Why Is There Such A Stigma Concerning Adam / Helmstetter Point Blanks And Cues

TATE said:
Jay,

They also used KPS in Taiwan, which generally had the description you gave. The top one could be KPS. I could tell if I could date the cue.
The bottom one (ebony on ebony) the Model 8 3rd catalog is Adam blank, which are better.


Chris
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Chris,

That top one is definatly not an adam.
But your right the bottom one is.
there are a lot of the kps versions of the maple and ebony cue i posted going for more than they are worth on ebay these days, being sold as vintage custom"or "70's adam, model unknown" I swear if they dont know what it is it automaticly become a Brunswick or an Adam.
it makes me cringe when they break a hundred (or even more) for a cue you can buy for $20.00 in a pawn shop .

Craig,

Great subject, It has been very interesting!

Jayman.
 
Speaking of Adam cues, I was thumbing through a 1986 issue of "Pool and Billiard" and I saw an ad of theirs for a line of Efren Reyes carom cues. I never knew those cues existed.
 
classiccues said:
According to the pricing sheet I posted of Burtons you could buy them short and long.

I like the Paradise as Burtons and the other three as Palmers, maybe not the far right? Tough pic.. would have liked to see them close up individually...

JV
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Something that came out after Spain was inducted into the International Cuemakers Hall of Fame was that Paradise actually never used any Spain blanks. We were written a letter from a Paradise family members saying Frank never used Spain blanks. We contacted Joel and he checked with Burton's partner from that era and came back and said he had been wrong about Frank buying blanks from Burton so were took that out of Burton's profile. That is still in print in other Cue Collectors books, so my guess is that there is a good bit more misinformation out there.
 
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cueman said:
Something that came out after Spain was inducted into the International Cuemakers Hall of Fame was that Paradise actually never used any Spain blanks. We were written a letter from a Paradise family members saying Frank never used Spain blanks. We contacted Joel and he checked with Burton's partner from that era and came back and said he he had been wrong about Frank buying blanks from Burton so were took that out of Burton's profile. That is still in print in other Cue Collectors books, so my guess is that there is a good bit more misinformation out there.
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Chris, this is very interesting info here.....
 
cueman said:
Something that came out after Spain was inducted into the International Cuemakers Hall of Fame was that Paradise actually never used any Spain blanks. We were written a letter from a Paradise family members saying Frank never used Spain blanks. We contacted Joel and he checked with Burton's partner from that era and came back and said he had been wrong about Frank buying blanks from Burton so were took that out of Burton's profile. That is still in print in other Cue Collectors books, so my guess is that there is a good bit more misinformation out there.
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Well Burton said, in print, he sold them to Paradise as has Jack Colavita who worked in the Paradise shop. According to Jack no one in the Paradise family other than Frank was involved in the cues. So it's pretty interesting someone out of the blue would make that statement. From talking to the late Colavita who was intimate with Frank's operation, he couldn't make a blank. Frank asked Jack numerous times to try and make some jigs, but that wasn't Jack's forte'. This came straight from Jack, so IMHO it's better than the bible.

Of course that is not counting Chuck Taylor, Paradise's nephew. If he wrote you the letter throw it away immediately. Anyone claiming to have ties to Frank outside of Buzzy, throw it away.

JV
 
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Would in not be simple as comparing unwrapped cues to known examples to prove he did indeed use Spain blanks?
 
hangemhigh said:
Would in not be simple as comparing unwrapped cues to known examples to prove he did indeed use Spain blanks?
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No. As you can tell from the entire thread that even the Palmers could be mistaken for something they aren't. Same with the Adam cues. So all you can do is compare colors, veneer thicknesses, little traits here and there. Paradise used a lot of rings so chances are anything he used, he cut short.

Like I mentioned, there was a guy named cuemuseum, aka Chuck Taylor, some other alias'. He made a lot of claims that he couldn't / wouldn't back up. He e-mailed everyone that would listen. He advertised he was Paradise's nephew, another false claim, he introduced Gus to George, I mean way out there claims. If you haven't been around that long, you won't know this guy and would probably buy into his spiel. Ask Marcus how reliable this guy is.

It takes a guy like this, one letter, one call, to disrupt or to muddy the waters on research that has already been done. 20 years ago, by people that live in the immediate area and had access to the right info 20 years ago. I would not put it past him to right that letter.

JV
 
hangemhigh said:
Would in not be simple as comparing unwrapped cues to known examples to prove he did indeed use Spain blanks?
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Unwrapping wouldn't reveal much on a Paradise because he cut the forearms short at the handle, so you couldn't compare the way the veneers are finished, which helps ID the blank.

I never questioned that Paradise used Spain blanks. There is too much evidence he did. I'll try to get some answers from first hand sources.

Chris
 
classiccues said:
No. As you can tell from the entire thread that even the Palmers could be mistaken for something they aren't. Same with the Adam cues. So all you can do is compare colors, veneer thicknesses, little traits here and there. Paradise used a lot of rings so chances are anything he used, he cut short.

Like I mentioned, there was a guy named cuemuseum, aka Chuck Taylor, some other alias'. He made a lot of claims that he couldn't / wouldn't back up. He e-mailed everyone that would listen. He advertised he was Paradise's nephew, another false claim, he introduced Gus to George, I mean way out there claims. If you haven't been around that long, you won't know this guy and would probably buy into his spiel. Ask Marcus how reliable this guy is.

It takes a guy like this, one letter, one call, to disrupt or to muddy the waters on research that has already been done. 20 years ago, by people that live in the immediate area and had access to the right info 20 years ago. I would not put it past him to right that letter.

JV
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JV, did Paradise ever use Blanks made by Palmer? What I mean, is since their shops were so close together, do you think he may have purchased some blanks from them?

Thanks Craig
 
manwon said:
JV, did Paradise ever use Blanks made by Palmer? What I mean, is since their shops were so close together, do you think he may have purchased some blanks from them?

Thanks Craig
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I don't know. I head it was hatred between him and Gene. Possible, but the legend says doubtful.

JV
 
hangemhigh said:
Would in not be simple as comparing unwrapped cues to known examples to prove he did indeed use Spain blanks?
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One other thing.. there is a wild card in the north east area.. few people know him. When you do meet and know him, your jaw hits the floor. He made 18-24 cues. Burton Spain and his own points. We had a few of his cues at VF this year. I will say a big name cuemaker thought and swore they were Bushka's, even told a story about how him and George discussed making these cues. Unfortunately for him, I had a chuckle and so did the maker who was standing right next to me and him. But you learn to let people, especially legends talk, it serves no purpose to correct them, cause they just blow it off and are to drunk to remember it the next day. But I am telling you he flat out said they were Bushkas and they ain't even close.

Back to this wildcard, it is where I got the Spain price sheet from. He even said in his conversations with Spain that Paradise and George were his two biggest custom cue customers in this area. So as far as I am concerned you would have to have an immense amount of discrediting and backed by solid proof to dispel what is already on record. Also this person had intimate cue conversations with George and can back them up with Bushka parts, even shafts, that he has.

JV
 
classiccues said:
One other thing.. there is a wild card in the north east area.. few people know him. When you do meet and know him, your jaw hits the floor. He made 18-24 cues. Burton Spain and his own points. We had a few of his cues at VF this year. I will say a big name cuemaker thought and swore they were Bushka's, even told a story about how him and George discussed making these cues. Unfortunately for him, I had a chuckle and so did the maker who was standing right next to me and him. But you learn to let people, especially legends talk, it serves no purpose to correct them, cause they just blow it off and are to drunk to remember it the next day. But I am telling you he flat out said they were Bushkas and they ain't even close.

Back to this wildcard, it is where I got the Spain price sheet from. He even said in his conversations with Spain that Paradise and George were his two biggest custom cue customers in this area. So as far as I am concerned you would have to have an immense amount of discrediting and backed by solid proof to dispel what is already on record. Also this person had intimate cue conversations with George and can back them up with Bushka parts, even shafts, that he has.

JV
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I remember you posting about this old gentleman, from Jersey,right?
 
classiccues said:
One other thing.. there is a wild card in the north east area.. few people know him. When you do meet and know him, your jaw hits the floor. He made 18-24 cues. Burton Spain and his own points. We had a few of his cues at VF this year. I will say a big name cuemaker thought and swore they were Bushka's, even told a story about how him and George discussed making these cues. Unfortunately for him, I had a chuckle and so did the maker who was standing right next to me and him. But you learn to let people, especially legends talk, it serves no purpose to correct them, cause they just blow it off and are to drunk to remember it the next day. But I am telling you he flat out said they were Bushkas and they ain't even close.

Back to this wildcard, it is where I got the Spain price sheet from. He even said in his conversations with Spain that Paradise and George were his two biggest custom cue customers in this area. So as far as I am concerned you would have to have an immense amount of discrediting and backed by solid proof to dispel what is already on record. Also this person had intimate cue conversations with George and can back them up with Bushka parts, even shafts, that he has.

JV
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JV, since so many blanks have similar characteristics, how are they identified. You mentioned By veneer thickness and veneer color can you go into any additional detail on this. I would appreciate any additional information.

Thanks Craig
 
Circa 1971 Adam built Brunswicks

Craig,

You know i dont care much for those early adam cues, But i thought you may enjoy these two that suck so badly that i cant sell them and allow them to taint the cue buying public. they are both unchalked since 1971.
(not worthy of the fine game of pool) ;)


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manwon said:
JV, since so many blanks have similar characteristics, how are they identified. You mentioned By veneer thickness and veneer color can you go into any additional detail on this. I would appreciate any additional information.

Thanks Craig
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Not without having them in front of me. This is something gained after having alot of them side by side, and looking at them for a long time.

JV
 
classiccues said:
Not without having them in front of me. This is something gained after having alot of them side by side, and looking at them for a long time.

JV
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Thanks for your reply and all the input throughout this thread, I have learned a great deal.

The Student Always!!!

Craig:)
 
After listening to the Balner (Pete) tape of 3/2/92

He clearly states that there was a guy his father was partners with in a lamp making business that turned down and made splices for them early on.

He also claims Frank Paradise was no craftsman, the machinist in his shop was just that, a machinist. There is nothing on Balners tape that leads me to believe that there was any blank making going on there. In fact when Vic asks him about the machinery in Franks shop Pete says just a few lathes.

He does mention some names in the interview.. Harry King worked for Paradise then Palmer, confirmed Colavita also helped Frank. Pete said while working for Paradise he made the change to nickel silver joints, after breifly trying stainless steel. So I gather any Paradise cue with the latter 2 materials were Balner era. Verified Mike Fedunka worked with Paradise, not Palmer.

This is straight off the research tape for the BB and BE.

JV
 
classiccues said:
Well Burton said, in print, he sold them to Paradise as has Jack Colavita who worked in the Paradise shop. According to Jack no one in the Paradise family other than Frank was involved in the cues. So it's pretty interesting someone out of the blue would make that statement. From talking to the late Colavita who was intimate with Frank's operation, he couldn't make a blank. Frank asked Jack numerous times to try and make some jigs, but that wasn't Jack's forte'. This came straight from Jack, so IMHO it's better than the bible.

Of course that is not counting Chuck Taylor, Paradise's nephew. If he wrote you the letter throw it away immediately. Anyone claiming to have ties to Frank outside of Buzzy, throw it away.

JV
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Where did Burton say this in print at? I made no allusions to where Frank got his blanks. It does not take much machinery to make full splice cues if you want to use square wood. I just said where I was told he did not get them. I would love to prove the Billiard Encylopedia and so on right, but until I see something I have to go with the last confirmation I got from Joel and Paradise family. I don't even remember who the relative was now. I just took the letter and sent Joel a copy and Joel got back to me after talking to Burton's partner at the time Frank would have been buying blanks and said they did not sell him any. Talk to Wayne Gunn and his partner sometime about the Palmer Paradise relationship and ask what all kind of parts they got from that operation.
 
cueman said:
Where did Burton say this in print at? I made no allusions to where Frank got his blanks. It does not take much machinery to make full splice cues if you want to use square wood. I just said where I was told he did not get them. I would love to prove the Billiard Encylopedia and so on right, but until I see something I have to go with the last confirmation I got from Joel and Paradise family. I don't even remember who the relative was now. I just took the letter and sent Joel a copy and Joel got back to me after talking to Burton's partner at the time Frank would have been buying blanks and said they did not sell him any. Talk to Wayne Gunn and his partner sometime about the Palmer Paradise relationship and ask what all kind of parts they got from that operation.
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It is right in his making blanks pamphlet, pages 5 and 6, as well as page 13. As far as the letter, I am just telling you about cuemuseum because of the things he was saying and that is right up his ally. Would Balner have not told Vic the truth in 1992? Pete says emphatically on the tape that he didn't sell any cue parts until 1967, the same year they started with the total line of billiard supplies.

JV
 
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