Why music players are banned in most tourneys?

[justadub]

While I understand what Sean, ChefJeff and 3andstop are all talking about (and I agree, in the larger sense) I believe that railing against the use of headphones isn't truly appropriate.

If the person wearing the headohones isnt paying attention to the match, perhaps that person could be deemed to be rude and uncaring of his opponent. But if the wearer is actively engaged in the match, I do not see why we have to assume he is contributing to the downfall of society.

I am quite confident that I could wear headphones and not miss a thing in my match. I pay attention now, why wouldn't I then? As for needing to wave or motion toward me, you might have to do that now, in some of the places I play. The music is that loud, and I am losing my hearing as it is.

I don't wear headphones specifically because I don't want to become used to playing with them and then not be able to in a different tournament. But I can see how shutting out the distractions could help me.

It is up to the wearer to pay attention. If he does so, it should be no big deal. And no affront to society.

 

[chefjeff]

Your example has nothing to do with headphones or the phones themselves... (snip)

...don't blame a device.

Which is it you're complaining about, a device or people? Your post contradicts itself, it seems.

Btw, I'm not blaming a device (or you). I'm stating that manners are necessary for civil living. Manners come from simple respect for other Persons. The "how" changes with technology and society; the principle doesn't.

If pool is to grow, driving out civil folks from the halls won't help. Just like Gresham's law where bad money drives out good money, bad behavior drives out good Persons from entering the pool halls. It's all tied together.

Jeff Livingston

 

[Cdryden]

I don't get bent out of shape about it either, although it does frustrate me on a much larger level than a stupid set of headphones.

It's the general decay of our societies moral fiber. Its the fact that what was once common courtesy is now nonexistent and as exemplified by these very posts, not even understood as such.

Not only this topic but a hundred other examples of this exist today. Any one of them seem insignificant on their own merit, but as a whole they are shameful and frustrating to see.

Its everything from the pants hanging off your ass, to pulling up to a neighbors house in your car blaring music and parking the wrong way on the street and beeping your horn to call your friend out.

Its everything from not granting way in a shopping mall for a mother and her children to pass your path as you both walk in different directions by each other and not give it even inkling of thought, to loud swearing conversations in front of parents with their children in public places.

Its everything from slowing your walking pace in a crosswalk as you stop traffic while you walk across the street, to yapping on the cell phone while you drive and cut off another driver as you indifferently drive along.

Its everything from giving a 10 year old an iPhone account, to an 8 O'clock bedtime for young kids, rather than irresponsibly allowing them to stay up till 10 or 11 watching garbage sex or violence filled television shows.

I can certainly go on and on, but ironically there is no point to doing so since these lost courtesies are multiple generations past now and most don't even know what the hell I'm talking about.

Its the frustration of thinking what the continued degradation of our society will look like in the next 20 years.

They don't get it cause they can't get it. It's no longer there to be gotten.

Its not just the headphones.

Excellent post.

 

[3andstop]

The wearing of headphones and a pool match are a coincidental pair. It could be the wearing of headphones in a hundred other public environments.

Its the core sense that you are doing something (for lack of a better word, selfish, introverted, indifferent to your surroundings, nose upish, rude.)

I can't explain it well, and for those who don't simply understand the feeling, it is because it has been lost through the generations and can no longer be experienced as improper. It no longer exists.

When some form of courtesy once was in our society, and now no longer exists in it, it has degraded.

You can't know its wrong anymore than you can know Sky Kings daughter.

 

[B.Carson]

B.Carson:

Thank you for receiving my previous post well -- on the good terms that it was meant. To help elaborate on what chefjeff and 3andstop were getting at, if you don't mind, I'll take the opportunity to reply to your reply to cheffjeff.

I have to agree with both 3andstop and cheffjeff. *Something* happened along the way where certain "obvious" courtesies are no longer considered obvious by a subsequent generation.

You say not to blame the device, and I heartily agree. However, these folks aren't blaming the device. They are blaming the people using them at the most inappropriate time. The blame is on the *people*, not the device. And as 3andstop mentions, it goes far deeper than "just a set of earbuds." It is the cranium that those earbuds are installed on.

Let's take a different example, to see if I can help better explain the point. Dress codes in certain establishments -- whether that establishment be a pool hall, restaurant, club, what-have-you. You may *say* that the dress code is extreme, that the person "having to put on" that particular formal means of clothing doesn't normally do so in everyday life. "A dirtbag wearing a tuxedo is still a dirtbag, so why even bother with enforcing a dress code upon him?" That's the point you're trying to get across in this earbud business -- that you want to wear your earbuds, and this overrides any perceived courtesy issues, so why the big deal? "My wants are my wants, and screw what everyone else thinks."

This is the larger issue the aforementioned folks were getting at. That *something* has decayed or got lost from one generation to the next. And it's just not that a certain generation has to be "taught" what courtesy is, but that it's not *obvious* it's a courtesy that is the core issue. Pretty soon, holding doors open for people will, in time, drop off the radar, and a certain generation won't realize it to be "obvious" that it's courteous to hold the door open for someone.

Does that help explain it?

-Sean

P.S.: network security, eh? CISSP / SANS GIAC / CCIE + Security (written) here.

Some very good points you have there. As you can probably gather from my previous posts in this thread that I do not put using headphones in the same category as holding a door open or proper clothing. Those are things that were passed on to me when I was very young. I have been playing pool for 23 years or so and I just started using headphones occasionally just recently. I have seen others use them and never thought or heard it was rude or in bad form until this thread.

 

[B.Carson]

While I understand what Sean, ChefJeff and 3andstop are all talking about (and I agree, in the larger sense) I believe that railing against the use of headphones isn't truly appropriate.

If the person wearing the headohones isnt paying attention to the match, perhaps that person could be deemed to be rude and uncaring of his opponent. But if the wearer is actively engaged in the match, I do not see why we have to assume he is contributing to the downfall of society.

I am quite confident that I could wear headphones and not miss a thing in my match. I pay attention now, why wouldn't I then? As for needing to wave or motion toward me, you might have to do that now, in some of the places I play. The music is that loud, and I am losing my hearing as it is.

I don't wear headphones specifically because I don't want to become used to playing with them and then not be able to in a different tournament. But I can see how shutting out the distractions could help me.

It is up to the wearer to pay attention. If he does so, it should be no big deal. And no affront to society.

I agree and it's nice to know I'm not alone :grin:

 

[B.Carson]

Which is it you're complaining about, a device or people? Your post contradicts itself, it seems.

Btw, I'm not blaming a device (or you). I'm stating that manners are necessary for civil living. Manners come from simple respect for other Persons. The "how" changes with technology and society; the principle doesn't.

If pool is to grow, driving out civil folks from the halls won't help. Just like Gresham's law where bad money drives out good money, bad behavior drives out good Persons from entering the pool halls. It's all tied together.

Jeff Livingston

Hmm I didn't realize I was the one complaining in this discussion. I was commenting on your complaint against your teammates being disinterested in your match.

 

[justadub]

The wearing of headphones and a pool match are a coincidental pair. It could be the wearing of headphones in a hundred other public environments.

Its the core sense that you are doing something (for lack of a better word, selfish, introverted, indifferent to your surroundings, nose upish, rude.)

I can't explain it well, and for those who don't simply understand the feeling, it is because it has been lost through the generations and can no longer be experienced as improper. It no longer exists.

When some form of courtesy once was in our society, and now no longer exists in it, it has degraded.

You can't know its wrong anymore than you can know Sky Kings daughter.

Before I further debate the point, understand that I agree with you in the larger sense regarding courtesy, and the lack thereof. I truly do. This forum highlights it daily, sigh.

Back to the point. Are you suggesting that wearing headphones any time in any setting shows a lack of courtesy? This suggests a generational disconnect, moreso than simply the courtesy issue.

Headphones (earbuds, more specifically) didn't exist a few short generations ago. Small compact music players most certainly didn't. It is my belief that if they were in existence when those from those generations were younger, they would be viewed differently.

Did you think poorly of the man listening to the radio broadcast of a ball game with his transistor radio and an earplug, while sitting in the stands at the very same ball game? That's been going on for many generations....was he being rude and showing a lack of common courtesy? I'm sure we could come up with many more examples.

Again, if todays headphones wearers aren't paying attention to their surroundings, and reacting accordingly, it is being rude. But not everyone acts like that. Judge those being rude accordingly....

Again, I agree that common courtesy isn't so common any more, and it does get worse with every generation. But let's not confuse generational differences with these issues, tho in some instances they can be related. Cell phones.... Again, were they in existence 50 years ago, wouldn't thus be a different discussion?

 

[sfleinen]

Before I further debate the point, understand that I agree with you in the larger sense regarding courtesy, and the lack thereof. I truly do. This forum highlights it daily, sigh.

Back to the point. Are you suggesting that wearing headphones any time in any setting shows a lack of courtesy? This suggests a generational disconnect, moreso than simply the courtesy issue.

Headphones (earbuds, more specifically) didn't exist a few short generations ago. Small compact music players most certainly didn't. It is my belief that if they were in existence when those from those generations were younger, they would be viewed differently.

Did you think poorly of the man listening to the radio broadcast of a ball game with his transistor radio and an earplug, while sitting in the stands at the very same ball game? That's been going on for many generations....was he being rude and showing a lack of common courtesy? I'm sure we could come up with many more examples.

Again, if todays headphones wearers aren't paying attention to their surroundings, and reacting accordingly, it is being rude. But not everyone acts like that. Judge those being rude accordingly....

Again, I agree that common courtesy isn't so common any more, and it does get worse with every generation. But let's not confuse generational differences with these issues, tho in some instances they can be related. Cell phones.... Again, were they in existence 50 years ago, wouldn't thus be a different discussion?

Bruce:

I know you get it with the decay of courtesy and values. But I think you're confusing the "introduction of new technology" as some sort of scapegoat for the proper time and place to use said technology.

Let's use your man and his transistor radio and earbud as an example. Your depiction of him using that setup at a ball park isn't the same thing as a more intimate scenario, where he's participating with an opponent. In a ball park, he's just a spectator, just like everyone else. And he won't even get noticed by the other fans, because he's quiet and going about his business. But let's go back in time when that kind of technology was new. Do you think -- for even a second -- that that man thought he had a right, or even "just didn't know it wasn't courteous" to don it while, say, in a chess match with an opponent? Or, say, at the dinner table in a restaurant? Point is, the "age" or the technology doesn't matter. Just because some new technology is "introduced" doesn't mean that <poof!> some new loophole for social and ethical values just magically appeared.

Back in the old days, the user of that transistor radio and earbud still had to conform to generally known, accepted, and obvious social values. Back then, although not quite on the accelerating par as of today, you still had technology being introduced, but at least people had the social skills, values, morals, and "ethical know-how" to know when it was a proper environment to use it. It was "obvious."

That is not the case today. In fact, now, it's an excuse to use it, even in what would -- in more modern socially-skilled times -- be considered a no-no environment.

When did this rapid decay happen? That might be an impossible question to answer. But I can tell you this: when the common scene of a "typical social environment" has shifted from a picture of people mingling, talking and socializing with each other face to face, making eye contact always; to a picture of people with earbuds in, heads down, thumbing away at cell phone keyboards, bumping into each other, ignorantly letting doors slam into the faces of women with strollers trying to get through that door; you know a rapid transition -- a decay -- has taken place. That is where we're at.

-Sean

 

[BasementDweller]

I'm really surprised there are so many people that defend the use of headphones.

For those of you that think it is perfectly acceptable can you think of a scenario where it wouldn't be?

How about while out golfing with some friends?

Or how about golfing in a local tournament?

Back to pool:

How about when you are out with your significant other and you are shooting a few racks? Would you extend this person the courtesy of you complete attention?

How about you are shooting some pool with the owner of the establishment? Does he get your full attention?

Hmmm.

Is it only when the match has something of value on the line? So when you are playing in a tournament, a league, or a money match do the rules of common courtesy go out the window? If that is the case it’s a bit puzzling to me.

I know some of you are defending their use by saying that you are simply listening to music you enjoy. To that I say - perceptions matter and what you are telling your opponent is that they really aren't deserving of your full attention. How that can be considered anything other than rude and disrespectful I will never understand.

 

[justadub]

Sean, we agree, for the bulk of the discussion.

I still believe that people can (and do) use technology in a respectful manner, including earbuds. I still believe that I, and many people that I play with, are attentive to the match they are playing, regardless of the plugs in their ears. Again, I don't use them, but I have a fee friends who do upon occasion. With no issue.

I also understand that there a great many people who act like you describe, and that most certainly is rude and inconsiderate.

I just don't think that it has to be automatically considered poor form and inconsiderate. It is how the wearer behaves that dictates the level of common courtesy being exhibited

(Still holds doors and takes his hat off when going indoors. I try to step outside or at least off to the side to take phone calls, too.)

 

[B.Carson]

I'm really surprised there are so many people that defend the use of headphones.

For those of you that think it is perfectly acceptable can you think of a scenario where it wouldn't be?

How about while out golfing with some friends?

Or how about golfing in a local tournament?

Back to pool:

How about when you are out with your significant other and you are shooting a few racks? Would you extend this person the courtesy of you complete attention?

How about you are shooting some pool with the owner of the establishment? Does he get your full attention?

Hmmm.

Is it only when the match has something of value on the line? So when you are playing in a tournament, a league, or a money match do the rules of common courtesy go out the window? If that is the case it’s a bit puzzling to me.

I know some of you are defending their use by saying that you are simply listening to music you enjoy. To that I say - perceptions matter and what you are telling your opponent is that they really aren't deserving of your full attention. How that can be considered anything other than rude and disrespectful I will never understand.

Most of the situations you posted it is expected that there be interaction. In a competitive situation how much interaction do you want? I like to keep it to what is required and no more DURING the match. I will gladly tell you why I shot top left on the 7 after the game but not while I'm shooting the 8. How do headphones change this in any way? Why does it matter what I'm doing as long as I give the game my full attention and not interrupting you. Yes I can do that and have headphones on.

In your golf tournament example if I plug in my headphones while I'm striking the ball does this impact our interaction in any way? Are you going to talk to me on my backswing? After I hit the ball we can then discuss why I hit it into the woods it you want :grin:

 

[9_Ball_King]

Come on man......

Does anyone know why music headphones are banned in most tourneys? I mean, I think they may limit the size of the headphones, but why they ban them completely? I have a lot more concentration when I listen to the music I like and it helps me to focus more.

When permitted I always wear my iPod when playing in tournaments. It's not because I am being 'rude' or 'inconsiderate' to my opponent....it's simply so I don't have to listen to any of the following: arguments on other tables, music I don't care for on the jukebox, obnoxious mutterings of drunks at the bar, and most annoying is the opponent who is seated and talking to one of his buddies and pretending he doesn't want you to hear such comments as "he can't get out from here" or "do you believe that crap" or "what a lucky shot" or "he's gonna dog it"......but they really do want you to hear those comments when you're at the table. This is the main reason I like to wear my iPod.

And also even though I'm wearing my iPod, I believe I am very courteous to my opponent during the match. I am always making eye contact, always aware of who is and who isn't on 2 fouls, always aware of ANYTHING and EVERYTHING my opponent says TO ME, always very sensitive of any potential conflict that could arise such as frozen balls, bad hits, push shots, etc.

Calling me disrespectful of the game or my opponent because I wear an iPod CONSIDERATELY AT ALL TIMES is hogwash. Wearing an iPod when I go on a walk with my wife is disrespectful, listening to my iPod in the car when I am driving with someone is disrespectful, listening to my iPod when taking my daughter and the dog for a walk is disrespectful, listening to my iPod in church is disrespectful. So of course I would not even think of listening to my iPod while doing any of these activities. Duh!

So I respectfully disagree vehemently with all of you that say I am being disrespectful and inconsiderate of "the game" or "others" when I choose to wear my iPod when competing in a pool tournament. You have the problem not me.

That being said, I abide by the rules and do NOT wear an iPod if that particular tournament expressly states "no headphones". No big deal, I'll just get out the even more deafening ear plugs I used to wear when I worked in the steel mill. These permit me to hear even LESS of all the peripheral noise than my iPod.....but they are legal. Sure I enjoy my music more but I get the same result--> no peripheral audio garbage. Unfortunately I have so many weird thoughts going through my head already when I'm trying to perform that I simply don't need any more in there.

Oh, and before I forget, that gibberish about coaching while a player is using an iPod/headphones, yeah I'm sure that has probably happened about maybe six times since civilization began....maybe less.

So please try to be a little understanding and realize that some of us have a personal preference and like to responsibly wear earbuds when we play and in no way do we mean this as a sign of anything. It does not make us bad or inconsiderate or disrespectul human beings....it just makes us pool players using iPods.

 

[lstevedus]

The only time I wear my earbuds is when I'm playing pool because it is when I am exposed to the rudest behavior. A short true story: I was at the Derby City Classic 2 years ago sitting in the bleachers at the tv table. A nice older couple, standing next to me, was having a conversation with one of the people involved in the tournament. I over heard the lady say, "This is the meanest group of people I've ever been around." I wear my earbuds to tune out the people she was talking about and be able to focus on playing pool. If I am being rude by wearing earbuds so be it, because it doesn't even compare with some of the rude behavior I've had to put up with while playing pool. This also has a lot to do with the negetive image pool, and pool players have.

 

[TheNewSharkster]

I think people are being overly sensitive about the headphones. Don't we have bigger things to worry about? If I am playing in a tournament I don't usually strike a conversation with my opponent anyways because that might be considered sharking.

Now if I am kicking it with my friends on a friday night over some beers I would be offended if they started using headphones.

 

[chevybob20]

Hmm I didn't realize I was the one complaining in this discussion. I was commenting on your complaint against your teammates being disinterested in your match.

You're not the one complaining, others are. It seems the world has become a bunch of individual little snowflakes that get their panties in a twist if you don't do things exactly the way they want and then give them attention exactly the way they want.

News flash, "The Pool Halls are gone". We have to play in sports bars with pool tables. Furthermore, when I can call a foul for distracting jabber and take ball in hand every time my opponent talks to me when I'm at the table then I'll stop wearing my ear buds.

By the way, I can hear everything going on. I just act like I can't. It's amazing how quiet my opponents get when they think I can't hear them.

 

[chevybob20]

I'm really surprised there are so many people that defend the use of headphones.

For those of you that think it is perfectly acceptable can you think of a scenario where it wouldn't be?

How about while out golfing with some friends?

Or how about golfing in a local tournament?

Back to pool:

How about when you are out with your significant other and you are shooting a few racks? Would you extend this person the courtesy of you complete attention?

How about you are shooting some pool with the owner of the establishment? Does he get your full attention?

Hmmm.

Is it only when the match has something of value on the line? So when you are playing in a tournament, a league, or a money match do the rules of common courtesy go out the window? If that is the case it’s a bit puzzling to me.

I know some of you are defending their use by saying that you are simply listening to music you enjoy. To that I say - perceptions matter and what you are telling your opponent is that they really aren't deserving of your full attention. How that can be considered anything other than rude and disrespectful I will never understand.

Are you saying you want to chit chat with your opponent while in a tournament? Do you think you're getting more attention from me without my earbuds in? What is it about the ear buds that makes you think that I'm not giving the pool match my full undivided attention?

This kind of reminds me of the IPT challenge match between Johnny Archer and Earl. Johnny had to stop in his match a say "When I'm at the table, you STFU". Maybe Johnny should get an Ipod to help fade the BS.

 

[Banks]

Just imagine if people that actually had something serious on the line had to fade distractions..



Now that I know Ipod(etc) wearers are easily distracted.. :grin-devilish:

 

[CreeDo]

I go by the golden rule. It doesn't bother me if they want to use headphones. So why should I force them not to?

If it does bother someone, they have to ask themselves honestly why that should be.

Deep down I think some people are just butthurt that the other guy has zero interest in them or what they're doing. When they're shooting, they want him to be watch. When they're stuck in the chair, they want the other guy to still somehow notice them, or defer to them, or be friends with them, or keep them entertained.

None of which has anything to do with "I had to throw chalk at him to get his attention so I could tell him he's on two!!!!" ...as if 99% of the games aren't played in relative silence with nobody needing to remind anyone of anything.

 

[donny mills]

Does anyone know why music headphones are banned in most tourneys? I mean, I think they may limit the size of the headphones, but why they ban them completely? I have a lot more concentration when I listen to the music I like and it helps me to focus more.

Well for one mis communication between players. Or how about if your music is on too loud your opponent can hear it, especially if it's really quiet in the tournament room. That is soo soo annoying when that happens.