Why Pool is devastated by the new Smoking Laws.

[Grilled Cheese]

Thanks wiggly.



In short, smoking is a sinking ship. Pool rooms need to get off that sinking ship before it's too late. Stick with dinosaurs and pool rooms will also go extinct. Simple as that.


In everything, there's always a tipping point. I think that tipping point has already passed, and pool missed it. But it's not too late yet. Dump the smokers and move on while they still have a chance.


It's kind of offensive to read all this talk about smoking vs. non-smoking from the perspective of a non-smoker. As if we're some crappy, cheap customers or something. I've observed pool rooms myself. I think we non-smokers spend more. We eat more and drink just as much. On average, the non-smoker has more disposable income to spend in the pool room. Have you seen the prices of a carton of cigarettes lately? A lot of lower income people who have a fixed amount to spend on the weekend in a pool room who are not smokers, have more to spend. Whereas, RJ Reynolds and the US government is taking away a good chuck of what the smoker was going to spend in your place.


Which brings us to another angle. I specifically remember some people who quit pool in favor of smoking. Not because of smoking bans, but because of the cost of smoking. These were people working $10/hr jobs at retailers and home improvement stores. They had enough before, but with cigarettes more than doubling in price in my area due to the heavy taxes put on them, that significantly cut down their disposable income at the end of the week. These were paycheck to paycheck people, Come the weekend, whatever extra they had, they'd blow it in the pool room drinking. Well, they can no longer afford enough drinks to get hammered and smoke. They're gone. With league fee, with driving out there, smokes, and then drinks...they couldn't do it all.


There isn't a smoker that I know that isn't feeling the effects of the high prices of cigarettes. Some are cutting back. Others ration them. They don't advertise it out loud to all their friends, but it's obvious instead of having 5 drinks that night, they are down to 1-2.


And this is the demographic pool room owners are clinging to and crying about?



Sounds like a road map to chapter 11.

 

[Paul Schofield]

"Does anyone ever count the number of people LOST because of pool rooms being smoking? There are a lot of people who refuse to go to pool rooms because of the smoking."

the owner of my favorite room tried to tell me & lydia that the smoking ban had cut his business when we met him on our first trip there. i've no doubt that In The Short Term, he's right; he knows his numbers. but i pointed out to him that we wouldn't be there if there was a cigarette lit in the place, and he stopped and thought about it; he's no dummy, and he could see that we'd just run up a nice bill on food & drink and hours of time on a GC2 and the 3-cushion table, while the smokers were standing out front talking.

GrilledCheese has got it right. there is no way my girlfriend and i would go to the poolroom if there was smoking.

No Way.

if pool wants to dig itself out of the hole it's in, relying on a dying (literally) demographic is one sure way Not to do it.

The ban is in its 8th year in Massachussets. When did he complain to you about the effects of the ban? Have you asked him recently if the business he has lost has been replaced by all the business that has avoided the poolrooms all those years prior to 2005?

I am still waiting to hear from or talk to a room owner who has seen an increase as a result of the smoking ban. How about a NY room owner. The ban is in its 10th year there. Surely, there must be one.

 

[franko]

I agree

It is unfortunate that I did not meet a marketing genius like as you when I was still a Senior Vice President and Chief Operating Officer of a Fortune 500 company and about to retire and open a pool room. It is truly amazing the depth of your insight of the absurd failure of room owners. Your understanding of their lack of acumen is astonishing. I would however recommend that if you do not have a spell check to invest in one. With multiple misspellings and lack of proper punctuation and grammar it would give someone the impression that you lack the basic ingredients to be taken seriously.

Bob

I agree it is unfortunate you did not me, be4 ( oh no did I mispell that? ) you failed.Maybe you would not be dripping with sarcasm today.

 

[ignomirello]

smoking smells

I don't know how the smoking ban started in other states but in New York it did hurt the pool rooms because of the way it was done. Smoking was still allowed in bars at that time, so it hurt pool rooms with liquor licenses. People who liked to stop in for a drink just went to a bar instead. Those people never came back, even when ban kicked in for the bars. It might not have been as bad if the ban were across the board, all at once. Maybe people would have stayed put.

The other people who basically left pool rooms when the ban kicked in were the mooches who just hung around and didn't spend any money anyway, other than an occasional cup of coffee.

I don't know of any players who left or went less often or spent less money due to the ban.

Fran, I think you hit the nail on the head.
If they would have slowly moved it in somehow
Maybe some poolhalls would have survived.
Maybe something like one day a week, then after 3 months 2 days a week.
Who knows if that would have even worked.
But at least the owners would have seen it coming.

Smoking wasn't the entire reason, but I would say about 75-85%

Good luck to all present owners!

 

[kybill9]

How did Obama create the "recession, depression" in 2007-2008 if he didn't take office until 2009? In 2007-2008 there was another guy in office, name of George Bush. But congratulations - you do get my vote for most ignorant post of all time.

I meant to post 2000-2008. Thanks for your kind remarks. If you follow the thread you will see I posted another reply

 

[risky biz]

I will explain further how this is a demographics issue. In some respects, a poolroom’s viability comes down to momentary decisions.

Imagine a middle aged man who is in the 3rd twenty percentile in the demographics scale. He has got a decision to make about what he is going to do with his day. He is versatile and likes to do many things. He can go hit some pool balls. He can go golfing. He can go out on his boat. He can take his lady out to a nice restaurant. He is probably not a smoker. Pool loses in this scenario over and over. He can afford do other stuff that he has decided is more fun. Pool does not get this guy and probably never will.

Imagine a very young man who may be in his 2nd year in college, working on the side in a fast food restaurant. He is in the 5th twenty percentile of the demographics scale. He likes to shoot pool. He likes his X-box. He likes playing on his phone and fooling around on facebook. He likes to have a few beers with his buddies. He probably smokes. He does not have the same recreational options as the man described above because he does not have the resources. His choices are very different and in this scenario, pool wins over and over.

This is why the pool room clientele is heavily weighted with the lowest demographic. Then here comes the smoking ban. That changes the options for the young man. If he goes to the pool room, he can’t smoke. If he plays X-box, he can smoke. If he hangs out with his buddies in an apartment or in a back yard and has a beer, he can smoke. If he goes for a ride in the car with his girl, he can smoke. Now pool loses.

I already posted above data produced by your own industry that indicates everything you say is wrong but you stubbornly refuse to absorb it or even acknowledge that it exists. Good luck with your pool room and it's mostly ridiculous dress code.

I have not noticed in the three to four pool rooms I play in even one person who is a fast food employee. I am in Las Vegas which has been hit very hard by the economic slowdown and in even the best of times had a split demographic with a heavy weighting toward large numbers of lower paid service employees.

 

[risky biz]

This will be controlled by the local Democratic/want to control everything/liberal jerk governments who want to control every facet of our lives.

There have already been localized areas in the country that want to ban outdoor smoking in city streets/parks etc. just like you said.

Bottom line: you will only have to worry about this if you live in as a$$hole area of the country and you should be thinking about getting the hell out of there. Simple as that! A no brainer.

Unfortunately for your analysis the only time movement to what you apparently consider the non-"a$$hole" areas of the country is when a recession hits and they move BACK to your favored areas where the cost of living is cheaper because fewer people want to live there. But keep telling yourself it's paradise if it makes you feel better.

 

[Paul Schofield]

"Does anyone ever count the number of people LOST because of pool rooms being smoking? There are a lot of people who refuse to go to pool rooms because of the smoking."

The answer is less than zero. I will do the math for you. 2 non-smokers gained minus 8 smokers lost = -6 customers.

 

[risky biz]

The answer is less than zero. I will do the math for you. 2 non-smokers gained minus 8 smokers lost = -6 customers.

You have "Former Pool Room Owner" written all over you.

 

[The Chinchilla]

I think this is one of those cases of "reverse justice." Meaning, smoking really should have never been allowed in public businesses, or in public in the first place. The fumes are TOXIC. We didn't know that when cigarettes first came onto the scene.

Now, when we have all pulled our heads out, people think they have the right, but only because they had the right. The truth is, they never should have had the right. So the op's complaint is really baseless I feel. If your business doesn't work because the government wont allow people to release toxic fumes inside your walls, so be it. Not to mention the fire hazards that smoking causes.

 

[Paul Schofield]

So the op's complaint is really baseless I feel.

You should read the OP again. There is no complaint and nowhere in there is a case made for smoking in poolrooms. The OP is about the last paragraph.

 

[KRJ]

Enough already. The pool rooms were on running on fumes even a few years back. Then the economy went into the tank like many of us have never seen before. Unemployment was over 10%, foreclosures skyrocketed, stock investments tanked, etc.

And guess what, very good restaurants went out of business, so what chance did some "fringe" pool rooms have in surviving?? Like they say in politics, it is the economy stupid !!

I think the poolroom I play in survived because of the very strong leagues and the great pizza they have..... but I"m pretty sure they are not living high on the hog right now either ....

Nobody dropped out of our league (16 teams) when the smoking ban hit Illinois, and most of the smokers who I thought would be pissed off, were not mad, and actually understood. Heck, they liked that they were smoking less while playing pool and even saving a few bucks in the process.

Don't believe, try and get your team in our Thursday night league at Pyramid Club in Addison... about 20 miles west of Chicago. 16 teams and we have 5 on the waiting list for next session which starts next Thursday...

There are many reasons why pool rooms are in the tank or have shut down, but smoking is not one of them.

 

[AtLarge]

You should read the OP again. There is no complaint and nowhere in there is a case made for smoking in poolrooms. The OP is about the last paragraph.

Well, in post #72, I directly asked you about that last paragraph. You didn't respond. Here's the question again:

What are your ideas on how pool can become "more and different than what it is"?​

 

[Blue Hog ridr]

The smoking ban was brought into my part of Canada years ago.
True enuff, bars and bingo halls suffered momentarily, but in no time, business was back to usual.

Bars built heated smoking areas onto the buildings etc. Yeah sure, I was seriously pee oed about the whole deal for a while. I cut down on my smoking. If I am at the hall, I may go out for one smoke during the evening, rare occasion, maybe two. Better for me right?

It helped me cut down so much that I have one smoke in the morning before work and won't smoke again until I get home again. I don't smoke while at work. How good is that?

I love the game of pool. There is no way that I am going to put cigarettes before my game.

Pool was on the decline long before the smoking bans came into effect.
At least in my area it was.

A dress code will kill business at a pool hall long before a smoking ban will.

 

[justadub]

A dress code will kill business at a pool hall long before a smoking ban will.

:rotflmao1:

 

[Quesports]

Hey Paul, do you smoke cigarettes?

 

[whitewolf]

Can we keep the NPR crap in the NPR section. This thread for the most part has been civilized it would be nice to keep it that way.

Sorry dude. If you want to discuss smoking bans etc., then politics shoud be AN INTEGRAL part of the discussion. You may not agree with what I am saying. In Montgomery County (Md), you get fined if you don't clean the snow off your sidewalk. Doesn't matter if you are old are not. Montgomery County is one of the most liberal counties in the nation. This stems from a liberal mindset - like smoking bans - duh.

 

[krupa]

Well, in post #72, I directly asked you about that last paragraph. You didn't respond. Here's the question again:

What are your ideas on how pool can become "more and different than what it is"?​

Don't bother... I've brought up the same point twice myself, but everyone is more concerned with arguing about the bans themselves. THAT'S what is really "wrong with pool", everyone's *****ing and moaning and no one is apparently doing anything to effect change.

 

[The Chinchilla]

You should read the OP again. There is no complaint and nowhere in there is a case made for smoking in poolrooms. The OP is about the last paragraph.

You said "The new smoking laws are a catastrophic blow and a dagger through the heart of the business of pocket billiards"

I assume you are a pool player. If that is not a complaint, I don't know what is.

Anyway, yall can talk all you want.... it will do about as much good as you guys talking about curing cancer.

 

[KRJ]

First off, one can make polls to sway the public. Polls are notoriously innaccurate. Just look at risky biz's poll, and compare it to an entire U.S. population of only a little over 300 million. One in twenty or so play pool at least thirteen times a year? Not even close. And, the OP's, smokers are mostly the dumber people? Again, just look around, obviously not true.

Smoking has played a part in rooms closing. A FEW rooms, it might actually be the final straw that caused the closing. Depends on how many of the patrons smoked. I know that my going to a room to play has diminished greatly. Mostly due to the economy, but also due to the fact that I can't smoke there. I don't like having to go out in the rain or cold to have a smoke when I want one, so it diminishes any fun I would of had being there.

Hey Neil, I don't disagree with you often, but it saddens me a little that smoking is what adds your enjoyment to this fine game. Heck, my teammates cannot smoke when we play the following sports; baseball, basketball, tennis. The gyms and the park districts don't allow it. But they play anyway cause they love the game. Parents or contestants cannot smoke at my sons Karate tournaments. Nobody can smoke at his band concerts.

But for some reason, pool players are the only "athletes" in the world who need to smoke while competing. Kinda sad in my opinion. I mean, it is one of the very few games on the planet that you can actually drink alchohol during competition, at both the amatuer and professional level. How strong is that? And we still have folks that are NOT interested in playing pool