be that good in my opinion ... Am I wrong ?
 
Maybe you should do a forum search on all of the battles that have gone on here about why men and women are not equal. There are pages upon pages of them. You will get a very wide variety of answers.

And yes, it seems that there should be no division between men and women when it comes to a game that doesn't take strength, but there is a huge gap. How much longer will there be a gap....who knows.

Sarah
 
different but equal

The break for one.



For many reasons there are not as many females who want to devote a life to the game as there are men



Men and women are built differently:muscle fiber;hand size;body size...
 
Two apparent reasons:

1.) Skill level -- Across the board, the men are generally better than women. Only a few of the women can really compete with the men.

2.) Marketing -- Trying to get the male pros to appeal to an ESPN-watching audience is a tough proposition. Meanwhile, the WPBA has maintained a high standard of professionalism and camaraderie that lends to a good deal of the success of the tour. And I believe much of it has to do with the "W" in the WPBA. How many times have we wondered when the men will catch up to the women in terms of the marketing game?

3.) I realize I only said two reasons, but actually -- as far as I know, "Men's" events are open to women... right? Women were invited to the recent Predator 10-ball event in Las Vegas, and regularly compete in local/regional tours. Seeing that there is no unified men's tour, I think a lot of this (your post and mine) is meaningless. The real question may be: "Why aren't men allowed in Women's Tournaments?" ... but such a question just sounds idiotic.
 
JoeyInCali said:
B/c someone like Santos Sambajon can give a top 20 player like Jennifer Chen the 6-out.
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Like joey said.

Theres only a few that stand a chance in a mens tourney. They can make more money and win more tourneys if they have their own tour.
 
APA has the monopoly on league play here, and Wed night is ladies league. The other nights are mixed, anyone can play, but Wed. is for the ladies.
I think the women in my area who are playing in the ladies only league, don't like getting hit on by the guys on open league nights, most of them don't swing that way.

Bager
 
The King said:
I was talking with a friend of mine the other day and he asked a serious question that kind of made sense to me ... I may get fried for posting it here on the forums but here it is ...lol...

Why is there two different leagues ? A womans league and a man's league ? In this day of equal rights where woman want to be paid equal to the man and do a mans job why is there two different leagues?

The Woman have a very successful touring league while the mens league tours seem to struggle ... But why are they seperate there is nothing here in this sport that should seperate men from woman ... I mean come on we are talking about a 19 oz cue maybe 21 oz at the most ... A toddler can carry that ... You don't have to be strong to be good , There is nothing in this sport that a woman cannot do just as good as a man or vise versa ... It's 90 percent mental 10 percent skill.... So they say that applies to every human on this planet ... It is like bowling why two leagues that ball is not that heavy ... Heck if a woman can go out to war in the service like a man she can surely tote a cue stick or bowling ball in the same leagues...

Even in our local pool leagues when we have our awards ceremonies we have the same awards for men that we do for women... There is a top 10 for men ... And a top 10 for women ... MVP for men, MVP for women , Most 8 ball breaks for men , most 8 ball breaks for women etc... etc ... Why are they seperate ? Why should they be ??? Women can be just as good as men at this game there is no reason the can't be why are they held seperate especially in todays world where women have become so independent ...

I'm not try to come across as being a male chauvinist whatever ... Heck I can hardly spell it ... It is a serious question with no bad intentions it's only purpose is to start conversation about this subject here on the board...

Thank you ... Please don't kill the messenger...lol...;)
Click to expand...

The league owners make more money this way. This way they have more not to add to tournaments.
 
sarahrousey said:
Maybe you should do a forum search on all of the battles that have gone on here about why men and women are not equal. There are pages upon pages of them. You will get a very wide variety of answers.

And yes, it seems that there should be no division between men and women when it comes to a game that doesn't take strength, but there is a huge gap. How much longer will there be a gap....who knows.

Sarah
Click to expand...

The gap will last until you play the majority of the men on here.
 
We can start off with the plain and simple truth which is this - the overall level of skill currently exhibited by men is greater than women. This applies to pool and most other sports. However, there is an audience that is interested in women's pool and women who are interested in competing with other women.

With that said, you are correct. There is absolutely no physical, mental or emotional reason whatsoever why a woman cannot play as strong as a man and the fact is, there are some women that can beat anyone. However, these women are anomolies and to find out exactly HOW they overcame the difficulties most women face would require some investigation.

The primary reason, from what I can tell, why women overall are not playing on par with men has to do with historical supression of women. It's part of their everyday life from birth to death. They are taught that men are meant to do things that they are not meant to do. Until the childhood sports experience, the poolroom experience and societal structure provides an equal playing field, I think we will always see a discrepancy between the sexes which is terribly unfortunate.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
We can start off with the plain and simple truth which is this - the overall level of skill currently exhibited by men is greater than women. This applies to pool and most other sports. However, there is an audience that is interested in women's pool and women who are interested in competing with other women.

With that said, you are correct. There is absolutely no physical, mental or emotional reason whatsoever why a woman cannot play as strong as a man and the fact is, there are some women that can beat anyone. However, these women are anomolies and to find out exactly HOW they overcame the difficulties most women face would require some investigation.

The primary reason, from what I can tell, why women overall are not playing on par with men has to do with historical supression of women. It's part of their everyday life from birth to death. They are taught that men are meant to do things that they are not meant to do. Until the childhood sports experience, the poolroom experience and societal structure provides an equal playing field, I think we will always see a discrepancy between the sexes which is terribly unfortunate.
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Jude I think you hit the nail right on the head. For years it has not been ok (and I would argue in many circles it's still not) for women to devote the amount of time it takes to become a top level professional. Society teaches them to care more about having children, getting married, and focusing on the home, not staying at the pool hall until the wee hours of the morning.
That being said, I feel like we're seeing a slow change and more women are competing in the "open events."
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
The primary reason, from what I can tell, why women overall are not playing on par with men has to do with historical supression of women. It's part of their everyday life from birth to death. They are taught that men are meant to do things that they are not meant to do. Until the childhood sports experience, the poolroom experience and societal structure provides an equal playing field, I think we will always see a discrepancy between the sexes which is terribly unfortunate.
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Wow, Jude... I agree with everything you said until this... We aren't in the 1950s anymore... I don't know about the rest of you ladies, but I certainly wasn't taught that I wasn't meant to do the things that men are meant to do. In fact, I was taught I could do anything. I may not have proven to be a pool god, but as far as other things in my life go (career, success level, etc) I feel I have already beaten out the majority of the boys I grew up with. And I really haven't felt oppressed as a woman.

In my opinion, they separate the leagues because of physical differences, and the overwhelming majority of male players to female players. If it was purely co-ed, I think you would find that the female participation would start to die out.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
We can start off with the plain and simple truth which is this - the overall level of skill currently exhibited by men is greater than women. This applies to pool and most other sports. However, there is an audience that is interested in women's pool and women who are interested in competing with other women.

With that said, you are correct. There is absolutely no physical, mental or emotional reason whatsoever why a woman cannot play as strong as a man and the fact is, there are some women that can beat anyone. However, these women are anomolies and to find out exactly HOW they overcame the difficulties most women face would require some investigation.

The primary reason, from what I can tell, why women overall are not playing on par with men has to do with historical supression of women. It's part of their everyday life from birth to death. They are taught that men are meant to do things that they are not meant to do. Until the childhood sports experience, the poolroom experience and societal structure provides an equal playing field, I think we will always see a discrepancy between the sexes which is terribly unfortunate.
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LOL. I dont know the women you hang around with but if I were to tell some of the female players I know "Don't worry about not playing as good as the men. Its not your fault, you were oppressed your whole life" I would probably get a wicked look and kick in the shins.

If I had to guess a reason why it simply comes down to numbers and noise. There are a whole lot less female players than male players to begin with therefore you are going to have fewer top level players. I believe the reason there are are fewer female players who pursue the game seriously is the fact that there is so much noise for them to fight through in order to reach a high level. By noise I mean idiots that wont leave them alone and the C player instructors. Even if a girl likes pool, after 4 or 5 encounters with Joe "Im a stud let me show you how to play" Idiot she often will just move on to the next interesting hobby without the idiots.

I give the ones who stick with it a lot of credit.

Just my theory.
 
lodini said:
Wow, Jude... I agree with everything you said until this... We aren't in the 1950s anymore... I don't know about the rest of you ladies, but I certainly wasn't taught that I wasn't meant to do the things that men are meant to do. In fact, I was taught I could do anything. I may not have proven to be a pool god, but as far as other things in my life go (career, success level, etc) I feel I have already beaten out the majority of the boys I grew up with. And I really haven't felt oppressed as a woman.

In my opinion, they separate the leagues because of physical differences, and the overwhelming majority of male players to female players. If it was purely co-ed, I think you would find that the female participation would start to die out.
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Hey Lodini,

Because I know you, I might have a bit of inside information on your opinion. You're right - we're not in the 1950s and things HAVE changed for the better but that doesn't erase how things were until recently. I'm sorry, I've watched the crowd of yoyos decend on the lone woman at the poolroom ready to harrass her at every turn.

The bottom line is, I think Karen Corr and Alison Fisher have both displayed that women can compete with men even though they possess subpar physical strength (neither breaks over 20mph).

Also, you're one tough woman. You exhibit that type of personality that's going to yield the results you discuss and the opinions you possess. My opinion isn't absolute. It doesn't apply to each and every woman by far (and thank God for that). However, I think if you look at women even 10 years older than you and women in other parts of the country/world, you're going to see a difference in their perception on equality.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
Also, you're one tough woman. You exhibit that type of personality that's going to yield the results you discuss and the opinions you possess. My opinion isn't absolute. It doesn't apply to each and every woman by far (and thank God for that). However, I think if you look at women even 10 years older than you and women in other parts of the country/world, you're going to see a difference in their perception on equality.
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Well, thank you for the compliment... but I can't blame it all on my inherent nature... 99% of it was upbringing:D
 
JCIN said:
LOL. I dont know the women you hang around with but if I were to tell some of the female players I know "Don't worry about not playing as good as the men. Its not your fault, you were oppressed your whole life" I would probably get a wicked look and kick in the shins.

If I had to guess a reason why it simply comes down to numbers and noise. There are a whole lot less female players than male players to begin with therefore you are going to have fewer top level players. I believe the reason there are are fewer female players who pursue the game seriously is the fact that there is so much noise for them to fight through in order to reach a high level. By noise I mean idiots that wont leave them alone and the C player instructors. Even if a girl likes pool, after 4 or 5 encounters with Joe "Im a stud let me show you how to play" Idiot she often will just move on to the next interesting hobby without the idiots.

I give the ones who stick with it a lot of credit.

Just my theory.
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Actually, the word I used was "suppress". It's slightly different but I'd like to keep things accurate.

And OF COURSE the women at the poolroom are going to give you that stern look. How about the women who aren't at the poolroom? Of the top 10 men in New York City, I would venture to say ALL OF THEM started playing pool before they graduated high school. Of the top 10 women in New York City, I would say ALL OF THEM started playing pool after the age of 20. Why is that?
 
There is another reason that no-one else seems to have picked up on - The women Pros are separate because they actually have a functional Pro tour to play on, and they have that because they have worked hard at it and built it from the ground up for over 20 years.

My understanding is there was an attempt to merge the Men and Women in the 80's (Under the PBT perhaps?) but this fell apart and ever since then they have been running it by themselves for themselves. No, they have never had any 6 or 7 figure added tournaments, but they have consistently held 4 and 5 figure added tournaments and have a valid and functional national ranking and qualifying system. They appear to have excellent relationships with venues and sponsors. They maintain consistent televised coverage on ESPN. They get their venues setup, establish the rules, regularly attract new players and pay out prize purses correctly.

None of this happens easily or by accident.

Frankly all the arguments over the UPA, IPT, BCA WPA etc. baffles me. Instead of trying to constantly re-invent a broken wheel they should simply beg on bended knee Peggy Ledman or anyone else from the WPBA organization who is willing to develop and run a MPBA as a carbon-copy of the WPBA.

The only reason I can see that the WPBA would want to change themselves would be for more money. This was made clear during the brief, shining moment when the IPT was actually paying out and many female Pros stepped up to play. Had the IPT had actually succeeded at those prize levels I'd guess that within a few years you'd see maybe 10-15% of the proposed 150 tour-card holding players would be women. That could have been a death-blow for the WPBA, but unless it ever gets off the ground again (you will know because it will be accompanied by a flock of pigs flying in formation along side it) we'll never know.

I don't think female Pro participation will ever get to a much higher level at present simply due to there being far fewer women in the sport at any level compared to men and not enough financial or social incentive. We have no idea how much female Pool playing talent is being wasted by women who'll never pick up a cue in their lives.
 
JoeyInCali said:
B/c someone like Santos Sambajon can give a top 20 player like Jennifer Chen the 6-out.
Click to expand...

then there're guys like shane running 8+racks of ten ball or john shmidt running 400 balls when the womens high run is somewhere in the 150 range.
 
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