Why Not Bash the IPT? Just Don't Be Malicious.

sjm, great post and summed at my views perfectly. There are several on here that have simply refused to discuss the IPT in a constructive manner since day 1. The ironic thing is that to the IPTs credit they have made many improvements that have mirrored suggestions made on this board, by many of the people that were slammed for speaking up.

It always amused, yet confused me why the IPT or anyone or any tour sure be out of bounds on a free discussion forum on the internet! :rolleyes:
 
TheOne said:
sjm, great post and summed at my views perfectly. There are several on here that have simply refused to discuss the IPT in a constructive manner since day 1. The ironic thing is that to the IPTs credit they have made many improvements that have mirrored suggestions made on this board, by many of the people that were slammed for speaking up.

It always amused, yet confused me why the IPT or anyone or any tour sure be out of bounds on a free discussion forum on the internet! :rolleyes:
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Nothing is "out of bounds" as a topic for discussion, except perhaps my speculations on who might like to liase with whom :-)...

And you are right about a lot of the suggestions being adopted. LIke I said way back when - we are a FREE focus group for Kevin and Co.

Where it gets silly and where I believe a lot of the slamming of IPT critics has occurred is when the criticism contains a lot of anti-Kevin rhetoric. Basically, whenever a post tends toward a "IPT is evil because Kevin Trudeau is evil" type of slant then things go awry with the personalities involved.

We all know KT's past. Hell he put it out there. Perhaps the smartest move given that it's not hard to find. Just as with anyone else we deal with though we can only go on what we are dealing with now. Many, it seems would like to pounce on every thing they can to further discredit Kevin Trudeau more than he already is by his own past.

Let's just deal with the facts as we know them and discuss the what if's without bringing each of our moral compasses into it.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone....(wonder who said that)

:-)
 
John Collins axed:
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone....(wonder who said that)


Ah, Goliath to David ?

Doug
 
<<There will be no Chicago tournament. As of this moment, it doesn't exist.

The IPT must pay the players first, otherwise no one will show up for Chicago.>>

You just made what was written as a statement of fact (your first sentence) and then speculated about players showing up (or not) in Chicago.

Let me just assume that you and KT are not close personal friends and only those people (and KT) know for a fact, whether there will or will not be a Chicago event...and possibly even THEY don't KNOW as of today.

As for players "knowing" what is going on and agreeing not to speak out, I know FOR A FACT that is not true. I know several players personally and none of them have any more clue than the members of this forum about what is going on behind the scenes.

Obviously, the IMPRESSION is that the IPT is in financial difficulty since one would assume that if it had the money, it would pay it out. But financial difficulties TODAY might be cured by raising funds from any number of sources...or a sale actually taking place with the new ownership making good on all (hopefully) or at least some of the balances due.

I don't know Efren but my guess is, he would be glad to accept a 50% payout and would play in the Chicago event.

Hey, pool is nothing but a gamble for everyone involved right down to the $10.00 races to five in local saloons every Saturday night. Maybe the two players who automatically qualified at a couple of last weekend's events for their $2,00.00 entry fees are the smart ones.

The 2007 card MIGHT be worth $100,000.00 and every smart Texas Hold 'Em player on the planet would bet 2 grand to make a hundred grand all day long.

And to also respond to WATCHEZ in this same post, I think it is unfortunate that KT and Deno are mentioned in the same breath. Deno DOES NOT own the IPT. He is a paid employee and is doing what he is being told to do just like everyone else who has a job on the line.

Whatever information he is giving out is what he is being TOLD. It is NOT HIS responsibility to cover the checks nor is he able to administer polygraph tests to KT or anyone else.

In addition, say what you will about KT but the IPT event in Vegas, which I attended, was just about THE best run major pro tournament I have ever attended and I think the VAST majority of players would agree with that and therefore, Deno as the TD is due a huge amount of praise for that.

I certainly do not KNOW what is going on and can only speculate along with the rest of you but one thing is obvious to anyone who knows anything about "show business" in general and sports promotion in particular (and I know quite a bit) and that is that KT has not made a DIME on the IPT and has quite probably lost a LARGE sum of money to date.

I am not supporting KT or his company and have only met him casually on one occasion but the IPT is no "scam." Scammers MAKE money...they don't LOSE money. If the IPT fails...which I hope for the player's sake does not happen...then so be it and TOO BAD for the sport and the pros. But businesses fail every day and that does not make them scams.

Bottom line, from the tournaments which have already taken place and PAID out on, a VERY large sum of money has been earned by A LOT of pros that they otherwise would not have earned.

The IPT may "crash and burn" and in quite spectacular fashion (although for the player's sakes I hope not) but there can be no doubt that KT and the rest of his associates WANTED it to work and tried VERY hard to make it work and KT will LOSE a great deal of money...not MAKE a great deal of money if the IPT folds.

Finally, just so no one concludes that I am "justifying" or "supporting" or "making excuses" for KT or anyone else, as some world champion pro friends of mine know, I never thought the IPT business model had a chance from the beginning. I never thought that there was enough public support or sponsorship money or TV ad money or back end video sales potential to come anywhere near offsetting the production, venue and prize money budget.

But the IPT took a SHOT...a HUGE SHOT at breathing a massive amount of life into a sport where only a handful of championship players can make a living and for that, the IPT deserves a lot of credit, in my opinion.
Regards,
Jim
 
The Players aren't bashing the IPT AT THIS POINT IN TIME because they don't want to Bite the Hand that feeds them. I guarantee you most of the players are seething with frustration and anger in private. But publically they want to be seen to be a team player.

However if things do end up going pear shaped and the tour folds, you will see the players come out of the woodwork.
 
onepocketchump said:
Perhaps the IPT players are not bashing the IPT because they have faith in the vision. It takes a LOT of faith to not take the shortsighted view. I wouldn't doubt that all the IPT players have been communicated with on some level about the payment issue.

In truth, it's really an issue for them and their backers and the IPT. It's not our problem. It's not. We are just bystanders. We don't care one bit whether the skateboarders get paid for an X-Games event. We just take it in and are entertained.

This whole speculation game we are playing is primarily for our own entertainment as I see it so far. Like I said before, if we want to truly influence professional pool we should start our own public company and run it.

John
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The whole "speculation game" as you call it, has been for our own entertainment, or I should say for me anyway. I do truly wish the players the best and hope the IPT can find a way to stay afloat.

If we were to start our own public company and run it, where would you start? You have mentioned this before and nobody seemed to bite on it. So, I'm curious.
 
ironman said:
The whole "speculation game" as you call it, has been for our own entertainment, or I should say for me anyway. I do truly wish the players the best and hope the IPT can find a way to stay afloat.

If we were to start our own public company and run it, where would you start? You have mentioned this before and nobody seemed to bite on it. So, I'm curious.
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I guess I'd want to create a company and have some sort of initial public offering for the initial shares. I am not totally sure how that all works but I know there are various ways to structure it and various types of shares.

I'd also try and be aggressive about soliciting some kind of agreement from the leagues to support the venture through a portion of their weekly dues. Now this idea, while it would bring a definite and steady revenue into the Pro Tour, would be akin to getting Bush to admit he was wrong about anything. The idea is that the amateurs would supoprt the pros and provide a base and a path to the pro ranks. I would try to somehow standardize the game or at least knit it together through the leagues.

I would also see if the leagues would be interested in jointly creating a similar system to Europe/Taiwan for developing players. This would run in conjunction with their established systems and be competition for competition's sake.

If the entire industry and the pool public got involved I don't see why we can't start an organization with truly qualified people at the helm.

As SJM has pointed out - there is a lot of experience and talent right here on this board. I even know a CPA :-)

Seriously though, I believe it could happen. I don't know if there is a way to get enough people to invest their money and time. I don't even know if it's worth it really. When there is so much injustice in the world it seems kind of frivolous to have a professional pool tour. But, if there were one that were modeled after the PGA then it should be either a public company, a non-profit, or a membership organization.

I really believe the pros should take matters into their own hands and step up to make it happen. They have golden arms with the ability to entertain with things most humans can't do. If they acted with solidarity then they coud be on TV - any channel. But they don't and they are treated like trained monkeys. The pros are told where to play, how to play, now how to dress, how to act, when to be quiet and so on. And this went on before the IPT. Except for the randomness of the outcome in pro tournaments and events they aren't much more than Circus Performers going from town to town with the same show every night.

Sadly.

So again. Take the 150 top money earners from the IPT right now. Tell them to go out and earn as much as they can playing pool, doing exhibitions, whatever they can. Have them all agree to put 25% of those earnings into the new organization at the share value of $1 per share and issue as many shares as the money that is put in. Now each member owns as much as they put in. With that seed money start the new tour. Maybe it will take a few years but with that start they will be able to have tournaments that pay grandly with fortune 500 sponsors and TV and internet-on demand and so on. The pros should OWN their content.

In my opinion this is the ONLY way to make it really work. But, what do I know about it? Nothing really. In today's crazy world of endless distraction who can keep anyone's attention long enough to get anything done.

John
 
onepocketchump said:
I guess I'd want to create a company and have some sort of initial public offering for the initial shares. I am not totally sure how that all works but I know there are various ways to structure it and various types of shares.

I'd also try and be aggressive about soliciting some kind of agreement from the leagues to support the venture through a portion of their weekly dues. Now this idea, while it would bring a definite and steady revenue into the Pro Tour, would be akin to getting Bush to admit he was wrong about anything. The idea is that the amateurs would supoprt the pros and provide a base and a path to the pro ranks. I would try to somehow standardize the game or at least knit it together through the leagues.

I would also see if the leagues would be interested in jointly creating a similar system to Europe/Taiwan for developing players. This would run in conjunction with their established systems and be competition for competition's sake.

If the entire industry and the pool public got involved I don't see why we can't start an organization with truly qualified people at the helm.

As SJM has pointed out - there is a lot of experience and talent right here on this board. I even know a CPA :-)

Seriously though, I believe it could happen. I don't know if there is a way to get enough people to invest their money and time. I don't even know if it's worth it really. When there is so much injustice in the world it seems kind of frivolous to have a professional pool tour. But, if there were one that were modeled after the PGA then it should be either a public company, a non-profit, or a membership organization.

I really believe the pros should take matters into their own hands and step up to make it happen. They have golden arms with the ability to entertain with things most humans can't do. If they acted with solidarity then they coud be on TV - any channel. But they don't and they are treated like trained monkeys. The pros are told where to play, how to play, now how to dress, how to act, when to be quiet and so on. And this went on before the IPT. Except for the randomness of the outcome in pro tournaments and events they aren't much more than Circus Performers going from town to town with the same show every night.

Sadly.

So again. Take the 150 top money earners from the IPT right now. Tell them to go out and earn as much as they can playing pool, doing exhibitions, whatever they can. Have them all agree to put 25% of those earnings into the new organization at the share value of $1 per share and issue as many shares as the money that is put in. Now each member owns as much as they put in. With that seed money start the new tour. Maybe it will take a few years but with that start they will be able to have tournaments that pay grandly with fortune 500 sponsors and TV and internet-on demand and so on. The pros should OWN their content.

In my opinion this is the ONLY way to make it really work. But, what do I know about it? Nothing really. In today's crazy world of endless distraction who can keep anyone's attention long enough to get anything done.

John
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Well, I asked for it and you delivered.

It is an intresting idea and one that would take a LOT of work. Work though, ain't that hard, implemeting the idea is the hard part.
 
John, good ideas, but creating an IPO is an arduous process and I am pretty sure you have to show some value before you can create one. ;)

FTR, IPT members as a group have not been told to be quiet; we have reacted relative to what is owed us, our financial situations, and our individual temperaments.

BTW, I just checked directly with the Rosemont...the Chicago convention center is still booked from November 23 - December 6, 2006, while the actual dates of the tournament are November 26 - December 3, 2006.
 
As Linda says, the has been no instruction from the IPT to players regarding discussing anything on forums.

It's just common sense not to speculate about or bash one's business partner / employer in public. The place for discussion for matters such as this one is between the parties involved, at least up to a point when that breaks down or the public interest becomes paramount.

Anyway, I'm sure the IPT supporters and followers here will be informed very soon after the IPT players find out more.

Colin
 
Well I didn't mean that you were specifically instructed to "be quiet". That would be truly bad PR if such instructions were ever to be leaked.

You all pretty much know how you are expected to "act" regarding the IPT. I think Kevin called it "professionalism". We'll see if he treats you as well as you have treated him by jumping through his hoops on command.

The partnership is rather one-sided at this point.

John
 
onepocketchump said:
Well I didn't mean that you were specifically instructed to "be quiet". That would be truly bad PR if such instructions were ever to be leaked.

You all pretty much know how you are expected to "act" regarding the IPT. I think Kevin called it "professionalism". We'll see if he treats you as well as you have treated him by jumping through his hoops on command.

The partnership is rather one-sided at this point.

John
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Sure it has been (a one-sided partnership), but they have much to gain if they are right and very little to lose if they are wrong... Makes a lot of sense to me to not bash the IPT from their perspective.
 
Holy thread resurrection!
 

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Weird because I was watching an old IPT match last night on youtube. Still very enjoyable to watch by the way. I think they were on to some good ideas here and there (8ball with slow cloth), but it wasn't meant to be. I'd still take it 6 days a week and twice on Sunday over BB.
 
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