Will Chinese Cue production effect the Custom Cue Market in the near future or not?

manwon

manwon

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This is a subject that I have been thinking about a great deal lately. Since I make some conversion cues myself, I have considered expanding my operation. I have also considered buying a CNC Controller for a table saw and possible a CNC controlled inlay machine. My only reservation is not money, or even having the time to learn how to use the equipment properly, it mainly has to do with the current market for custom cues.

With the increased quality over the last ten years of Chinese Import Cues, and with the so called Chinese Custom lines being produced how will this effect the Market for quality Custom cues here in the United States. While I am also a retailer, and I own a pool hall, I have seen the effect that this subject is having on the production cue makers throughout this country. Many have had to shit or get off the toilet, prices for their cues have not greatly increased over the last ten years, matter of fact they have had to decrease their prices to a level not seen since the 1980's. Along with this they have also had to use materials that are below the quality they used in years past. In addition most have also started lines of cues for resale produced in China to compete with the current market.

Now with all this said, how long will it be before, some one starts marketing cues again as custom cues, that are actually made in China and imported to this country. In addition, how long will it be before they begin to market very high quality custom cues that equal what is being made here by our local custom cue makers, and what will stop them from doing this?

In my opinion, the only thing they will have to do to equal what is being built here by our top custom makers is to increase the quality of the materials that are used, and to incorporate new / unique designs that are not used today in this country. Their equipment is certainly equal to any used here, there ability to properly build a cue is sound ( they taught how to build cues by Bill Stroud), all the necessary manufacturing infrastructure is certainly in place and they are a very industries people who can accomplish anything they put their minds to.

Last will traditional construction techniques have any effect on deterring this attack on the custom cue business here in the USA, due to it's time consuming nature or will they also over come this obstacle

Please give me your opinion on this subject, and thanks for your thought's

Have a good day!!!!!!!!
 
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Creig;

It's strange to see that you are considering CNC after our last discussion, but as mentioned, everybody has their own thought on this and we are all sharing them here. Which again is the great thing about having a user community as this:)

I have discussed this topic earlier in a heated battle about the quality of Chinese imports.
You could read the discussion here : http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=88101


For me the conclusion was that there is a wast amount of cues made down in Asia where possible many players/owners do not know the origin of their own cue.
My judgement (on the linked discussion) was based on some cues which most likely is not representative to today's products, but the amount of products made down in Asia seems to me to be a big overload compared to traditional US made cues. Specially when it was announced that Taican produce the Predatorline of products which can be seen on a lot of professional pool players chest.

I think that manufacturers outside of Asia needs to focus on a more exclusive line of cues which has unique designs and quality issues which makes the potential buyer actually interested in paying for something which sticks out. This must be as mentioned in quality and design (for playability) and visual design (eye candy). In other words you need to stand out and I do not think it would be related to hand carved cues or handmade pockets and inlays. It needs to be something else.

I'm not sure how it is in the US, but over here a common school "learning" is the story about Japanese cars impact on the US marked. Car manufacturers did not think this was a problem because the early products was not in the same quality as the US cars in the 70's. But the Japanese cars was soon picking up the quality issues and actually passed the US cars in quality at some point. This is based on the my memory from way back in school.

I would hate to see the same thing happen in the cue industry. As a parallel, Brunswick is loosing ground in my part of the world ins respect of p.tables simply because the asian products is equal in quality and cost 1/3 of a GC4.

This is just my humble view on things, again from a cue buyers perspective which has still not made any cues :rolleyes:

I still would like to try a cue made in Asia built in the best factory with the representative quality to see how they perform. For me this would be a objective and valuable investigation (John... ?) .

N
 
my thoughts

Craig,

My thoughts are that the CNC shaft is fine. Here it isn't what you cut it with but how you cut it and in how many steps. The critical parts aren't CNC cut in a small shop anyway. You can cut out most inserts with a CNC too. However, if you want to separate yourself from the low volume production people or even the high volume production people, you are going to have to do what the machines can't. That means sharp points on inlays and pockets and/or a level of quality that production can't match. Pioneering your own designs and techniques puts you out by yourself too.

There will always be a market for quality regardless of the price it is sold at. I quit trying to compete with anyone on the basis of price over thirty-five years ago. I have been very successful while those competing purely on price couldn't survive.

The people that want chinese cues will buy chinese cues. The people that want a handcrafted cue made by a man that takes pride in the construction of every cue will always seek out these cues. Confidence in equipment is huge and nothing gives confidence like knowing that your equipment has been hand assembled start to finish by a master craftsman.

Hu
 
Here's my 2 California cents, if your cues look pretty, are solidly constructed and they hit great, there will be buyers.
If you have fugly cues and hit kaka, who cares if you used chisel and handsanded them?
 
ShootingArts said:
Craig,

My thoughts are that the CNC shaft is fine. Here it isn't what you cut it with but how you cut it and in how many steps. The critical parts aren't CNC cut in a small shop anyway. You can cut out most inserts with a CNC too. However, if you want to separate yourself from the low volume production people or even the high volume production people, you are going to have to do what the machines can't. That means sharp points on inlays and pockets and/or a level of quality that production can't match. Pioneering your own designs and techniques puts you out by yourself too.

There will always be a market for quality regardless of the price it is sold at. I quit trying to compete with anyone on the basis of price over thirty-five years ago. I have been very successful while those competing purely on price couldn't survive.

The people that want chinese cues will buy chinese cues. The people that want a handcrafted cue made by a man that takes pride in the construction of every cue will always seek out these cues. Confidence in equipment is huge and nothing gives confidence like knowing that your equipment has been hand assembled start to finish by a master craftsman.

Hu
Click to expand...

Hear Hear!
 
ShootingArts said:
Craig,

My thoughts are that the CNC shaft is fine. Here it isn't what you cut it with but how you cut it and in how many steps. The critical parts aren't CNC cut in a small shop anyway. You can cut out most inserts with a CNC too. However, if you want to separate yourself from the low volume production people or even the high volume production people, you are going to have to do what the machines can't. That means sharp points on inlays and pockets and/or a level of quality that production can't match. Pioneering your own designs and techniques puts you out by yourself too.

There will always be a market for quality regardless of the price it is sold at. I quit trying to compete with anyone on the basis of price over thirty-five years ago. I have been very successful while those competing purely on price couldn't survive.

The people that want chinese cues will buy chinese cues. The people that want a handcrafted cue made by a man that takes pride in the construction of every cue will always seek out these cues. Confidence in equipment is huge and nothing gives confidence like knowing that your equipment has been hand assembled start to finish by a master craftsman.

Hu
Click to expand...

Hu, I love the way you put the following: (you are going to have to do what the machines can't. That means sharp points on inlays and pockets and/or a level of quality that production can't match. Pioneering your own designs and techniques puts you out by yourself too. )

I also feel the same way, and I think this will always be the case!!!!!;)
 
JoeyInCali said:
Here's my 2 California cents, if your cues look pretty, are solidly constructed and they hit great, there will be buyers.
If you have fugly cues and hit kaka, who cares if you used chisel and handsanded them?
Click to expand...

Joey;

Totally agree with you here.
However what Hu and many of us don't know is; Where is you're cue actually made?
Of course if you have a custom made by a known cuemaker you know who,where and when. But for me (which don't have ever owned a Predator simply because they are as common as green or blue cloth in the pool halls) it was a little surprising to see that these cues where produced down in Asia.
Which again I do believe owners do not know.
I'm not saying this is something wrong, but again referring to the previous discussion (which you Joey participated in) it's not always obvious who makes who. And as you say, if the cue technology is innovative players is no different then in other sports; We like to test the latest "new" innovation to see if this improves our game.
I know I'm at least like this. But then of course you have those who play with the same cue they bought 20 years ago, which no cumakers or cue manufacturers earns money on...

N
 
sharp points won't make a cue play better though, and for those who only care about how the cue plays (like current Schon, Joss, McDermott, etc. players) it won't matter if inlays are 100% CNC. Craftsmanship and skill at making non-CNC cues will only matter to collectors (and a select few players) VERY soon. If I try a Lucasi for example that plays like or better than a lot of the "CUSTOM" cues I've tried, it's a no brainer for me...200 bones vs. 2000.....
 
Newton said:
Creig;

It's strange to see that you are considering CNC after our last discussion, but as mentioned, everybody has their own thought on this and we are all sharing them here. Which again is the great thing about having a user community as this:)

I have discussed this topic earlier in a heated battle about the quality of Chinese imports.
You could read the discussion here : http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=88101


For me the conclusion was that there is a wast amount of cues made down in Asia where possible many players/owners do not know the origin of their own cue.
My judgement (on the linked discussion) was based on some cues which most likely is not representative to today's products, but the amount of products made down in Asia seems to me to be a big overload compared to traditional US made cues. Specially when it was announced that Taican produce the Predatorline of products which can be seen on a lot of professional pool players chest.

I think that manufacturers outside of Asia needs to focus on a more exclusive line of cues which has unique designs and quality issues which makes the potential buyer actually interested in paying for something which sticks out. This must be as mentioned in quality and design (for playability) and visual design (eye candy). In other words you need to stand out and I do not think it would be related to hand carved cues or handmade pockets and inlays. It needs to be something else.

I'm not sure how it is in the US, but over here a common school "learning" is the story about Japanese cars impact on the US marked. Car manufacturers did not think this was a problem because the early products was not in the same quality as the US cars in the 70's. But the Japanese cars was soon picking up the quality issues and actually passed the US cars in quality at some point. This is based on the my memory from way back in school.

I would hate to see the same thing happen in the cue industry. As a parallel, Brunswick is loosing ground in my part of the world ins respect of p.tables simply because the Asian products is equal in quality and cost 1/3 of a GC4.

This is just my humble view on things, again from a cue buyers perspective which has still not made any cues :rolleyes:

I still would like to try a cue made in Asia built in the best factory with the representative quality to see how they perform. For me this would be a objective and valuable investigation (John... ?) .

N
Click to expand...

I think what you said below may not work, because the only thing I think that the Chinese will not do is use traditional construction methods because of the time required: (I think that manufacturers outside of Asia needs to focus on a more exclusive line of cues which has unique designs and quality issues which makes the potential buyer actually interested in paying for something which sticks out. This must be as mentioned in quality and design (for playability) and visual design (eye candy). In other words you need to stand out and I do not think it would be related to hand carved cues or handmade pockets and inlays. It needs to be something else)

The statement below proves even more to me that the only niche that will remain in the market in the near future will be hands on traditional craftsmanship. Because I also remember very well how the US Car market under estimated the Asian Import market in the 1970's.
(I'm not sure how it is in the US, but over here a common school "learning" is the story about Japanese cars impact on the US marked. Car manufacturers did not think this was a problem because the early products was not in the same quality as the US cars in the 70's. But the Japanese cars was soon picking up the quality issues and actually passed the US cars in quality at some point. This is based on the my memory from way back in school. )

Thanks for your input
 
my cue

Newton,

My cue is made by a man that caters to my every whim, me! :D :D :D

You are right though. There will always be those that want to chase after every new thing and there are those that think that their level of play doesn't justify a quality cue. These are the reasons the market is so broad.

One thing I will comment on as a former beginner in many forms of competition. I have started out with top class equipment most of the time. I have occasionally started with fairly low quality equipment. It is far easier to learn on quality equipment that both works right and you know works right. That doesn't mean that a five thousand dollar cue is needed to learn with, but it does mean that it is almost certainly better to buy a cue from a quality builder than to go down to the local chain and buy a cue off the rack for fifty bucks just for the confidence it gives in your equipment.

As for those guys that play with the same cue and shaft for twenty years, fear them! They are likely to know their equipment better than the people that change every few months ever will. the old snooker players used to make a career with one cue. Bad for business but for your best play, get good equipment which suits you although this may take several tries. Then lock into that equipment and play with it. If you have to have a new shiny butt, have it made to fit your shaft and much like your old butt in weight and balance. Don't let anyone use your playing shaft. After a few years losing it will be almost like losing your hand as far as play is concerned.

Hu




Newton said:
Joey;

Totally agree with you here.
However what Hu and many of us don't know is; Where is you're cue actually made?
Of course if you have a custom made by a known cuemaker you know who,where and when. But for me (which don't have ever owned a Predator simply because they are as common as green or blue cloth in the pool halls) it was a little surprising to see that these cues where produced down in Asia.
Which again I do believe owners do not know.
I'm not saying this is something wrong, but again referring to the previous discussion (which you Joey participated in) it's not always obvious who makes who. And as you say, if the cue technology is innovative players is no different then in other sports; We like to test the latest "new" innovation to see if this improves our game.
I know I'm at least like this. But then of course you have those who play with the same cue they bought 20 years ago, which no cumakers or cue manufacturers earns money on...

N
Click to expand...
 
Creig;

I'm not sure if you read the linked discussion but something you should be aware about is the following; The Asian factories has been "joining forces" with some pretty well known US cue makers (without mentioning names) which I'm sure has learned them a trick or two.
I would not be surprised if this includes techniques referred to as old school so it might be that fully spliced cues and "hand made" options is available.
And then I mean now.

I'm not sure where I picked this up but it might be the thread mentioned which I don't have all answers in my head, but I'll let my brain work for some minutes and I PM you the source.

If the quality "trades" and methods is performed in the same way down in a low cost country, I would for sure be shaking my pant's if I was a cue maker which had cues as a primary income.

But I agree with you, there would always be those who pays big money for a cue hand made and in some kind of mystic way, but I guess the competition would be even harder for the times to come.

A prediction based on how the Asian marked is evolving these day's. I mean, what is not made down there (with a ironic flavor) :)
Last thing I heard on the news was that the Chinese economy was overheated - the country's economy goes/grows like nothing else...

Again, just my humble observation which possibly not everybody agree with.

N
 
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I think there will allways be a market for someone who makes a cue for a specific person. This form of custom cue is desirable , because these people like to say Cuemaker X made this cue for me. They even signed it.
This is a different market to ordering a cue that matches your specifications.The cue may be just as nice, except you have no connection to who actually made it.It might as well be a cue on the rack at a local retail store.
Neil
 
manwon said:
I think what you said below may not work, because the only thing I think that the Chinese will not do is use traditional construction methods because of the time required: (I think that manufacturers outside of Asia needs to focus on a more exclusive line of cues which has unique designs and quality issues which makes the potential buyer actually interested in paying for something which sticks out. This must be as mentioned in quality and design (for playability) and visual design (eye candy). In other words you need to stand out and I do not think it would be related to hand carved cues or handmade pockets and inlays. It needs to be something else)

The statement below proves even more to me that the only niche that will remain in the market in the near future will be hands on traditional craftsmanship. Because I also remember very well how the US Car market under estimated the Asian Import market in the 1970's.
(I'm not sure how it is in the US, but over here a common school "learning" is the story about Japanese cars impact on the US marked. Car manufacturers did not think this was a problem because the early products was not in the same quality as the US cars in the 70's. But the Japanese cars was soon picking up the quality issues and actually passed the US cars in quality at some point. This is based on the my memory from way back in school. )

Thanks for your input
Click to expand...

Everyone must decide where their nic in the cue world will be. All of my inlays are CNC and I don't sharpen with a exacto to make the pockets sharper. For the most part all of the cues I build are sold to a customer who is totally happy with the product he has just received from me. I have no fears of foreign imports cutting into my market as I know that anyone who orders a cue from me would rather have a sister in a whore house as an import cue in their case. Serious pool players are who order my cues. They want a nice looking cue but more so they want a good playing dependable cue and that is why they have ordered from me. I build totally custom cues from the tip to the bumper. You decide the aesthetics, tip, ferrule, shaft taper, shaft size, shaft length, shaft deco-rings, type of joint, pin, piloted or flat face, type of woods in cue, type of wrap or lack of, weight, balance point, length of cue, diameter of cue at joint and butt cap. In other words - Completely Custom - to you. This is why my customers are happy. They don't get a cue built the way I prefer, they get a cue built the way they, the customer, prefer. Everyone is talking about how the cue market is slowing down. This past summer, which is the slow time for pool playing, was the busiest I've been since I started building cues almost 20 years ago.
If you are a custom cue maker and have to worry about Asian imports then you haven't found your nic in the cue making industry.

Dick
 
conetip said:
I think there will allways be a market for someone who makes a cue for a specific person. This form of custom cue is desirable , because these people like to say Cuemaker X made this cue for me. They even signed it.
This is a different market to ordering a cue that matches your specifications.The cue may be just as nice, except you have no connection to who actually made it.It might as well be a cue on the rack at a local retail store.
Neil
Click to expand...

The thing is though, I could go to Scotty Cameron's Studio (shop), have him go through a thorough analysis and fitting (just like the pros who play his putters do), and still come home a putt better with a PING putter I bought "off the rack" without such customization, and personal attention. Oh, and at a fraction of the cost. I'm not saying that having everything built to "your specs" and with your input on style won't be better, but are you POSITIVE it will be??? I'm not, so, I'll try a bunch to find what I like, and then stick with what I shoot best with. That gets awfully pricy at $1K+ per experiment...
 
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I agree with conetip. There will always be a market for a hand made custom cue made by a person with a name. Some only want playability, some want a piece of art. Some think they can play as well with an $80 cue as a $1000 cue, and some think the more they spend the better the cue will hit. The percentage of people that gravitate towards which side of the market change, but their will always be some percentage of each market available.

I believe I can make a CB do the same thing with an $80 chinese cue as I can with some better customs I have hit. However, I do like the "finish" involved in a well made custom cue, and will always prefer to buy an American made product whenever possible.

Our country looks at things from many different points of view. That in itself will create different markets. The current and likely impending recession will probably decrease the custom market, and increase the low cost high production market from a percentage basis. I do think that overall, cue sales in general will siffer for the next few yrs.
 
Newton said:
I would hate to see the same thing happen in the cue industry. As a parallel, Brunswick is loosing ground in my part of the world ins respect of p.tables simply because the asian products is equal in quality and cost 1/3 of a GC4.N
Click to expand...
I thought Brunswicks are made in China.:confused:
 
Rackem;

I might be arrested now, but that was my impression was well. The last table I think was made in the US was GCIII where the GC4 is made down there. But I'm not 100% sure - I remember I was discussing this in the table section a long time back.

If you read the linked thread you would see a comparison. A a GCV costs $15500 (with current rates and new model) as a initial "misleading" pricing. Then you get discount.
If it's made in Asia as a I think the Dynamic tables are (which costs in the range of $5800) there is no rocket science needed to see that the GC V is loosing ground... Even if it's made in the same place. I would not like to do a thread highjack so pleas read the linked discussion.

N
 
I have seen cues by a Twaianese family and a sample of how they are supposedly constructed. Very impressive. However, give me a cuemaker who loves and appreciates woods and who will also not compromise his construction quality. Forunately, or unfortunately this type of person will make a limited number of cues annually but will always have a customer for what he lovingly makes. He is an artist and will not compromise with points with rounded ends. He is hands on and meticulous in all he does. He does what he does for the love and satisfaction he derives from his art. He does not concern himself with China--period!
 
rackem said:
I thought Brunswicks are made in China.:confused:
Click to expand...

Brunswick tables are made in both Brazil and China. Certain parts of the metal materials are made in China, along with the slate which is mined there. The wooden parts of most Brunswick tables are made in Brazil, and slate is also mined there for use on Brunswick tables. The rubber used on all Brunswick tables to my knowledge is Chinese, however, it may be possible to order Artemus rubber for a premium.
 
If the china made products continue to improve, it will have an impact on the market, IMHO... to what extent I dont know, but I wouldnt bet against it..


SPINDOKTOR
 
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