Why the UPA is Stupid

[JB Cases]

I'm in vegas playing in the World Series of Poker events. I decided to go over to this tourney for a few minutes. They are playing the ACS league nationals ( which I didn't realize) also. The UPA pro event is in a curtained off area in the back of the league event. In a corner of the curtain there is a opening with several ladies watching like a hawk as to not let anyone thru. I only went down to talk to a friend thats playing. I dont have time to hang around and watch any matches. What struck me as odd is this. There are hundreds of pool players there playing the league matches. Many just waiting around for their matches to be called. At the time I was there , I only saw 5 or 6 people inside watching the pros play. I thought it was funny that they would use the energy and expense of 3 people to make sure and collect door fees from a handfull of people as to open it up and let all those players watch a few games in between matches.

It's called extreme shortsightedness. They would have made a decent amount of money IF they let the fans in for free and then had a UPA Gear booth setup selling posters and having face time with the pros. Have a little photo booth set up and the photo software set up on a template that can import the image and spit it out with a frame around it with the date of the event. Charge $5 for a photo of you and yoru favorite UPA "Superstars" - printed and autographed for you on the spot. That's a healthy use of three people that works to make MONEY and create returning customers who want you come back.

How about a challenge table just outside the arena for $10 bucks a game? Other non-UPA pros clean up on such challenge tables.

How about a "5-minute" instruction table where you get 5 minutes to tell the pro what's wrong with your game and he fixes it? Of course you can buy as many 5 minute lessons as you want to.

How about a Pro Team Challenge (I have done this one before to great success) - where teams sign up for a raffle for the right to play a team of pros in the league format?

Being amongst hundreds and thousands of amateur players is a great opportunity for pro players and the promoter/organization to interact with the fans (customers) Putting up a wall though and spending all your energy to keep the pros "exclusive" only results in the majority of people not being interested in what they are doing.

 

[frankwhite]

It's called extreme shortsightedness. They would have made a decent amount of money IF they let the fans in for free and then had a UPA Gear booth setup selling posters and having face time with the pros. Have a little photo booth set up and the photo software set up on a template that can import the image and spit it out with a frame around it with the date of the event. Charge $5 for a photo of you and yoru favorite UPA "Superstars" - printed and autographed for you on the spot. That's a healthy use of three people that works to make MONEY and create returning customers who want you come back.

How about a challenge table just outside the arena for $10 bucks a game? Other non-UPA pros clean up on such challenge tables.

How about a "5-minute" instruction table where you get 5 minutes to tell the pro what's wrong with your game and he fixes it? Of course you can buy as many 5 minute lessons as you want to.

How about a Pro Team Challenge (I have done this one before to great success) - where teams sign up for a raffle for the right to play a team of pros in the league format?

Being amongst hundreds and thousands of amateur players is a great opportunity for pro players and the promoter/organization to interact with the fans (customers) Putting up a wall though and spending all your energy to keep the pros "exclusive" only results in the majority of people not being interested in what they are doing.

Some really great idea's JB......Think FA might take a shot at these, ????? LOL

 

[Mark Griffin]

UPA payouts.

If the numbers in an earlier post are correct, how come the 'payout police' have not said anything?

31 players x $300 entry = $9,300. With $20,000 added that should equal $29,300.

1st $6000.00
2nd $4600.00
3rd $3500.00
4th $2500.00
5-6 $1600.00
7-8 $1250.00
9-12 $675.00

The payouts listed only total $25,000.

Where is the other $4,300????? UPS site said entry included registration fees.

I know if I had an 'error' like that, I would be beaten up till I was 'black & blue' . . .lol

Mark Griffin

 

[frankwhite]

If the numbers in an earlier post are correct, how come the 'payout police' have not said anything?

31 players x $300 entry = $9,300. With $20,000 added that should equal $29,300.

1st $6000.00
2nd $4600.00
3rd $3500.00
4th $2500.00
5-6 $1600.00
7-8 $1250.00
9-12 $675.00

The payouts listed only total $25,000.

Where is the other $4,300????? UPS site said entry included registration fees.

I know if I had an 'error' like that, I would be beaten up till I was 'black & blue' . . .lol

Mark Griffin

$4300.00 to run a tourny, I'm in...LOL LOL

 

[Koop]

Hi Eric,

no, this was Classic Billiards....now Classique Billiards.....in Phoenixville PA...the same room that offers shuttle service to and from the Allen Hopkins SBE.

Frazer is now under new ownership. I stopped in to see the new place last week. Looks great!


G.

Gerry,

That's the place a bunch of us meet every SBE. Nice place and the owners really go out of their way to make sure everything is just right.

Koop

 

[Freddie O]

I am a little pissed right now so let me preface this by saying this post is strictly my opinion and has nothing to do with TAR. That said, check this crap out.

I am all pumped up to go to the UPA event here in Vegas to hang out and watch some of my friends play, take photos and I was planning on texting some match updates. I get to the "arena" and ask the lady at the door how much. It is $10 for the 10am-4pm session $15 for the late session. $25 a day seems a little high but oh well. I ask how much for the whole event. She says $60, so I say "Ok, I will do that." Then she asks if I am an ACS member to which I reply honestly "No." She then informs me it will be $75 for the whole thing.

I'm sorry but $75 to watch a 31 man field with only 1 or 2 of the top ten players is just nuts. So I calm my inner nit and just pay $10 for the morning session figuring I will shoot some pics and see how the event goes.

I get into the "arena" and I am carrying my camera gear in a backpack. I set the back pack on a chair out of the way and start to put my kit together. A lady in a referee shirt comes up and says "Are you involved with this event?". I was a little weirded out by the question and wanted to respond "Not if you paid me." But I just asked her what she meant. She replies "Are you a player in the event?" I say "No." She then proceeds to tell me that you have to pay to be able to watch this tournament at which time I raise my right arm and put the little paper wristband right at her eye level.

She says she is sorry she didn't see the wristband and that not only is she the only referee for this professional event this session she has to watch the door too in order to make sure no one gets in without paying. I tell her "No worries." and go about my business.

I get my stuff put together and go sit down in the stands away from everyone else and take some photos of Josh Ulrich and John Morra playing their matches. John finishes his and comes over, sits down and we talk about the event. As we are doing this I am shooting pictures.

Frank Alverez enters the "Arena" and makes a bee line straight toward me. At this point I say to myself "Self, this is gonna get weird." I was right.

Frank: "I am Frank Alverez President of the UPA. Who are you shooting pictures for?"

Me: "Just for myself really."

Frank: "Who are you with? What media?"

Me: "The Action Report"

Frank: "The Action Report? Whats that?"

Me: "You have never heard of The Action Report? Really?"

Frank: "Well yes but I don't know who you are affiliated with"

Me: "Uhhhhh....what do you mean?"

Frank: At this point he mumbled something about BCA or...I am not sure probably because I was a little freaked out at this point with the interrogation.

Me: "There are people who want to know about this event and I was going to tell them about it. That's all."

Frank: "Well you can shoot pictures if you give us copies of them."

Me: "I am not going to do that."

Frank: "Why not?"

Me: "Because I do not do that. If you want me to stop shooting pictures of your event so I can tell people about it at no cost to you then that is just fine with me."

At this point I think it set in on him how terrible he was coming across because he mumbled some more and said "Well....let me get you a media pass...and...."

By this time I had time to think about totally absurd and stupid this whole thing was and I was pissed so I just broke my stuff down, set it beside me and said "Don't worry about it." Then he just walked away.

Keep in mind, we are at an event with 31 players and five of them are players anyone has heard of. I swear I was the only paying spectator because the only people were there with players. I am shooting pictures with a $4000 camera rig minding my own business and I get the third degree from the owner and president and basically shaken down for the ability to take photos.

I always try and see the other guys point of view but in this case I keep coming back to the same thing. If a promoter is this bloody stupid and short sited then screw him. Here we are at a so called professional event with a referee/bouncer and the biggest concern of the president is that god forbid someone may actually give a sh!t about his event. The same guy who sanctioned a tournament that aired the top finishers and then all he could do was shrug his shoulders. It pisses me off.

Never mind that the company I work for has put more money in players pockets over the last few years than his whole pseudo organization. I am probably still a little pissed so I may be being too hard on the guy but no matter which way you cut it is just dumb.

I feel you brother. The UPA is garbage.

-Freddie O

 

[bfdlad]

If the numbers in an earlier post are correct, how come the 'payout police' have not said anything?

31 players x $300 entry = $9,300. With $20,000 added that should equal $29,300.

1st $6000.00
2nd $4600.00
3rd $3500.00
4th $2500.00
5-6 $1600.00
7-8 $1250.00
9-12 $675.00

The payouts listed only total $25,000.

Where is the other $4,300????? UPS site said entry included registration fees.

I know if I had an 'error' like that, I would be beaten up till I was 'black & blue' . . .lol

Mark Griffin

I also thought the same thing but figured my math was off and I would get hammered for not being able to do math. Not surewhere the rest went Mark, do you have any ideas as I am not as sharp as you

 

[Blackjack]

If the numbers in an earlier post are correct, how come the 'payout police' have not said anything?

31 players x $300 entry = $9,300. With $20,000 added that should equal $29,300.

1st $6000.00
2nd $4600.00
3rd $3500.00
4th $2500.00
5-6 $1600.00
7-8 $1250.00
9-12 $675.00

The payouts listed only total $25,000.

Where is the other $4,300????? UPS site said entry included registration fees.

I know if I had an 'error' like that, I would be beaten up till I was 'black & blue' . . .lol

Mark Griffin

... you have just attended your first class in Frankenomics 101.

 

[BVal]

I also thought the same thing but figured my math was off and I would get hammered for not being able to do math. Not surewhere the rest went Mark, do you have any ideas as I am not as sharp as you

Dammit Mark I assured you your math was correct

BVal

 

[El Diablo]

Well, I won't say anything (okay, not too much) about Frank Alvarez or the UPA, because I am not informed on that. JCIN, I will say that you had a bad experience that left you feeling kind of pissed off and like wtf. It happens. I had a similar experience at the TAR bar myself in Vegas. Let me explain.

I went in to the TAR bar later in the week. I thought I'd pick up another t-shirt or something. There wasn't anyone by where the t-shirts were and the table with the shirts was covered up. No problem, I'll just ask one of the guys. I happened to see JCIN walking around and said "hey, would you be able to show me what you have left for t-shirts?" "Just a minute" was the reply I got. Now, I'm nobody he would know, just some dude. So, I stand around while he is focused on putting a sign up outside of the TAR bar with Bartram's opponents crossed out and some amounts of $ he's either won or lost. I was actually quite amused by this, as was he. So I think, I'll give him a few and he'll be back around. No such luck. I'm just standing there with cash in hand and a friend with me, thinking, well shit, I guess I'll just go down to the bca booth and buy another shirt.

I guess my point is, sure in Frankie's case, he should have realized that people who pay to be at an event are the ones who make the event. The fact that he doesn't know what TAR is sort if makes me say, wtf. But, when you are running an event, maybe you are not focused on the little things around you. JCIN, realize that not just every swinging dick that walks into the event is looking to match up on the tables or is a pool groupie (I mean mostly guys, so don't get the wrong idea ladies). We might be, however, loyal, ppv buying customers.

I wasn't that disappointed that I didnt get a "nit" t-shirt, and I will continue to be a TAR fan and paying customer. I think what you are doing is great. I do hope that the next time I come by to give you some of my hard earned cash, maybe I'll get I'll get a shirt or two.

 

[JCIN]

Well, I won't say anything (okay, not too much) about Frank Alvarez or the UPA, because I am not informed on that. JCIN, I will say that you had a bad experience that left you feeling kind of pissed off and like wtf. It happens. I had a similar experience at the TAR bar myself in Vegas. Let me explain.

I went in to the TAR bar later in the week. I thought I'd pick up another t-shirt or something. There wasn't anyone by where the t-shirts were and the table with the shirts was covered up. No problem, I'll just ask one of the guys. I happened to see JCIN walking around and said "hey, would you be able to show me what you have left for t-shirts?" "Just a minute" was the reply I got. Now, I'm nobody he would know, just some dude. So, I stand around while he is focused on putting a sign up outside of the TAR bar with Bartram's opponents crossed out and some amounts of $ he's either won or lost. I was actually quite amused by this, as was he. So I think, I'll give him a few and he'll be back around. No such luck. I'm just standing there with cash in hand and a friend with me, thinking, well shit, I guess I'll just go down to the bca booth and buy another shirt.

I guess my point is, sure in Frankie's case, he should have realized that people who pay to be at an event are the ones who make the event. The fact that he doesn't know what TAR is sort if makes me say, wtf. But, when you are running an event, maybe you are not focused on the little things around you. JCIN, realize that not just every swinging dick that walks into the event is looking to match up on the tables or is a pool groupie (I mean mostly guys, so don't get the wrong idea ladies). We might be, however, loyal, ppv buying customers.

I wasn't that disappointed that I didnt get a "nit" t-shirt, and I will continue to be a TAR fan and paying customer. I think what you are doing is great. I do hope that the next time I come by to give you some of my hard earned cash, maybe I'll get I'll get a shirt or two.

Sorry you had a bad experience. I honestly do not remember that interaction but I believe you. Chances are I either asked someone else to get you the shirt or I just screwed up and spaced it. By that point in the event I had the attention span of a fruit fly.

If you will PM your address we will send you a couple of shirts free as long as we still have the sizes. Sorry about the screw up, I can see where that would piss you off a little.

 

[El Diablo]

Sorry you had a bad experience. I honestly do not remember that interaction but I believe you. Chances are I either asked someone else to get you the shirt or I just screwed up and spaced it. By that point in the event I had the attention span of a fruit fly.

If you will PM your address we will send you a couple of shirts free as long as we still have the sizes. Sorry about the screw up, I can see where that would piss you off a little.

Ha ha, I could tell that the attention span was lacking. Honestly, I was probably about in the same frame of mind myself by then (maybe even now). I appreciate the offer for the free shirts, but it's okay. If anything, the offer shows me what kind of a guy you are, and that's enough. I'm definitely not or wasn't too pissed about it.

 

["T"]

Never mind that the company I work for has put more money in players pockets over the last few years than his whole pseudo organization.

This is priceless.

 

[satman]

Fabulous

It's called extreme shortsightedness. They would have made a decent amount of money IF they let the fans in for free and then had a UPA Gear booth setup selling posters and having face time with the pros. Have a little photo booth set up and the photo software set up on a template that can import the image and spit it out with a frame around it with the date of the event. Charge $5 for a photo of you and yoru favorite UPA "Superstars" - printed and autographed for you on the spot. That's a healthy use of three people that works to make MONEY and create returning customers who want you come back.QUOTE]



That right there, is one of the best idea's I've heard in a long time. Especially in Vegas, with all the pool loving league players milling around. You have people paying $10 to $50 for T- shirts all over town. Selling the T's for $10 would be easy if all they had was the event name and date. Have all the players from the event sign about 10 shirts and sell raffle tickets to raffle them off. These would be shirts that no one can purchase. During BCA and VNEA there's maybe 7 or 8000 players with money milling around looking to spend it. I promise you, if someone did that, they would make 10 times what they would off the spectators paying $25 a day to watch.

As for the entry total's not adding up right. We've all seen this happen. At one of the mini tour events,{I won't say which one} I was standing with some of the top players at the event chatting. One guy was questioning the total of the calcutta not seeming right. I told him about a guy whose wife had written down every bid, and when we tracked him down, his wife had gone home. He called her and got the total from her. When we confronted the tourney director, he went to check into it. He came back about 20 minutes later with a story about someone adding it wrong. It was $535 short. How do you add that up wrong? 1 column wrong, maybe, but 3 of them?

 

[Dan Harriman]

I'm in vegas playing in the World Series of Poker events. I decided to go over to this tourney for a few minutes. They are playing the ACS league nationals ( which I didn't realize) also. The UPA pro event is in a curtained off area in the back of the league event. In a corner of the curtain there is a opening with several ladies watching like a hawk as to not let anyone thru. I only went down to talk to a friend thats playing. I dont have time to hang around and watch any matches. What struck me as odd is this. There are hundreds of pool players there playing the league matches. Many just waiting around for their matches to be called. At the time I was there , I only saw 5 or 6 people inside watching the pros play. I thought it was funny that they would use the energy and expense of 3 people to make sure and collect door fees from a handfull of people as to open it up and let all those players watch a few games in between matches.

There may be an honest explanation for the curtain Kevin, it's Franks way of hiding from the players he owes $ and trophy's to. Don't let the hand shake and the smile fool ya' (smiling faces.) He said I was using the fact that I had not been paid in his tournament as a bargaining tool to not pay his $100.00 yearly membership fee. It's not my place to speak negative about any org. trying to promote Pocket Billiards, somebody really messed up giving Frank the job. I guess they saw that the UPA was a sinking ship and Frank would lead it to still waters. Believe it or not I hope the best for the future of Men's Pool and my complaint about the UPA only is direccted towards Frank and none else that is with the UPA.

 

[bfdlad]

There may be an honest explanation for the curtain Kevin, it's Franks way of hiding from the players he owes $ and trophy's to. Don't let the hand shake and the smile fool ya' (smiling faces.) He said I was using the fact that I had not been paid in his tournament as a bargaining tool to not pay his $100.00 yearly membership fee. It's not my place to speak negative about any org. trying to promote Pocket Billiards, somebody really messed up giving Frank the job. I guess they saw that the UPA was a sinking ship and Frank would lead it to still waters. Believe it or not I hope the best for the future of Men's Pool and my complaint about the UPA only is direccted towards Frank and none else that is with the UPA.

I am not sure if I am hearing you right, cos it don't make sense. Are you saying that the UPA owed you money from a tourney and had not paid you, yet they expected you to pay your membership fee?

 

[UrackmIcrackm]

I am not sure if I am hearing you right, cos it don't make sense. Are you saying that the UPA owed you money from a tourney and had not paid you, yet they expected you to pay your membership fee?

Whoosh!!!!

 

[Dan Harriman]

I am not sure if I am hearing you right, cos it don't make sense. Are you saying that the UPA owed you money from a tourney and had not paid you, yet they expected you to pay your membership fee?

That is correct, as a matter of fact the tournament that I could not get paid in was sanctioned by the upa (which makes them somewhat responsable.) Personally I think Frank had it out for me, what is weird is he had some of the board members ask me for this $100.00 yearly fee and I explained my situation to them but they also were hypnotized into Franki's way of thinking. Since then one of the ex board members ( I won't mention any names) has apolagized explaining that he was unaware that I was owed that $. I did explain to him at the time the situation however I think Frank probably warned him that I was not too excited about paying my fee and I he was kind of under Frank's spell, I would imagine Frank left out the part about me being owed $2000.00 from the a upa sanctioned event to this particular ex board member who is also a great player in his own right and a fine gentleman of the game.

I have never forfeited a match in my life on purpose but I could not take anymore of Frank's harrasment and at my last and final upa event Frank got up in my face maybe about an inch from my nose and insisted that I pay his petty one hundred dollar membership fee, it was at this tournament that I had won the year before that I did forfeit my match and have not played a upa event since. It is a shame that the upa is even allowed to advertise here on az, I do understand about yearly fee's but I was struggling to make it from tourmament to "" and then I had to deal with Frank also. Please understand I was not seeking attention for myself or anything like that I just never dreamed that Frank would not take the $100.00 dollar entry fee off the $2000.00 the upa owed me. The upa should not be allowed to hold any tournaments or sell any franchise junk if they cannot pay the players what they are owed (while harrasing them for some stupid fee and Frank said if u don't pay your fee I won't let u play, Frank's inability to be more understanding and take the fee off the $2000.00 I was still owed is more than being a poor businessman.) Frank was stubborn and said that if I wanted to continue to play on the upa I would have to cough up the $100.00 membership fee regaurdless of the $2000.00 that Brady and the upa ie. Shame on u Frank i never did anything to u, I will never understand your position on this one at all.

I think he may be some sort of control freak and I assure you that is not too far off from the truth, I only wish Frank would have worked with me on the 100.00 dollar fee. Ohh well no big deal but it is amazing how much some people enjoy the thrill of being the boss instead of working things out in a ordrely fashion. I am currently still owed $ from the upa, and again I am not seeking any attention from this - and I do not wish to discuss this any more just simply stating my past business dealings with Frank. Thanks for reading and sorry it was so long about neg. stuff but this is the way it went down. I will be happy to discuss this issue with any upa board members as it is their franchise that I am being so critical towards, I don't think Frank wants to discuss this as Blackjack and others have tried to help me on this and have learned more about Frank as a person.

Sincereley, Danny Harriman

 

[mosconiac]

Good gravy. What Danny alledges is truly depressing. That someone so petty & misguided is in control...of anything...speaks volumes for the sport.

 

[bfdlad]

That is correct, as a matter of fact the tournament that I could not get paid in was sanctioned by the upa (which makes them somewhat responsable.) Personally I think Frank had it out for me, what is weird is he had some of the board members ask me for this $100.00 yearly fee and I explained my situation to them but they also were hypnotized into Franki's way of thinking. Since then one of the ex board members ( I won't mention any names) has apolagized explaining that he was unaware that I was owed that $. I did explain to him at the time the situation however I think Frank probably warned him that I was not too excited about paying my fee and I he was kind of under Frank's spell, I would imagine Frank left out the part about me being owed $2000.00 from the a upa sanctioned event to this particular ex board member who is also a great player in his own right and a fine gentleman of the game.

I have never forfeited a match in my life on purpose but I could not take anymore of Frank's harrasment and at my last and final upa event Frank got up in my face maybe about an inch from my nose and insisted that I pay his petty one hundred dollar membership fee, it was at this tournament that I had won the year before that I did forfeit my match and have not played a upa event since. It is a shame that the upa is even allowed to advertise here on az, I do understand about yearly fee's but I was struggling to make it from tourmament to "" and then I had to deal with Frank also. Please understand I was not seeking attention for myself or anything like that I just never dreamed that Frank would not take the $100.00 dollar entry fee off the $2000.00 the upa owed me. The upa should not be allowed to hold any tournaments or sell any franchise junk if they cannot pay the players what they are owed (while harrasing them for some stupid fee and Frank said if u don't pay your fee I won't let u play, Frank's inability to be more understanding and take the fee off the $2000.00 I was still owed is more than being a poor businessman.) Frank was stubborn and said that if I wanted to continue to play on the upa I would have to cough up the $100.00 membership fee regaurdless of the $2000.00 that Brady and the upa ie. Shame on u Frank i never did anything to u, I will never understand your position on this one at all.

I think he may be some sort of control freak and I assure you that is not too far off from the truth, I only wish Frank would have worked with me on the 100.00 dollar fee. Ohh well no big deal but it is amazing how much some people enjoy the thrill of being the boss instead of working things out in a ordrely fashion. I am currently still owed $ from the upa, and again I am not seeking any attention from this - and I do not wish to discuss this any more just simply stating my past business dealings with Frank. Thanks for reading and sorry it was so long about neg. stuff but this is the way it went down. I will be happy to discuss this issue with any upa board members as it is their franchise that I am being so critical towards, I don't think Frank wants to discuss this as Blackjack and others have tried to help me on this and have learned more about Frank as a person.

Sincereley, Danny Harriman

Ok, well that makes more sense now. By the way I think that Frank can only stop you playing in UPA events right? Well can you tell me what events there are that are UPA Events? I'm not sure that you are really losing out on much at this point. I am sorry that you didn't get paid. I am guessing it was the Arizona event. Cos I know that there was alot of probs there.