Will Chinese Cue production effect the Custom Cue Market in the near future or not?
- Thread starter manwon
- Start date
I think a good case study is the motorcycle. Back in the late 60's and early 70's the rice burners were getting to be very popular. The Harley was losing ground. It seems as if everyone jump on the Japanese bikes because they were cheaper and supposedly of better quality. More bang for the buck.
Try to find one of those old bikes today. You will find those old Harleys still hanging around but I don't think there are any of those old Kows or Hondas on the road.
What bike is the most popular today? My guess is Harley.
Try to find one of those old bikes today. You will find those old Harleys still hanging around but I don't think there are any of those old Kows or Hondas on the road.
What bike is the most popular today? My guess is Harley.
manwon said:
if you have the money, would you settle for a Toyota over a Rolls Royce?
Hail Mary Shot said:
Bad anaolgy, some of us wouldn't have a $200K+ car if we had Gates' money. I know I wouldn't. Don't know if there's a Toyota that I'd buy with endless funds available, but I'm certain I wouldn't have a Rolls.......
trustyrusty said:
I'm looking from a person who earns 20k each month or a millionaire collectors' point of view. the thread is about production line cue versus custom made cue. if this were painting, I would say the Monalisa versus paintings sold at K-Mart. I think I made the right analogy.
we are talking about collector's value here, not necessity. the very ideal that custom cues are made for.
Hail Mary Shot said:
Well I am looking at it from a dead broke - gazillionaire players point of view. I wouldn't buy a cue to hang on a wall or collect. I want a cue to play. So, when I read a post about production vs. custom, I think playability only. If I find a $500 dollar production cue that I love (how it plays), what do I care how much it's worth on the resale market??? I'm pretty certain that anyone buying a chinese cue (note the title of this post) isn't buying the cue for collection purposes.
if in fact that the argument of necessity prevails over collection value, I would suppose that the same goes for rare items (in general) being sold at the auction houses. but that is not the case, there will always be rich people who would be willing to pay for what they personally consider as priceless items (though some items I find really ridiculous).
I'm not debating or arguing the fact that a single cue worth $20k would be able to outsell a $20 cue which is massively produced. but surely a single production cue doesn't have the collector's value in it that will make it worth more than it's original value $20. customs are what we call as luxuries, not necessities.
I'm not debating or arguing the fact that a single cue worth $20k would be able to outsell a $20 cue which is massively produced. but surely a single production cue doesn't have the collector's value in it that will make it worth more than it's original value $20. customs are what we call as luxuries, not necessities.
Hail Mary Shot said:
First of all, I am not wealth by anyones standards. However, I am fortunate to have a decent income that includes my Military retirement. But, I am a very relaxed individual, to me I flaunt nothing. So without a doubt I would take the Toyota, in fact I drive a Toyota Tacoma as we speak.
Hail Mary Shot said:
Let me ask you this, what makes collectors value? Please let me and all the others who build cues here know, if there is some exact science to collectors value. Because in my opinion collectors value is based solely upon likes and dislikes, along with supply and demand. Now I would also venture to say that very few people can accurately predict which cues being made today will be the collector items of the future. Because some one can spend $20,000 or even $100,000 on a cue built by a current cue maker can not gaurranty collectiblity, except to the person who purchased it. Any item is only worth what some one will pay for it, and while that person spent a certain amount money will never guaranty another person will.
There are to many factors that go into any market, and lets not ever forget the luck of being at the right place at the right time. There are currently many cue makers in this country that are sought after by collectors. However, this could change at anytime given the right circumstances or situation, and beyond that no one can predict what future collectors may be looking far.
Hail Mary Shot said:
I was not trying to debate on luxuries vs necessities either....
If the question posed was will chinese produced cues effect the custom "collectors" cue market, the obvious and very simple answer is NO.
But, how I was taking the question is....example here - buddy let's me shoot with his ebony Diveney hustler (with simple, but good looking butterflies into the ebony - I think red, blue, and snakewood). I know absolutely nothing about this cue before shooting with it, and low and behold it's the best playing cue I've ever tried (this is a true story). If he were to point out to me a MADE IN CHINA sticker on it and said he got it at WALMART for $30 it wouldn't change how I felt about how it played. Now, if China does start making cues that play similar to the Diveney I played at a much lower cost, then YES Chinese cue production will DEFINITELY hurt the custom cue market. I'm not sure where Lucasi cues are made (pretty sure it's an asian cue), but if I were to try one of theirs, that played as well....who knows. I currently play American made cues, and probably won't change anytime soon, but I was merely answering the question asked. If China starts using technologies to construct better made cues that play really well at ridiculously low prices ... it'll hurt the custom cue market.
masonh said:
Hey Mason, I have to kinda disagree with you here. While you can get sharp points using CnC equipment to cut points with a small bit, they can still be identified as such. This is mostly possible because they will be perfectly flush in most cases. However, their are currently some high end cue makers who cut their points using CNC controlled machinery, and then finish them by hand and with other methods to make their points appear not to be made using CNC controlled equipment. In fact, I have seen it done, and even with a loop you would be hard pressed to identify the method of construction used.
Please understand, I do not agree with this type of deceptive behavior but I know it is occurring.
manwon said:
If they did the things you suggest then I think the impact would be pretty large , as long as price points remained.
The catch , IMO , is they simply won't be able to use the highest quality components and most precise/hand fitted like precision and keep those price price points. If import prices go up then I believe (domestic) people would rather buy domestic built. Additionally I don't think the resouces exist to support typical import scale production nor do I believe would 'they' spend the additional time and cost to procure them.
Lastly tho , keep in mind many 'Import' car and motorcycle and others ARE USA built and staffed now. That might monkey wrench the whole scenerio only that I doubt the Billiards market is big enough to warrant a relocation of production so it's probably a moot concern.
as far as China made (not Taiwan) production cues are concerned, I haven't been able to encounter yet a single one of good or even sound quality. the argument of "when", is still an enigma. same as that goes for China made Custom cues. I would say that the China Custom line would be of real question. since custom made cues rely on individual cuemakers and not a cuemaker company. the very essence of custom cue-making goes against the Chinaman's practice of Cheap and Fast Production. thereby, comprising Quality. I'm looking forward til that day when China made Production and Custom cues would be at parallel with that of American made cues. but for now, I would not dare touch a Made in China cue.
"if it's cheap and good, I buy. If it's cheap and bad, forget about it. If I were a multi-millionaire, I would have no second thoughts buying Efren's Custom Judd."
"if it's cheap and good, I buy. If it's cheap and bad, forget about it. If I were a multi-millionaire, I would have no second thoughts buying Efren's Custom Judd."
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manwon said:
I am not sure what you mean here.
As far as I know from my experience the largest cue manufacturers who have operations in China, Taiwan and in other Asian nations have been in business for over 30 years and construct cues in the same manner as cuemakers have done for the last 150 years from "traditional" to modern techniques.
We can certainly argue whether the average "Chinese" cue can compare to the average American cue but the fact is that just about every method of producing a cue is used in the production of Chinese cues.
For example the Chinese do full splice cues with veneers and super sharp points. They do fully cored cues. They make wood pin carom cues.
In some ways one could make an argument that the Chinese manufacturers of note are more well rounded than most cue makers.
Kao Kao for example makes pool cues, snooker cues, carom cues, and pyramid cues.
The phrase 'a jack of all trades and master of none' comes to mind as I think no one in the know would compare a Chinese cue to a Gina in terms of hit and overall quality.
But the truth of the matter is that if a professional pool player wanted to they could pretty much take any Chinese made cue and play world class with it. And they could do this without any more modification than changing the tip.
This week in Valley Forge in the Sterling Booth I watched many talented amateurs and pros running out the table effortlessly while using our 'made in China' cues off the rack.
These days the construction of the cues coming from China - that is the ones made in the experienced factories - is at a level where it is difficult to purchase a bad cue.
So the question remains will Chinese cues affect US custom cue makers?
The answer is yes and no.
For the most part the price range of Chinese cues is in the $50-$300 range. In this price class most buyers are not looking for custom and most small cue makers are not interested in selling cues at this price.
If anything a large amount of available decent cues for a relatively low price could entice more people to actually purchase a cue and serve to whet their appetite for "custom" cues.
I doubt that any Chinese cue maker is looking to "assault" the custom cue section of the marketplace.
A cue that is mass produced, either in the USA or elsewhere, will never supplant the one on one connection a cuemaker forms with his client. And the truth is, and those of you who know will affirm it, that once a person gets a taste of co-creating a cue and seeing it "born" that they rarely go back to production cues.
manwon said:
I have to ask what does it matter if the points are cut with CNC or not as long as they are sharp. If sharp points are desired then why should anyone care how they got to be sharp?
It is my opinion that doing it with CNC is more time consuming, at least in the initial setup, than by the splice or v-groove method.
I mean no one is whittling these points outs with a sharp stone. They all use routers and jigs and lathes so why should anyone care if a computer is involved. Someone had to figure out how to tell the computer to cut the wood properly and I bet there was an awful lot of adjustment and trial and error associated with it. What is the difference between someone who build a jig to cut perfect v-grooves every time and someone who programs a computer controlled milling machine to so the same thing?
Chinese cues
Until recently, I played with production or house cues off the rack. I found there were good players and bad players. This year I bought a custom here on AZB and found out they are in a class all by themselves. The Tex cue has something about it that is uncanny in the effect it has on me. The weight, balance and how I perform with it. My point being I don't think the Chinese are going to be able to match those guys here that make these high quality cues. Of course, there is the auto industry issue, My wife drives a honda, I drive a nissan, after a lifetime of US made cars, last being Chrysler which put a huge drain on my wallet. The ones we drive now outperform the US cars by far. So could they do it cues, maybe but, I doubt it. I figure the artists here in the US will maintain a market.
Until recently, I played with production or house cues off the rack. I found there were good players and bad players. This year I bought a custom here on AZB and found out they are in a class all by themselves. The Tex cue has something about it that is uncanny in the effect it has on me. The weight, balance and how I perform with it. My point being I don't think the Chinese are going to be able to match those guys here that make these high quality cues. Of course, there is the auto industry issue, My wife drives a honda, I drive a nissan, after a lifetime of US made cars, last being Chrysler which put a huge drain on my wallet. The ones we drive now outperform the US cars by far. So could they do it cues, maybe but, I doubt it. I figure the artists here in the US will maintain a market.
JB Cases said:
exactly my point. I'm still looking forward to see a Chinese master cue craftsman, who would dedicate most of his time and effort in creating a cue masterpiece (not just the design, but overall construction and craftsmanship). and I highly doubt if that chinese guy would sell his craft for a bargain. you can't bargain pure dedication, hardwork and rarity of such creation.
it would be wonderful to see if a chinese man would be interested to learn and create a cue, just for the love of it or simply "FOR ART's SAKE". and for those art seekers, it's been a pleasure doing business with you.
trustyrusty said:
just a thought rusty. let's say I have 2 cars (a brand new Toyota and a brand new Royce) which either one I am giving away for Christmas. If I would let you choose just one car, which car will you take and why?