why pool fails
- Thread starter BigDaddyInc.
- Start date
I think the no.1 problem for pool (as several posters have already pointed out) is that the production for TV does not interest enough viewers.
I recently heard about an insight from a TV production expert. He said when they do focus groups on new shows, the ones that turn out the best are not the ones where 90% of the people say they liked it, it's the ones where 10% say that they absolutely loved it...even though 50% of the focus group just didn't get it or thought it was crap.
There is just not enough pool produced for TV that has any wow factor. The Mosconi Cup has pumped out a few high energy match-ups and the success of the Mosconi Cup is what has pumped enthusiasm into the game in Asia and Europe, but it still could be significantly better.
I recall a Mosconi Cup lead in segment (mini-show) where the European players were acting as a team of secret Special Agents, who'd discovered the US team's undercover entrance into the country. It was an hilarious juxtaposition and really added some interest into the character to the players, as they tried, some more successfully than others, to act like special agents. (Davis and Ortmann were pretty good....Chamat looked like he was about to burst into laughter the whole time).
So pool needs some production that is a little out of the box. Obviously the stock standard match coverage formula isn't working. At least not until audiences care about the players playing.
eg. How many people would watch a local golf event on TV? Even if they were shooting as good as the pros, people wouldn't care because they don't watch it to see the shots, they watch hoping Tiger can pull back 3 shots on the back 9 or to see if Michelson can hold on for his first major victory. They care about the players and their experiences so they can experience life vicariously through them.
Colin
I recently heard about an insight from a TV production expert. He said when they do focus groups on new shows, the ones that turn out the best are not the ones where 90% of the people say they liked it, it's the ones where 10% say that they absolutely loved it...even though 50% of the focus group just didn't get it or thought it was crap.
There is just not enough pool produced for TV that has any wow factor. The Mosconi Cup has pumped out a few high energy match-ups and the success of the Mosconi Cup is what has pumped enthusiasm into the game in Asia and Europe, but it still could be significantly better.
I recall a Mosconi Cup lead in segment (mini-show) where the European players were acting as a team of secret Special Agents, who'd discovered the US team's undercover entrance into the country. It was an hilarious juxtaposition and really added some interest into the character to the players, as they tried, some more successfully than others, to act like special agents. (Davis and Ortmann were pretty good....Chamat looked like he was about to burst into laughter the whole time).
So pool needs some production that is a little out of the box. Obviously the stock standard match coverage formula isn't working. At least not until audiences care about the players playing.
eg. How many people would watch a local golf event on TV? Even if they were shooting as good as the pros, people wouldn't care because they don't watch it to see the shots, they watch hoping Tiger can pull back 3 shots on the back 9 or to see if Michelson can hold on for his first major victory. They care about the players and their experiences so they can experience life vicariously through them.
Colin
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Purdman
Banned
My .02
Pool wins every time somebody picks up a cue and plays! It wins everytime some kid hears the balls clicking together and go plop into the pocket and is facinated by it! Pool is a winner, the players might be another story! I heard about a wealthy man who lost all his money. An old friend of his asked him how it felt to be poor. The guy replied, poor, I ain't poor, I'm just broke! Poor is a state of mind!
Purdman
Pool wins every time somebody picks up a cue and plays! It wins everytime some kid hears the balls clicking together and go plop into the pocket and is facinated by it! Pool is a winner, the players might be another story! I heard about a wealthy man who lost all his money. An old friend of his asked him how it felt to be poor. The guy replied, poor, I ain't poor, I'm just broke! Poor is a state of mind!
Purdman
In my opinion, one of the biggest problems with pool is its history. Pool simply isn't definitive. I mean, who is the current champion? Who was last year's champion? How is the champion decided? Who has been champion most?
How can you have a David & Goliath match-up when you haven't defined who is to fill each roll?
Think about it just for a moment. People LOVE watching battles. They love it when there's a lot at stake. Baseball is a perfect example of this. We just saw the Mets get eliminated last night in a sudden-death game that was tied going into the ninth. Did anyone stop to wonder how much either team would make for winning the NLCS? I don't think so.
As we close the chapter on the UPA and possibly the IPT, we have to ask ourselves, is it the new idea we need or is it commitment to ONE idea for a long time? In my opinion, we need a tour. We need ONE tour. We need ONE TOUR that will stick around long enough to have some history to it. There need to be champions, repeat champions, favorites and underdogs. There need to be records. The longest winning streak/losing streak. The least number of games lost while winning a tournament. The highest winning percentage for a tournament.
There needs to be interest in more than just pool. It can't just be about 'how he got out' or 'how she drew the ball'. That gets a little boring after a while.
When Cal Ripkin broke Lou Gehrig's record, the whole world stopped to watch and think about it, all he was doing was showing up 2,131 times in a row! Pete Rose got more hits than anybody and he's still talked about. Derek Jeter may have the most World Championships among active players but it's Barry Bonds that will be talked about for generations.
So you want my opinion? My take? Pool needs to get its ducks in a row and keep them in a row! It needs to take statistics on EVERYTHING it could imagine and allow the public to decide on what they find interesting. Who knows? Someone might break and make a ball 40 times in a row! Someone could have the highest 9-on-the-break percentage in history! Someone could be on the worst losing streak ever! Oh wait, that can't happen because pool has no record of it. It has ZERO history.
How can you have a David & Goliath match-up when you haven't defined who is to fill each roll?
Think about it just for a moment. People LOVE watching battles. They love it when there's a lot at stake. Baseball is a perfect example of this. We just saw the Mets get eliminated last night in a sudden-death game that was tied going into the ninth. Did anyone stop to wonder how much either team would make for winning the NLCS? I don't think so.
As we close the chapter on the UPA and possibly the IPT, we have to ask ourselves, is it the new idea we need or is it commitment to ONE idea for a long time? In my opinion, we need a tour. We need ONE tour. We need ONE TOUR that will stick around long enough to have some history to it. There need to be champions, repeat champions, favorites and underdogs. There need to be records. The longest winning streak/losing streak. The least number of games lost while winning a tournament. The highest winning percentage for a tournament.
There needs to be interest in more than just pool. It can't just be about 'how he got out' or 'how she drew the ball'. That gets a little boring after a while.
When Cal Ripkin broke Lou Gehrig's record, the whole world stopped to watch and think about it, all he was doing was showing up 2,131 times in a row! Pete Rose got more hits than anybody and he's still talked about. Derek Jeter may have the most World Championships among active players but it's Barry Bonds that will be talked about for generations.
So you want my opinion? My take? Pool needs to get its ducks in a row and keep them in a row! It needs to take statistics on EVERYTHING it could imagine and allow the public to decide on what they find interesting. Who knows? Someone might break and make a ball 40 times in a row! Someone could have the highest 9-on-the-break percentage in history! Someone could be on the worst losing streak ever! Oh wait, that can't happen because pool has no record of it. It has ZERO history.
Where's Fats when you need him.
Pool needs a new mouthpiece.
Ask the common man (not a "pool player") to name a pool pro.
Who will they name?
Mosconi?
Archer?
Varner?
Nope
They're probably gonna say Minnesota Fats.
You may not have liked him, but you couldn't ignore him.
It's gotta have someone to dance for the masses.
Stick it in their face. MAKE them put results on ESPN and the local sports news. Don't just advertise tournaments on pool websites and in pool halls.
Put them everywhere that will let you. Scream pool at the people who don't play it. Don't just stick it on TV an HOPE somebody watches.
Don't just market to pool players. Guess what promoters. WE ALREADY WATCH IT!!!!!!!!!
And if you think "cleaning up the image" will do it, you're wrong. John Q. Public needs to be woofed at.
Ask the common man (not a "pool player") to name a pool pro.
Who will they name?
Mosconi?
Archer?
Varner?
Nope
They're probably gonna say Minnesota Fats.
You may not have liked him, but you couldn't ignore him.
It's gotta have someone to dance for the masses.
Stick it in their face. MAKE them put results on ESPN and the local sports news. Don't just advertise tournaments on pool websites and in pool halls.
Put them everywhere that will let you. Scream pool at the people who don't play it. Don't just stick it on TV an HOPE somebody watches.
Don't just market to pool players. Guess what promoters. WE ALREADY WATCH IT!!!!!!!!!
And if you think "cleaning up the image" will do it, you're wrong. John Q. Public needs to be woofed at.
why not try a live tournament, like the U.S open? show more than just the finals, have 3 or 4 cameras on different tables. people should get to see the nobodies play the top players. everyone on this site knows there's more to a tournament than the final 3 or 4 matches and repeated and repeated. golf has 3 hours of live coverage, granted tiger might take up 2 and half hours of it, but you still get to see other players. so i vote for a live tournament, even if it's 2 hours, advertise it alittle, build it up and i don't think it would be as boring as watching the same 2 players.
Successful Shows
In todays world the successful shows are the American Idols, Dancing with the Stars, Chopper Shows etc. The best part of the Idols is the try outs. Watching all those people giving it their best and sucking. Or watching Orange County choppers arguing, or talking about what they are doing, and came in late. Every day people , with every day lives. Nothing staged or acted, which lets people relate to their own lives.
This makes it possible for the average person to wonder, "I can do that".
In todays world the successful shows are the American Idols, Dancing with the Stars, Chopper Shows etc. The best part of the Idols is the try outs. Watching all those people giving it their best and sucking. Or watching Orange County choppers arguing, or talking about what they are doing, and came in late. Every day people , with every day lives. Nothing staged or acted, which lets people relate to their own lives.
This makes it possible for the average person to wonder, "I can do that".
Two things about this thread I think is being missed. Pool is not failing. Obviously by a long shot. It has been stated many times that Pool is selected every year as the #1 recreational pastime that to me is not a failure. That is a huge success. During the 60's when Minnesota Fats had his show, at the peak of pool popularity after the Hustler, do you know what the name of it was? "Celebrity Pool with Minnesota Fats"! Not "Minnesota Fats plays pool with an introvert that has a serious case of lackuvous personalitous". Even when Fats was riding the wave of Hustler popularity people were not interested in pro events. Back in the day when Mosconi and Greenleaf were superstars as professional pool players there was no television. Pool was a local spectator sport that could be promoted and coordinated very easily and quickly. Now with all the other forms of entertainment in the world pool as a spectator sport is about as interesting to the common man as evaporating water. But pool as a participation sport, as a whole I believe, is doing quite well.
We are all a rare breed. We are the inbetweens. We are so interested in pool that we enjoy watching it. Although we play pool recreationally we are good enough that we are interested in the pro's. As a comparison I would venture to say that we probably make up less than 5 percent of the true billiard community. Most use pool as a night out, date, thing to do with friends. I am sure that most of us enjoy bowling but would flip the channel if it was on tv. Why? Cuz we don't really feel as though our bowling game would improve if we watch and really wouldn't care if it did.
I see many references to pokers popularity as compared to pool. That has got to be the worst comparison I've seen. For several reasons pool popularity as a spectator sport cannot be compared to poker.. First off the "Final 2 million dollar match" that you are watching started 11 months ago. Not only with the $25 dollar online qualifiers but with the cruise ship and casino qualifiers. only 25 percent of those qualifiers go to the winner, the rest trickles up to the next round. And the next round, and the next round. Until you have ammassed a huge amount of money for the final match. The closest thing that Pool does like this is the APA and BCA Leagues. Which primarily is played more for the social attraction than the trip to vegas. Secondly if I throw a royal flush into someones hand they will win the pot 100 percent of the time. If I throw a balabushka in their hand with a 3 ball runout I would say your average player wouldn't have a 10 percent chance of running all 3 balls. Your average person understands that everyone has a chance to win at poker and if you get a bad hand now... Throw in and wait for the next one. Not true with pool.
As I said before I think pool is doing just fine. There is enough videos on Accustat to keep me happy if I need to go watch a match. And if I want more I go check out a few webcams that are free on the internet.
JV
We are all a rare breed. We are the inbetweens. We are so interested in pool that we enjoy watching it. Although we play pool recreationally we are good enough that we are interested in the pro's. As a comparison I would venture to say that we probably make up less than 5 percent of the true billiard community. Most use pool as a night out, date, thing to do with friends. I am sure that most of us enjoy bowling but would flip the channel if it was on tv. Why? Cuz we don't really feel as though our bowling game would improve if we watch and really wouldn't care if it did.
I see many references to pokers popularity as compared to pool. That has got to be the worst comparison I've seen. For several reasons pool popularity as a spectator sport cannot be compared to poker.. First off the "Final 2 million dollar match" that you are watching started 11 months ago. Not only with the $25 dollar online qualifiers but with the cruise ship and casino qualifiers. only 25 percent of those qualifiers go to the winner, the rest trickles up to the next round. And the next round, and the next round. Until you have ammassed a huge amount of money for the final match. The closest thing that Pool does like this is the APA and BCA Leagues. Which primarily is played more for the social attraction than the trip to vegas. Secondly if I throw a royal flush into someones hand they will win the pot 100 percent of the time. If I throw a balabushka in their hand with a 3 ball runout I would say your average player wouldn't have a 10 percent chance of running all 3 balls. Your average person understands that everyone has a chance to win at poker and if you get a bad hand now... Throw in and wait for the next one. Not true with pool.
As I said before I think pool is doing just fine. There is enough videos on Accustat to keep me happy if I need to go watch a match. And if I want more I go check out a few webcams that are free on the internet.
JV
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Johnny "V" said:
I think you mean, your average "sucker"
Anyone thinking they can just sit down at a table with people who know how to properly play the game is ACHING to lose their money.
Statistics? Gee when the Gremlin was pushing just for scores from the tournaments everyone jumped all over him.
Now you all must be admitting that he really was on to something. It took a couple of years but at least now most of the time they are posting the scores on the brackets.
Maybe one day the players will all belong to one organization and they will keep a running average of their games won/lost. I would think that would determine who the real champion was. The one with the best w/L average.
I doubt I will see it in my lifetime. The IPT might have done it.
Jake
Now you all must be admitting that he really was on to something. It took a couple of years but at least now most of the time they are posting the scores on the brackets.
Maybe one day the players will all belong to one organization and they will keep a running average of their games won/lost. I would think that would determine who the real champion was. The one with the best w/L average.
I doubt I will see it in my lifetime. The IPT might have done it.
Jake
Without a amateur youth level (middle school & high school), a semi amateur (college and working people) and a semi-pro and a pro level you have no structure no feeder system and zero organization. You can't just pick the fruit and not tend to the full spectrum of needs of a sport and expect it to grow any further than a table in a basement of a new home. As for the TV issues, you need to take a close look @ Matchroom Sports productions and what snooker has done successfully. By doing this you would not be recreating the butcher block ESPN programming which has production quality of lumber jack competitions. ESPN has been pretty much a parasite of billiard programming (and allot of other competitions) giving a pittance compared to what they reap with programming advertising. I don't watch pool on TV because it has SAMO..SAMO written all over it.
Here we go again ...
There is not 1 problem why Pool is not popular, there are several. People attack these problems in an isolated way, which does not have lasting effects.
First, for Pool, to make from being a game into the 'Sport' category, it has to be organized and have structure, with graduating levels into the highest level of being a Professional, that makes a living in the sport.
Hardcore Pool people are similiar to Archery Fanatics in many respoects, except Pool is a little more mainstream since it is done more for entertainment than archery is.
Pool has to be available to kids, pure and simple. Junior leagues, junior tournaments, with Pool being offered as a sport in Junior High through High School. School teams competing, collegiate teams competing, being in the Olympics. These things will help change the opinions of many people concerning Pool, and the standards for Play will rise, as will the conduct of the players, and the intensity of the competition.
Also, I think that the 'Semi-Pro' level needs to be much more definitive, with events for them while not allowing Pros to bottom feed on these events, but to allow a lower level to compete a level above. You don't see a Royals player popping in to play with the Wranglers here in a tournament, do you?
There is 'Hustling' that goes on in every single sport, and sometimes it is brought out into the open, but I do not believe it should be the main focus of the sport, and Pool is more that way, in peoples minds, than being regarded a true sport. Leave it in the backroom, or dark corners, provide some interesting stories about it, but don't make it the main focus, because that would be self-defeating of your main goal to lift Pool up.
International competition helps raise the level of interest and competition.
Look at the transformation that Soccer has undergone in the USA. I played playground unorganized Soccer as a kid. My kids played organized school Soccer and AYSO Soccer going to training camps put on by the Wichita Wing players. I coached AYSO Soccer. My ex-wife and I were avid Wings fans for 7 years, never missing games. I played organized Indoor Soccer for many years myself. (hence, my propensity to wear Long sleeved T's with shorts a lot when I play Pool, a leftover from Soccer days).
Poker is popular right now because there are no real defining physical skills required for it. The ones that really have no chance in a game are slow to realize that fact (carrot on a string), and they always can get lucky, right? or get the cards, right? It would be like my chances against Efren? I could get lucky? right. He might make a mistake, right? He might not run the last 5 balls, right? I have started seeing the enthusiasm for Poker start to disipate locally, and soon this will move upward.
Then you have the whole matter of individual nion-related tours out there with each promoter working for their own interests. That is too lengthy a discussion, but it all goes back to the lack of a good infrastructure for Pool, just at the intermediate levels. It is also reflected by different Pool organizations not working together in a cooperative way to provide structure within the sport.
I asked in another thread, why is their no Pool clothing produced that has caricatures or likenesses of the Pros on them along with organization name on it, even the IPT? Or Classic Old Pros like Mosconi, Crane, Lassiter, Greenleaf. I mean, you could do just a sample run on something like this just to see the demand for it.
And, there has to be a viable governing body over the sport that communicates with lower levels, provides guidance, offers goals.
And, yes it is true, you have to be able to market the sport in the right way to attract attention, but it is much easier to attract people to it if they grew up with it in some way. (Baseball, Football, McDonalds, Pizza Hut).
Then maybe, people will stop thinking it is something to do other than minature golf, or cheaper than golf. (which is funny, because when I was a kid, you could play Golf all day long for $5).
There is not 1 problem why Pool is not popular, there are several. People attack these problems in an isolated way, which does not have lasting effects.
First, for Pool, to make from being a game into the 'Sport' category, it has to be organized and have structure, with graduating levels into the highest level of being a Professional, that makes a living in the sport.
Hardcore Pool people are similiar to Archery Fanatics in many respoects, except Pool is a little more mainstream since it is done more for entertainment than archery is.
Pool has to be available to kids, pure and simple. Junior leagues, junior tournaments, with Pool being offered as a sport in Junior High through High School. School teams competing, collegiate teams competing, being in the Olympics. These things will help change the opinions of many people concerning Pool, and the standards for Play will rise, as will the conduct of the players, and the intensity of the competition.
Also, I think that the 'Semi-Pro' level needs to be much more definitive, with events for them while not allowing Pros to bottom feed on these events, but to allow a lower level to compete a level above. You don't see a Royals player popping in to play with the Wranglers here in a tournament, do you?
There is 'Hustling' that goes on in every single sport, and sometimes it is brought out into the open, but I do not believe it should be the main focus of the sport, and Pool is more that way, in peoples minds, than being regarded a true sport. Leave it in the backroom, or dark corners, provide some interesting stories about it, but don't make it the main focus, because that would be self-defeating of your main goal to lift Pool up.
International competition helps raise the level of interest and competition.
Look at the transformation that Soccer has undergone in the USA. I played playground unorganized Soccer as a kid. My kids played organized school Soccer and AYSO Soccer going to training camps put on by the Wichita Wing players. I coached AYSO Soccer. My ex-wife and I were avid Wings fans for 7 years, never missing games. I played organized Indoor Soccer for many years myself. (hence, my propensity to wear Long sleeved T's with shorts a lot when I play Pool, a leftover from Soccer days).
Poker is popular right now because there are no real defining physical skills required for it. The ones that really have no chance in a game are slow to realize that fact (carrot on a string), and they always can get lucky, right? or get the cards, right? It would be like my chances against Efren? I could get lucky? right. He might make a mistake, right? He might not run the last 5 balls, right? I have started seeing the enthusiasm for Poker start to disipate locally, and soon this will move upward.
Then you have the whole matter of individual nion-related tours out there with each promoter working for their own interests. That is too lengthy a discussion, but it all goes back to the lack of a good infrastructure for Pool, just at the intermediate levels. It is also reflected by different Pool organizations not working together in a cooperative way to provide structure within the sport.
I asked in another thread, why is their no Pool clothing produced that has caricatures or likenesses of the Pros on them along with organization name on it, even the IPT? Or Classic Old Pros like Mosconi, Crane, Lassiter, Greenleaf. I mean, you could do just a sample run on something like this just to see the demand for it.
And, there has to be a viable governing body over the sport that communicates with lower levels, provides guidance, offers goals.
And, yes it is true, you have to be able to market the sport in the right way to attract attention, but it is much easier to attract people to it if they grew up with it in some way. (Baseball, Football, McDonalds, Pizza Hut).
Then maybe, people will stop thinking it is something to do other than minature golf, or cheaper than golf. (which is funny, because when I was a kid, you could play Golf all day long for $5).
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pool that is failing has in excess of 400,000 weekly league members playing including all the league operations just in the u. s. aloneHIRUN526 said:
pool that is failing has 500,000 or more watching pool on tv every week just in the u.s. appx could be confirmed with espn polls
pool that will fail would be due to the negatism from amateur players sitting around with nothing more to do than find something/anything to post to have something to do. negatism from untruths is bad publicity
for any sport--i wonder if i go to the golf or bowling forums i find this type of negatism. i doubt it.
i was once told "if you have nothing good to say, why say anything?
would that not be a breath of fresh air? we could become the ambassodors of promoting pool instead of the naysayers of pool on az.
i agree that the publicity regarding the ipt is not good, but why beat it to death? i do not see any of the people that he actually owes money to on here beating it up? they are the ones that have a right to complain, this reminds me of a small town with maslicious gossips trying to see who can get in the best post.
we should set an example, not be the example, does anyone not agree with that? if so you might be in the wrong forum.
ljmoss
yes jimbo i like your insights i just hate the fact these players can't get half the credit they deserve this game requires so much skill and nerves. Now i know not all of them make it on their own most usually have backers or whatever and im starting to think you hit the nail on the head when you said most people would rather play the game than to watch it. I mean it's just an absolute pleasure to me to play pool i can play it competitevly or just practice by myself and both ways it's just wonderful maybe thats where the appreciation has to come from. It's kind of a tough game to make exciting to watch except for the occasional jump shot or impossable kick. but im gonna say that if the general public knew how tough it is to do what the pros do that i think they would get into the game a little more. I tried to improve on the paragraph thing.
yes hirun "very cerebral" i like that it's so true it seems you have to be doing it to appreciate it. You are right on in this statement. So people watch the heck out of football and really go crazy rooting for a team. And usually if that team wins they might brag for a week or if their team losses the fan of the other team might give them heck for a week. Is it all about bragging rights? Me personally im gonna root for the poolplayer that might not eat for a week unless he wins! Now thats pressure.
yes purdman pool is a world champion it is a winner i have no doughts about that. I just can't figure out why it can't get what it deserves. The players i mean if they don't win it affects them unlike a football player with a contract he gets paid win or lose. These dang poolplayers deserve better im not just talkin about the major pros either im talkin about the uknowns to these players need to be rewarded for their knowledge and skill. I don't care any great poolplayer is a genius in his or her own right. And sum1 on here said they don't deserve millions but micheal jordan does because he can run fast and jump high? Lets see MJ pocket the case nine ball from the end rail for the rent money time after time put a little pressure on him make him earn it. Then maybe he'll get my respect. Now i only used mj as a reference i feel this way about most b-ballers foosebal players, thats right bobby fooseball is the devil!
ljmoss i am not trying to bring on a negative front here. My main grip is that these players arent getting what they deserve not even close. And will there ever be a remedy for that i want to see this game get the credit it deserves! Im sick of it period personally. You got guys runnin up and down a dang b-ball court getting millions! Runnin up and down a football field getting millions! runnin around a baseball field getting millions! So what they can run fast who gives a shi#! Can they negotiate a rack of nine ball when the score is 6-6 goin to 7 for for their freakin livelyhood!! Don't get me started on "professional sports"!
JimBo said:
Great post!!!!