Why Is There Such A Stigma Concerning Adam / Helmstetter Point Blanks And Cues

manwon

manwon

"WARLOCK 1"
Silver Member
Hello AZ, I have been assembling information and researching cues and cue makers for many years as an enthusiast. I personally love the art of cue making, so I study the history of this art as a past time. I would like to start a discussion on the Adam / Helmstetter cue company. There appears to me to be a stigma when it comes to this company, and I really do not understand it.

Most people are aware that the Adam / Helmstetter cue company was a collaboration between Richard Helmstetter and David Forman. Most are also aware that Richard Helmstetter was the driving force behind this collaboration. Recently in another thread, the possibility of Helmstteter blanks being used by Pete Tascarrela was brought out. This was not well received throughout this forum by many members. It is a well known fact that many of the great cue makers used blanks made by Burton Spain, Gus Szamboti, and many also used the Full Splice Titlist Blanks made by Brunswick. This appears to be desirable, however the mention of Adam / Helmstetter blanks are met with negative over tones and in some cases disdain.

I do not really understand this, while everyone gives credit to Burton Spain, and Gus Szamboti as a innovators concerning point blank construction, no one appears to give Richard Helmstetter the credit he so greatly deserves. The point blanks that were produced by the Adam cue company were absolutely equal to any blanks produced by anyone during this time frame and even today. Even the Palmer Custom cue company made a transition from Custom Cue maker, in the late 1970's and Palmer went to Adam / Helmstetter for production of the PM and PB Lines, which were produced through the 1980's.

In my opinion, the point blank construction produced by Adam / Helmstetter were Consistent, expertly executed, readily available, and equal to any made from 1970 to date, so what is the negative side to having used them?

Please anyones thoughts on this subject would be appreciated.

Have a great 4th of July!!!
 
I fully agreeIhave a few older cues with the fancy fore arms there great!!
still straight and looking good theres many cue makers out there today making much better cues the some of those dinosaurs from the 60's and 70's
 
I thought i was the only one.

manwon said:
Hello AZ, I have been assembling information and researching cues and cue makers for many years as an enthusiast. I personally love the art of cue making, so I study the history of this art as a past time. I would like to start a discussion on the Adam / Helmstetter cue company. There appears to me to be a stigma when it comes to this company, and I really do not understand it.

Most people are aware that the Adam / Helmstetter cue company was a collaboration between Richard Helmstetter and David Forman. Most are also aware that Richard Helmstetter was the driving force behind this collaboration. Recently in another thread, the possibility of Helmstteter blanks being used by Pete Tascarrela was brought out. This was not well received throughout this forum by many members. It is a well known fact that many of the great cue makers used blanks made by Burton Spain, Gus Szamboti, and many also used the Full Splice Titlist Blanks made by Brunswick. This appears to be desirable, however the mention of Adam / Helmstetter blanks are met with negative over tones and in some cases disdain.

I do not really understand this, while everyone gives credit to Burton Spain, and Gus Szamboti as a innovators concerning point blank construction, no one appears to give Richard Helmstetter the credit he so greatly deserves. The point blanks that were produced by the Adam cue company were absolutely equal to any blanks produced by anyone during this time frame and even today. Even the Palmer Custom cue company made a transition from Custom Cue maker, in the late 1970's and Palmer went to Adam / Helmstetter for production of the PM and PB Lines, which were produced through the 1980's.

In my opinion, the point blank construction produced by Adam / Helmstetter were Consistent, expertly executed, readily available, and equal to any made from 1970 to date, so what is the negative side to having used them?

Please anyones thoughts on this subject would be appreciated.

Have a great 4th of July!!!
Click to expand...
I thought i was the only one who had this in mind. The Adams And Helmstetter cues i had always though would be great conversion cues in the future. I think cue makers are missing out on another source for wood here. Some of the old Adams solid one piece butts would make great hitting cues.
 
manwon said:
Hello AZ, I have been assembling information and researching cues and cue makers for many years as an enthusiast. I personally love the art of cue making, so I study the history of this art as a past time. I would like to start a discussion on the Adam / Helmstetter cue company. There appears to me to be a stigma when it comes to this company, and I really do not understand it.

Most people are aware that the Adam / Helmstetter cue company was a collaboration between Richard Helmstetter and David Forman. Most are also aware that Richard Helmstetter was the driving force behind this collaboration. Recently in another thread, the possibility of Helmstteter blanks being used by Pete Tascarrela was brought out. This was not well received throughout this forum by many members. It is a well known fact that many of the great cue makers used blanks made by Burton Spain, Gus Szamboti, and many also used the Full Splice Titlist Blanks made by Brunswick. This appears to be desirable, however the mention of Adam / Helmstetter blanks are met with negative over tones and in some cases disdain.

I do not really understand this, while everyone gives credit to Burton Spain, and Gus Szamboti as a innovators concerning point blank construction, no one appears to give Richard Helmstetter the credit he so greatly deserves. The point blanks that were produced by the Adam cue company were absolutely equal to any blanks produced by anyone during this time frame and even today. Even the Palmer Custom cue company made a transition from Custom Cue maker, in the late 1970's and Palmer went to Adam / Helmstetter for production of the PM and PB Lines, which were produced through the 1980's.

In my opinion, the point blank construction produced by Adam / Helmstetter were Consistent, expertly executed, readily available, and equal to any made from 1970 to date, so what is the negative side to having used them?

Please anyones thoughts on this subject would be appreciated.

Have a great 4th of July!!!
Click to expand...
It is probably because they were made in Japan. Many don't like anythign that was not USA made. Another cuemaker who made alot of blanks gets almost no credit as a blank maker and that is Bob Meucci. Bob made the Wico blanks as a sideline business of his own. Bushka used some of Bob's blanks and some act like it is blasphemy to give Bob credit for it. Viking made blanks also, but you rarely hear about that either.
 
cueman said:
It is probably because they were made in Japan. Many don't like anythign that was not USA made. Another cuemaker who made alot of blanks gets almost no credit as a blank maker and that is Bob Meucci. Bob made the Wico blanks as a sideline business of his own. Bushka used some of Bob's blanks and some act like it is blasphemy to give Bob credit for it. Viking made blanks also, but you rarely hear about that either.
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I agree, completely that the fact they were made in Japan has influenced many to believe that. I also understand that Bob never received the credit he has deserved. But Balabushka was not the only famous cue maker to use those Blanks, Gus Szamboti also produced a limited amount of cues using them. But the most famous person from the 1960' throughout his life to make Blanks was Burton Spain. However, very few know that Burton Spain and Richard Helmstetter were not only friends, they also collaborated on point blank construction. Very few have ever studied the early Adam / Helmstetter blanks making comparisons between Burton Spain's early blanks, but if they did they would certainly be surprised, by what they find.

Thanks very much for your reply and information.
 
I have to say I am not turned off at all by Adams and Helmstetter cues,why people are is beyond me,perhaps its where they are made now.I have owned several old ones and liked that after 20-30 years they are still straight and in great shape.I just aquired an Adams from here because no one would purchase it for the $200 asking price, they missed out because the cue hits great and looks great too,I included some pics..I think Richard Helmstetter was way ahead of his time,thats why he moved operations overseas,he is one smart guy. :smile:
9b68cbca.jpg

199dc072.jpg

d623064b.jpg
 
cueman said:
It is probably because they were made in Japan. Many don't like anythign that was not USA made. Another cuemaker who made alot of blanks gets almost no credit as a blank maker and that is Bob Meucci. Bob made the Wico blanks as a sideline business of his own. Bushka used some of Bob's blanks and some act like it is blasphemy to give Bob credit for it. Viking made blanks also, but you rarely hear about that either.
Click to expand...

The Japanese makes a hell of a product. They are tops on my books. I pity the uninformed. Great topic/post.
 
I think its for two reasons. One cost of them has always been good. The other is I think the current adams cues tend to warp, at least the ones I've seen around here have had a lot of roll in the shafts when they are about 5 years old. That may be more to do with the owners than anything (cost is low enough that they don't take care of the cues like they should).

Now I firmly believe that Richard Helmstetter was a fantastic cue maker, and he and his partner saw a opportunity and took it. They still made a great cue in Japan, and even the current cues play pretty darn well.
 
Craig, I think the stigma exists because of this.....if this were to be the case, people may have bought items they thought were made "in-house" and "American made." If you are talking about all the old classic blanks (Titlist, Wico, Spain, Szam)....those were American made....and at the time, makers could not produce high quality blanks themselves. Now, these blanks are considered "classics" and a part of cuemaking history.

Personally, I don't think there is anything wrong with using a X (insert anything here....Prather, Duc, etc.) blank or Helmstetter blank but imho a cue made with something like that should not be the same cost as a blank fully constructed by the maker himself.....and here's the kicker.....especially a maker that's capable of making high quality blanks himself and charges thousands to make a fairly basic playing cue.

Sean (have heard all the rumors, don't know anything personally, but would like to see this put to rest once and for all)
 
Early Japanese blanks were not that good. I remember a few of the ones we had in the Palmers, and Brunswicks were just plain cheezy and of low quality. I remember seeing a black, maple, black, maple blank that was made over seas on a few Palmers and none looked close to the quality the same blank by Gus was. Also the black, orange, blue and natural combinations commonly seen in Palmers and Brunswicks were also of low quality. These may or may not have been Adam blanks, I don't know of anyone I would trust in verifying this.

Chris, can you show me a Meucci blanked Bushka?

JV
 
heres one to see

this is one i aquired from texas the picture isnt the best
this work is 100% and in the lathe true 100%
 

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classiccues said:
Early Japanese blanks were not that good. I remember a few of the ones we had in the Palmers, and Brunswicks were just plain cheezy and of low quality. I remember seeing a black, maple, black, maple blank that was made over seas on a few Palmers and none looked close to the quality the same blank by Gus was. Also the black, orange, blue and natural combinations commonly seen in Palmers and Brunswicks were also of low quality. These may or may not have been Adam blanks, I don't know of anyone I would trust in verifying this.

Chris, can you show me a Meucci blanked Bushka?

JV
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Palmer started using Adam blanks for their 3rd catalog Palmer shop made cues with veneered prongs starting in 1975. The Adam blanks are generally fine quality. They typically are seen on the 3rd catalog Models 8,10,11, 13 and 14. I've seen enough of these models to have a pretty high opinion of the blanks, especially if the cues were made in the 1970's. (The Model's 12,15,16, 18, and 19 were Gus blanks, which is why these cues are not seen as often!).

Then in the early 1980's Palmer started buying blanks from KPS in Taiwan (Falcon). Those are not the same quality as the Adam blanks. That's when the quality was generally poor. If you see a Palmer with thin veneers, that's the sign of a KPS blank. I also think the Adam work declined in the 1980's. Their early cues seemed better to me.

Chris
 
TATE said:
Palmer started using Adam blanks for their 3rd catalog Palmer shop made cues with veneered prongs starting in 1975. The Adam blanks are generally fine quality. They typically are seen on the 3rd catalog Models 8,10,11, 13 and 14. I've seen enough of these models to have a pretty high opinion of the blanks, especially if the cues were made in the 1970's. (The Model's 12,15,16, 18, and 19 were Gus blanks, which is why these cues are not seen as often!).

Then in the early 1980's Palmer started buying blanks from KPS in Taiwan (Falcon). Those are not the same quality as the Adam blanks. That's when the quality was generally poor. If you see a Palmer with thin veneers, that's the sign of a KPS blank. I also think the Adam work declined in the 1980's. Their early cues seemed better to me.

Chris
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I believe this cue albeit incorrectly called a Spain is one of the blanks I commonly come across, and I have never seen it done to where it would be mistaken for a "good" blank.

black, orange, blue, natural

Another

Now even though I have sold an tremendous amount of Palmers and have seen more than I would care to remember. These cues normally have bad veneer work, veneers that appear to be scraggly or bleeding, I don't have a high regard for the imported blanks. A lot I have seen the points far from line up. Of course that could have been a Palmer issue, not a blank issue.

JV
 
I personally think the original thread got off track a little, I took it as the real question being, in today's market place people just really want to know what their paying for and who was envolved in making the actual blank. If I mis-understood, my apologies.
 
classiccues said:
I believe this cue albeit incorrectly called a Spain is one of the blanks I commonly come across, and I have never seen it done to where it would be mistaken for a "good" blank.

black, orange, blue, natural

Another

Now even though I have sold an tremendous amount of Palmers and have seen more than I would care to remember. These cues normally have bad veneer work, veneers that appear to be scraggly or bleeding, I don't have a high regard for the imported blanks. A lot I have seen the points far from line up. Of course that could have been a Palmer issue, not a blank issue.

JV
Click to expand...

You are correct, those are both Adams. The cues that were produced in the mid to late 70's using Adam forearms, like these, are usually pretty good. After that, I believe the Adam forearms too went downhill.

I have some that are really nice, but I agree, the overall quality is not up to Spain's.

Chris
 
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I'm at a loss because I missed the rumors

cueaddicts said:
Craig, I think the stigma exists because of this.....if this were to be the case, people may have bought items they thought were made "in-house" and "American made." If you are talking about all the old classic blanks (Titlist, Wico, Spain, Szam)....those were American made....and at the time, makers could not produce high quality blanks themselves. Now, these blanks are considered "classics" and a part of cuemaking history.

Personally, I don't think there is anything wrong with using a X (insert anything here....Prather, Duc, etc.) blank or Helmstetter blank but imho a cue made with something like that should not be the same cost as a blank fully constructed by the maker himself.....and here's the kicker.....especially a maker that's capable of making high quality blanks himself and charges thousands to make a fairly basic playing cue.

Sean (have heard all the rumors, don't know anything personally, but would like to see this put to rest once and for all)
Click to expand...
As to the cues, I love a lot of the old adams / helmstetters cues I have seen and hit with. I know a guy has a 1/1 Helmstetter made for him by Helmstetter and un-hit ..... Its gorgeous, very fancy, and a real head turner.

If I bought a cue though and had it converted, and all that was done was it was cleaned up, possibly turned and made skinny, a joint and shafts added, I would expect a substantially different price from one made from the makers blanks.
 
TATE said:
I agree, the overall quality is not up to Spain's.

Chris
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When you say quality, what do you look for?

p/s- Chris, I send you a PM, Pls reply. tks
 
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