Why it's Important to Play Stronger Players (somewhat long)

C

cuetechasaurus

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm so used to playing weaker players for cheap sets, or for the table time. Usually I give up alot of weight, and I bear down as hard as I can so it kind of keeps me in stroke.

Recently, I've been playing people that play better than me even. We either play 9ball for $5-10 per game, or 1pocket, usually $10 agame. Usually, if all I have on me is like $40 of $50, I'll play a strong player and blow it all just for the practice. The last week or so I've been feeling pretty good, because I've been holding my own against them.

I broke even playing 1hole against one of the best players in the room. He was bearing down and playing decent, but not his full speed. Even so, he should have beaten me easy. I was thinking clearly and executing well enough for us to go back and forth, and finally he quit after four hours when we were even. I also played some 9ball with a player who plays just below the pro level at $5 a game. After two hours I was happy to only be stuck two games. He also wasn't playing his full speed, but he was running out alot, and so was I if the layout was decent.

Today I was feeling pretty confident with my game, and I played another strong player. He plays about two-three balls better than me. He's a strong shortstop. I happened to catch him on a day when he was in dead punch. The first three games I won, I was playing well. He scratched on the break and I ran out. I broke and hooked him, then ran out again. Similar thing on the third rack, hooked him on the three and he kicked and sold out, and I got out. Next thing I know, he starts firing back at me. I got careless and missed and easy shot, and left him a tough long distance cut down the rail. He speared it in and ran out, making it look easy. To make a long story short, the guy just couldn't miss anything. He played dead perfect lock up safeties, played real high percentage pool like the pros do.

All of a sudden, I can't make a ball to save my life. Once he started firing back at me, I broke down. I was scared to even let him see part of the ball if I played safe. When he's in dead punch nobody in the room can beat him. Nevertheless, with $60 in my pocket, which was all I had, (with like $20 in my bank account lol) I kept playing him at 5$ per game even. When he just kept getting better and better, my stroke got worse and worse. After I was stuck eight games I finally quit, and the time cost me the rest of my money.

The point of this post is that for the last few months, I've gotten too comfortable playing people that can't run out on a regular basis. Even when I give up alot of weight, if I leave them tough, I still expect to get back to the table most of the time. This has kind of hurt the mental side of my game. Playing someone like the guy I played today was kind of a wake up call, that to play top notch pool, you really can't make a mistake. When that registered in my mind, I broke down and couldn't do anything right.

I'm going to continue playing these tough players with no spot, and I need to get my mental game back to where it was when I was playing in big tournaments on a regular basis. I don't care if I lose my last few dollars, it's about time I paid my dues to learn this game. I'm not playing any weaker players anymore, no matter how much weight I give up. I need to keep playing someone that will run out, and maybe run a few more racks if I miss. I consider it cheap lessons, and I am proud to say that I don't get nitty when I play a very strong player cheap, like five or ten a game. Even if they are drilling me, I'll keep playing until I'm broke and won't ask for weight (unless of course if we are gonna play for alot of money, but I can't afford that right now).

Thoughts or comments would be appreciated.
 
I went through the same process you are now. I used to play the best guys I could find even up to see how my game was. The guys turned into my mentors so the money I lost was paying for "lessons"

On the flip side I played weaker players as well giving up weight to make some money and put a different kind of pressure on myself. I found if I just got hammered on by the best I wasn't winning enough to learn how to win....if you get my drift?! I was getting better very quickly but to just lose constantly wasn't helping anything.

Why shouldn't you have the same opportunity to win like the shortstops you are playing? When they play you, they are playing below their level right? so why don't you do the same thing?

When I started giving more and more weight and winning, then I would go back and test myself against the best I could find.....without always having to "tap MAC" ;)

BTW you are getting better EVERY match you play, be it against worse or better players.

Gerry
 
i've had my stroke fall apart on me while playing better players too. there've been a couple of occassions where i rose to the ocassion though. good luck man you sound like you got a lot of heart. sometimes i play weaker players to get money to play stronger players, you might want to try it
 
I think most of what you stated was rhetorical, and all I can do is agree.

Giving up weight may keep the pressure on for you, but competing with even or better players is the only way to improve your skills.

It takes a lot to keep you nose to the grindstone when your getting pummeled by better shooters. But how else can you learn what it takes, both physically and mentally to become an improved shooter. Watching these guys helps, but competing with them is much more effective, IMO.
 
cuetechasasurus,

It is refreshing to have a post that gets right to the 'heart' of the matter and helps answer the question we all have in the back of our minds. How is my game? In your whole post not once did you mention a cue, a case, a tip, or a tapper...this brings to mind the saying "it's not the meat is the motion". If you spend all your time in the kiddy pool you may never throw away the water wings....hehehehe Remember the first time you jumped off the high board? Scary stuff Manord....:) It does tend to focus the mind...:)

In the last paragraph of your post you say "I'm not playing any weaker players anymore". I wouldn't go that far because using your blue ribbon game against yellow ribbon players is a good mental test.

You are on the fast track to improvement. There is nothing like hot testing your speed to establish your place in the food chain......that's my story and I'm sticking to it....:)
 
People often note that their local champion, who seems to play almost perfect pool, gets beaten up like a red-headed step child when they match up against the pros.

Much of the reason I believe, is that that marginal higher ability that the pro possesses, combined with his consistancy, puts pressure on the local star that is beyond their usual experience, causing them to drop back their quality of play by a level or two.

It's easier to play yourself into form against an opponent who keeps giving you chances.

Hence, one of the key aspects of playing with better players is to learn to adapt to the increased pressure that doing so asserts. Plug away until you manage to construct a few sequences of your best form. And each time you manage this, it increases your self belief in being capable of playing to the best of your ability, even during times of high pressure crisis. After all, that's what is needed to beat the better players in tournaments.

That said, I'd also include practice alone and with players of similar or slightly less ability, so that episodes of experiencing the zone are a regular part of training.

Colin
 
a "truth"

This is something that I adopted as a "truth" long ago. No idea if I read it or figured it out for myself but the thought is simple and is true for the vast majority of people and situations.

At best, you only rise to a level good enough to beat the people you compete with.

You can be a big fish in a little pond and still just be a snack for the sharks. My playing partner for about six months was a monster. So much so that if I ever got a shot except the rare one after a break, I assumed it was his signal that he wanted me to take over for awhile. Six months in that meat grinder and my game had risen to where there were many nights when I never missed a shot on the eight foot tables that were my meat and gravy.

Hu



cuetechasaurus said:
I'm so used to playing weaker players for cheap sets, or for the table time. Usually I give up alot of weight, and I bear down as hard as I can so it kind of keeps me in stroke.

Recently, I've been playing people that play better than me even. We either play 9ball for $5-10 per game, or 1pocket, usually $10 agame. Usually, if all I have on me is like $40 of $50, I'll play a strong player and blow it all just for the practice. The last week or so I've been feeling pretty good, because I've been holding my own against them.

I broke even playing 1hole against one of the best players in the room. He was bearing down and playing decent, but not his full speed. Even so, he should have beaten me easy. I was thinking clearly and executing well enough for us to go back and forth, and finally he quit after four hours when we were even. I also played some 9ball with a player who plays just below the pro level at $5 a game. After two hours I was happy to only be stuck two games. He also wasn't playing his full speed, but he was running out alot, and so was I if the layout was decent.

Today I was feeling pretty confident with my game, and I played another strong player. He plays about two-three balls better than me. He's a strong shortstop. I happened to catch him on a day when he was in dead punch. The first three games I won, I was playing well. He scratched on the break and I ran out. I broke and hooked him, then ran out again. Similar thing on the third rack, hooked him on the three and he kicked and sold out, and I got out. Next thing I know, he starts firing back at me. I got careless and missed and easy shot, and left him a tough long distance cut down the rail. He speared it in and ran out, making it look easy. To make a long story short, the guy just couldn't miss anything. He played dead perfect lock up safeties, played real high percentage pool like the pros do.

All of a sudden, I can't make a ball to save my life. Once he started firing back at me, I broke down. I was scared to even let him see part of the ball if I played safe. When he's in dead punch nobody in the room can beat him. Nevertheless, with $60 in my pocket, which was all I had, (with like $20 in my bank account lol) I kept playing him at 5$ per game even. When he just kept getting better and better, my stroke got worse and worse. After I was stuck eight games I finally quit, and the time cost me the rest of my money.

The point of this post is that for the last few months, I've gotten too comfortable playing people that can't run out on a regular basis. Even when I give up alot of weight, if I leave them tough, I still expect to get back to the table most of the time. This has kind of hurt the mental side of my game. Playing someone like the guy I played today was kind of a wake up call, that to play top notch pool, you really can't make a mistake. When that registered in my mind, I broke down and couldn't do anything right.

I'm going to continue playing these tough players with no spot, and I need to get my mental game back to where it was when I was playing in big tournaments on a regular basis. I don't care if I lose my last few dollars, it's about time I paid my dues to learn this game. I'm not playing any weaker players anymore, no matter how much weight I give up. I need to keep playing someone that will run out, and maybe run a few more racks if I miss. I consider it cheap lessons, and I am proud to say that I don't get nitty when I play a very strong player cheap, like five or ten a game. Even if they are drilling me, I'll keep playing until I'm broke and won't ask for weight (unless of course if we are gonna play for alot of money, but I can't afford that right now).

Thoughts or comments would be appreciated.
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make them give up something

You need to make them give up something. Matching up well is just as important ,if not more, than shooting well!! If they don't want to give you a fair game then move on. At least you will still have your money in your pocket! Your ability to learn everything that improves your game will make you a better player. Not donating to someone who you feel like you are second best to! Losing doesn't make you a winner , winning does!! You will get better and better with time and practice. Figure out for now how you can win.
 
I've always found that when playing better players your mistakes are accentuated and with each error there is a cost. When playing a better player, I try to keep within my comfort zone ($$$) but learing in life comes quicker when mistakes come with a cost. From the time we burned our hand on a hot stove to the time we learned we should of just parked the rock instead of drawing back or going forward a little. You will learn much faster and will find the better players will eventually not want to play cheap because your improving. I hate to lose, and losing makes me play better faster. Mistakes are our teachers in life. If you commit 100% and error you learn, commit 99% and that 1% will torture you for life. Hope this thinking helps, Mr. Saurus
 
I've learned this lesson.

Around here there are many players who will stop playing you if they lose a few games. There are only a few players who will keep playing even though they are losing every game. Needless to say, these are the best players in the area.

Sometimes a very good player will walk in and play everyone. Then after a short time, no one will play that player anymore.

I'm the opposite. I sit and watch and refuse to play the weaker players (because they won't play me anymore if I show them I can run more than 3 balls). Then a very good player walks in and my boredom turns into excitement! But I wait. I wait and let the weaker players play the very good player - wait until no one wants to play him anymore (about 30 minutes). Then I play him.

And I will play and play and play. Just me and him. Many times I will lose and lose and lose. But sometimes I win a few. I went two hours once playing one guy and I lost every single game. It was the best lesson I could get.

I learned I can't afford to miss one shot. I *must* either make my shot or play a good safety. If I mess up just once, he will run out or leave me without a shot.

So this makes me a better player. The more I do this, the better I get. Then I get to where I can sometimes win the majority of games when playing one of these players.

There is a "down side" to this though. If you become a good player, then you get to where many players will no longer play you just for fun. So might be a good thing to be a not so good player! (If you are just playing for fun.)
 
kevin s said:
You need to make them give up something. Matching up well is just as important ,if not more, than shooting well!! If they don't want to give you a fair game then move on. At least you will still have your money in your pocket! Your ability to learn everything that improves your game will make you a better player. Not donating to someone who you feel like you are second best to! Losing doesn't make you a winner , winning does!! You will get better and better with time and practice. Figure out for now how you can win.
Click to expand...

I absolutely, categorically disagree with this. If you can play a stronger player cheap and get him to show speed then that is what you need to get stronger. Getting weight will NEVER make you a stronger player, NEVER.

Getting weight IS what makes you feel like the weaker player. UNLESS you are a stone cold hustler that is getting the seven when you should be giving it.

If you intend on making a living playing pool THEN you need to learn how to match up in your favor. If you intend on getting better and stronger then you need to fire at better players and pay attention to how they are beating you and absorb it. Players who constantly try to match up for low dollars always stay scared that they didn't make the right game.

I played one of the best players in the city the other night. On a super tight table. I was having all sorts of trouble getting out on that table. After watching him run a few racks though I adjusted to his pace and speed on the table and started running racks as well. Although I didn't win I guarantee you the next time we play it will be a different story.

If you want to get better you need to get in the box with better players and do what they do. Inch by inch you will learn and use those techniques and they will become yours.
 
As the saying goes, "I might give you what you want but I will never give you what you need."

Play cheap, play even, play hard, pay attention.

I played Buddy Hall one pocket for $10 a game. How much do you think I learned losing that $100?
 
But John, you are an accomplished player and experienced gambler. Of what use is your advice to someone further down the food chain -- who is learning and less experienced and has a limited backroll -- and who just ends up regularly getting his wings pulled off by better players?

Somewhere in this post you say you have to learn to "match up in your favor" and I think that means that sometimes you have to get weight. Perhaps the answer is: don't always try and get the nuts. Maybe slightly the worst of it is OK. But you can't just put your head on the chopping block every time you walk into the pool room. They call those guys: fish and they are dealt with accordingly... on the chopping block.

Lou Figueroa


John Barton said:
I absolutely, categorically disagree with this. If you can play a stronger player cheap and get him to show speed then that is what you need to get stronger. Getting weight will NEVER make you a stronger player, NEVER.

Getting weight IS what makes you feel like the weaker player. UNLESS you are a stone cold hustler that is getting the seven when you should be giving it.

If you intend on making a living playing pool THEN you need to learn how to match up in your favor. If you intend on getting better and stronger then you need to fire at better players and pay attention to how they are beating you and absorb it. Players who constantly try to match up for low dollars always stay scared that they didn't make the right game.

I played one of the best players in the city the other night. On a super tight table. I was having all sorts of trouble getting out on that table. After watching him run a few racks though I adjusted to his pace and speed on the table and started running racks as well. Although I didn't win I guarantee you the next time we play it will be a different story.

If you want to get better you need to get in the box with better players and do what they do. Inch by inch you will learn and use those techniques and they will become yours.
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I agree with the original poster as long as you control the bet. There is no better practice then to play someone that you know is supposed to beat you. If you can play someone who is better then you and you can control the bet so that you do not get hurt then it will help your game. It isn't something that I would do every day, but I like to match up bad at least once a week as long as it is cheap just for the 'lessons' and sometimes you can outrun the nuts and even win and that is a HUGE confidence boost when playing others.
 
My first thought is: Doesn't all the negatives you feel apply to you playing weaker players, also apply to the stronger players playing you. Isn't it going to hurt their game? Oh well, maybe they don't care much as long as you keep donating your cash to them.
Chris
www.cuesmith.com
www.internationalcuemakers.com
 
playing a good player like that, you have fewer shots and you pay more. Its good for training your psyche. Playing with lesser players, one can be more creative in shot making. Creativity makes one a better player. Theres more room for error but the lesser player affords that opportunity.
To an extent against a better player, you can both go into the zone together. Lucks a factor but life can be a ***** if they really are above your league.
I can't see anything wrong with playing anybody.
:cool:
imo... Though if you want to learn to handle pressure, go ahead...
 
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John Barton said:
I absolutely, categorically disagree with this. If you can play a stronger player cheap and get him to show speed then that is what you need to get stronger. Getting weight will NEVER make you a stronger player, NEVER.

Getting weight IS what makes you feel like the weaker player. UNLESS you are a stone cold hustler that is getting the seven when you should be giving it.

If you intend on making a living playing pool THEN you need to learn how to match up in your favor. If you intend on getting better and stronger then you need to fire at better players and pay attention to how they are beating you and absorb it. Players who constantly try to match up for low dollars always stay scared that they didn't make the right game.

I played one of the best players in the city the other night. On a super tight table. I was having all sorts of trouble getting out on that table. After watching him run a few racks though I adjusted to his pace and speed on the table and started running racks as well. Although I didn't win I guarantee you the next time we play it will be a different story.

If you want to get better you need to get in the box with better players and do what they do. Inch by inch you will learn and use those techniques and they will become yours.
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Its hard to play anything when you only have 60 dollars in your pocket!!! I have donated to better players in the name of practice as much as the next guy. But now they will not play unless I give up some weight! It is all about the money ,thats my experience!! Maybe yours is different. When you lost a hundred to Buddy Hall how much money did you have left? The original poster said after the loss and pool time he was broke!! You can learn nothing like that....except how to lose, IMO!!!
 
kevin s said:
Its hard to play anything when you only have 60 dollars in your pocket!!! I have donated to better players in the name of practice as much as the next guy. But now they will not play unless I give up some weight! It is all about the money ,thats my experience!! Maybe yours is different. When you lost a hundred to Buddy Hall how much money did you have left? The original poster said after the loss and pool time he was broke!! You can learn nothing like that....except how to lose, IMO!!!
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That's horse crap..

If it's all about the money, you will at some time reach a point where you give up the game because you are not making money.

I have always played the game simply to beat people, and I have always wanted to beat progressively stronger people. I have no problem practicing for 5 hours at a time, and for 10+ hours per day. Money is not the motivator. A gnawing desire to be a great player is what motivates me.

Let me be frank. If you are practicing in order to be able to beat player X playing for money, then you should quit the game. When he has you down 3 games in a race, you are thinking of the money.

I have a huge advantage playing someone like that. I practice in order to play the shot perfectly every time. So it does not matter whether I am playing Joe Barbanger for free in my local honkytonk, or whether I am playing Efren for $100 a set. I give my all to every shot, because I want A. To beat the guy I am playing and B. To play the game perfectly.

I've seen hundreds of players in pool halls that are looking to "match up" utilizing spots. Very few of them will ever amount to being any kind of player. The great players I have been around... Well, let's just say I have never seen any of them accepting a spot.. From ANYbody. That is very telling.

I know occasionally, there are acceptions, like Cory Deuel taking a spot from Efren.. The thing is, the superpros know almost EXACTLY where they are in the pecking order.

I've beat a lot of people I wasn't supposed to. If I had taken a spot, it wouldn't mean anything. Gimmee another year of solid practice time (with no job) and I'll know where I am in the pecking order.

Russ
 
Russ Chewning said:
That's horse crap..

If it's all about the money, you will at some time reach a point where you give up the game because you are not making money.

I have always played the game simply to beat people, and I have always wanted to beat progressively stronger people. I have no problem practicing for 5 hours at a time, and for 10+ hours per day. Money is not the motivator. A gnawing desire to be a great player is what motivates me.

Let me be frank. If you are practicing in order to be able to beat player X playing for money, then you should quit the game. When he has you down 3 games in a race, you are thinking of the money.

I have a huge advantage playing someone like that. I practice in order to play the shot perfectly every time. So it does not matter whether I am playing Joe Barbanger for free in my local honkytonk, or whether I am playing Efren for $100 a set. I give my all to every shot, because I want A. To beat the guy I am playing and B. To play the game perfectly.

I've seen hundreds of players in pool halls that are looking to "match up" utilizing spots. Very few of them will ever amount to being any kind of player. The great players I have been around... Well, let's just say I have never seen any of them accepting a spot.. From ANYbody. That is very telling.

I know occasionally, there are acceptions, like Cory Deuel taking a spot from Efren.. The thing is, the superpros know almost EXACTLY where they are in the pecking order.

I've beat a lot of people I wasn't supposed to. If I had taken a spot, it wouldn't mean anything. Gimmee another year of solid practice time (with no job) and I'll know where I am in the pecking order.

Russ
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I think either I didnt express myself the right way or you misunderstood my point. Most better players , unless the are friends, are not interested in playing or practicing for fun. I want a fair chance whenever I match up for money is all. There comes a day , in my experience, that once you surpass the better player they are done playing !! I play pool because I love to play pool!! I too want to play the best game I can. Money is not my motivation its only a bonus! I think it is great if you have extra money and can afford to find out where you stand.Don't go broke all the time trying to play the best player around was my point!
 
Lou, that's why I said play cheap. I would never advocate that someone go up against a much better for signifgant dough without making a game. And I understand that "signifigant" is relative. Bit as I said, if a player's intent is to get better then playing even and cheap against good players is one way to go. If the intent is to "make money" even at $5 a game then matching up is the way to go.

Players who don't challenge themselves while at the bottom of the food chain - stay there.
 
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