TheThaiger
Banned
Oh dear. The USA will continue their long, slow descent into pooling oblivion with an attitude like this.
American pool is an anachronism. Modernise, USA, modernise.
Will the Team USA ever win another mosconi cup?
- Thread starter mrinsatiable
- Start date
Oh dear. The USA will continue their long, slow descent into pooling oblivion with an attitude like this.
American pool is an anachronism. Modernise, USA, modernise.
It was very obvious to me that the U.S. players have weaker fundamentals. Archer and SVB are pretty rock solid but the other 3 players weren't even close to the European players. I can't point to a specific example but as a group, the Europeans were definitely more committed to each and every shot than the U.S. players. I think the competition in the States is beginning to erode and guys have been able to get away with less than perfect fundamentals.
The problem that I really see is we have a lost generation of pool players here in the States. After the PBT implosion (and even maybe the IPT) a lot of great players just sort of disappeared. A lot of these guys would just now be closing in on 40 years of age and would be the prime years of their careers. I won't bother putting their names down out of respect for these people but I can think of 5-10 guys quickly just off the top of my head that are nowhere to be found.
If we didn't have SVB we would be in very desperate shape.
The problem that I really see is we have a lost generation of pool players here in the States. After the PBT implosion (and even maybe the IPT) a lot of great players just sort of disappeared. A lot of these guys would just now be closing in on 40 years of age and would be the prime years of their careers. I won't bother putting their names down out of respect for these people but I can think of 5-10 guys quickly just off the top of my head that are nowhere to be found.
If we didn't have SVB we would be in very desperate shape.
Saw,
This is exactly how I feel about the whole thing. I'm curious how Match Room came to control the Mosconi Cup? Did they buy the rights? And from whom? This whole thing is a farce. Sad thing is the name sake was a proud american. Far as I'm concerned they can have the Mosconi Cup. But the problem is the players will continue to take their all expense paid vacation and $5,000 appearance fee. And the Europeans will continue to throttle us Americans since pool in the USA is fragmented at best. Pool players in the rest of the world are held in high regard and it's an honor to have this as a profession. Not to mention Government and industry sponsorship. Today, it's sad to be an American Pool Player.
Regards,
Mark
just released my new article on my blog. thought might be interesting
looking forward to your opinions and thoughts!
http://realpooltalk.blogspot.com/2011/12/technique-matters.html
cheers
Marco
Marco, and Chris, respectively:
I 100% agree on both accounts. Like you said in your blog, Marco, the US Team consisted of a "hodge podge" (although you didn't use those words) of a motley crew of individuals, not core components of a team. If it's true that the U.S. Team didn't practice together and have breakfast together, as you noticed, Marco, then to me it's a glaring indicator that the U.S. Team wasn't prepared to go into the Mosconi Cup in the first place. Especially despicable would be if the players instead were out on their own each night, looking for "action," instead of practicing and strategizing for the subsequent day's competition.
Add to this that you had three journeymen (JA, Rodney, Shane), but two players that were noticeably weaker. Team Europe, on the other hand, consisted of all strong players that earned their spot on the team -- most of whom are journeyman (with the exception of Chris Melling, since this was his first event).
I also agree that the U.S. players need to get back to basics -- strengthening their fundamentals. Way too many errors were made on basic shots, and although the pressure of the Mosconi Cup is tremendous, the player has to have reliable fundamentals to play through that pressure. Even though I'm a big advocate of snooker fundamentals myself, I don't necessarily agree with TheThaiger that the U.S. players need to switch to snooker fundamentals. When you look at the world-class Chinese and European players (and including most members of Team Europe itself), all of them -- with few exceptions -- utilize the Lance Perkins pool fundamentals to a significant degree.
Finally, it is the team captain's job to instill a sense of teamsmanship among his players. It is the captain's responsibility to ensure that the players all do things together during the preparatory period before the Mosconi Cup, as well as during the event itself (in after-hours times). The U.S. Team FAILED in that endeavor. No slight to Charlie Williams himself (as a person), as I'm sure he did the best with the experience he has, but he was a poor choice for team captain. Among all the extremely-experienced pool stewards we have in the USA (e.g. Allen Hopkins, Mike Massey, Nick Varner, Kim Davenport, ...the list goes on), Charlie was chosen? It's been mentioned on these boards before, that one factor -- above all others -- played the crucial role in his selection, and that was cronyism. Although Charlie's contributions to pool are significant (e.g. Dragon Promotions, the reawakening of 14.1 as a competitive event, etc.), he's still an active player, not "sage" enough experience-wise, and at the time, unproven in his coaching abilities for a team. Again, no offense to Charlie, but he simply does not have the PRESENCE that, say, an Allen Hopkins or a Mike Massey has. Whether he likes it or not, though, a good chunk of the responsibility for the team's performance goes to the captain, and in this regard, he didn't live up to expectations.
I'm personally hoping that some significant lessons were learned this time, for next year's event. I'm hoping that 2012 will prove to be much, much better.
-Sean
TheThaiger
Banned
Ok, but pool in the UK is a minority sport to say the least. I doubt 1% of the population have even heard of the Mosconi cup, let alone know what sport it is. I doubt there are over 500 serious players in the entire country.
The simple fact of the matter is, we have better players than you do. Almost all of these started off playing snooker, before switching to pool as an 'easier' alternative. Our top boys play snooker, and they would absolutely MURDER your lot if they could be bothered playing pool full time. It'd be embarrassing. They are cueists on another level entirely.
The simple truth is pool NEEDS strong American players, and I don't think we'll see them unless you radically alter your approach to the game. Step one: a little humility. Step two: throw out the coaching manual and start from scratch. You need to go backwards to go forwards.
... If it's true that the U.S. Team didn't practice together and have breakfast together, as you noticed, Marco, then to me it's a glaring indicator that the U.S. Team wasn't prepared to go into the Mosconi Cup in the first place. ....
Hi Sean
I also read what you are mentioning here but I didn't write this in my article. Just to avoid misunderstandings
Cheers
Marco
TheThaiger
Banned
The "team" thing puzzles me. You were just outplayed by far, far better players. A one-off event like the Mosconi Cup is an irrelevance in the grand scheme of things. The point here is, why can't America produce great pool players any more? The answer is more complex than not having breakfast together or wrong choice of captain.
I'd forget about 2012 if I were you. I'd be writing off the next decade and looking to educate the following generation, starting with extensive training in fundamentals.
Hi Sean
I also read what you are mentioning here but I didn't write this in my article. Just to avoid misunderstandings
Cheers
Marco
You are correct, Marco, in that the above-quoted was a *comment* to your blog, and not something you wrote in your blog itself. My apologies to you for leading the readership to believe you wrote expressed that idea.
-Sean
THX Sean..
Absolutely ridiculous!!! There are so many GREAT American players of the past who did not have a snooker stance that EurUP will never catch up. In short, the snooker stance is very over rated when it comes to playing 9 ball, one pocket, and straight pool.
The US is not producing world class players because of the incentives to play pool in EurUP are much higher. It has nothing to do with the stance for crying out loud.
The great thing about the AZBilliards forums, is that one can view opinions from folks from all walks of life. Even extremists like you, Tim.
I think you know I'm a big advocate of fundamentals and body alignment / balance -- hence, snooker fundamentals. It just makes scientific and mechanical sense. However, to say that Team Europe's "far, far better" playership is due to snooker fundamentals -- as you've several times either inferred or outright stated -- is an indication of your extremist stance. None of the Team Europe players uses a snooker stance -- including Darren Appleton and Chris Melling, who actually have more of an English 8-ball ("Blackball") background, than they do snooker. And all of them use a Lance Perkins pool stance, not a snooker stance.
I think the problem with US players is manifold, with the most obvious being is has to do with the POOL CULTURE over here, more so than it does fundamentals. As Marco said in his blog, when he was over here, he noticed that pool is more of a smoky barroom pleasure activity, than being seen as a serious sport. Also, he never saw pool players practicing -- not "play practice" -- but drill practice to work on some aspect of one's game. This is for the most part true -- whether we Americans want to hear it or not. The truth hurts, and our team's performance at the Mosconi Cup only serves to drive that point solidly home.
Personally, I don't think your extremist stance of writing off the next decade to "learn snooker fundamentals" is going to fix the CULTURE issue. The fundamentals thing didn't play in 2009's Mosconi Cup, when the U.S. Team performed as a TEAM. The "better players" issue did make a difference though, as indicated by the slam-bang performance of Dennis Hatch. If Team USA is to have a hope against the increasing team performance of Team Europe, we *do* need to bring better players to the arena, including a better choice of team captain. (Although that latter part may be out of our hands, like it was this time around.)
-Sean
Thaiger,
I'm not going to go point for point with you. But I will say that, based on your proclamation above, you apparently put much more credence in a series of races to 6 than I do. I agree that the European players are very skillful sudden death tournament players and thrive on the glory of the trophy more than the Americans do. American players are more interested in after-hours play. This is their only chance to make a modest living. Americans have very little sponsorship and no government backing. Plus, the prize funds aren't there for the Americans to seriously consider tournament pool a viable living.
And don't get it twisted, the best of Europe and America are second and third to best of the Far East when it comes to rotational pool. Combine the best of Europe and America as the West Team they would get murdered by the best of the East Team.
Also, it's obvious that the Europeans would murder the Americans at Snooker since it's not a game we play in America. Same could be said for One Pocket where the Americans would murder the Europeans. If you don't agree please post what you want in a One Pocket challenge match and pick a European player and come to Las Vegas and let's get it on.
You can have your choice of any American player below:
1.) Frost
2.) Jones
3.) Owen
4.) Deuel
5.) Cardone
6.) Jersey Red
This is an exception but I will bet REALLY HIGH on this one
I will pick Roy Steffensen from Norway to play Jersey Red. That is the only one I am sure he can beat.
I will pick Roy Steffensen from Norway to play Jersey Red. That is the only one I am sure he can beat.
You got a bet only if we base the match on the theoretical concepts of the "Winning One Pocket" publication and assume Red would execute the various shots illistrated at the highest level..
:thumbup:
And you wonder why some people call you a lock artist?
A lock artist, me? Hmmmm, thank you.
I learned everything I know about locking it up from DA FISH! (from Norway)
Charlie did state in his after interview that team USA did eat and exercise together. But his statement after that made me very embarrassed to be a USA fan. He said that team Europe got the rolls and that is why they won. Huge sour grapes! Very poor sportsmanship in that statement. I was there for all four days and as far as the rolls go both teams got them. The European players took advantage of them and the US players didn't. And if Charlie was feeding this kind of garbage to the players while eating together.......instead of pumping them up and taking responsibility for the outcome of each match, it is no wonder that the results were what they were.
I would like to say that I kept an open mind on Charlie being chosen for captain as all I heard prior was based on other people's experiences. But this left a serious bitter taste in my mouth as I was leaving the room. How dare he take away from the playing ability the Europe team displayed in order to win this event.
I would like to say that I kept an open mind on Charlie being chosen for captain as all I heard prior was based on other people's experiences. But this left a serious bitter taste in my mouth as I was leaving the room. How dare he take away from the playing ability the Europe team displayed in order to win this event.
Me, too. I didn't feel that Charlie was the problem at all until he exhibited sportsmanship of the worst kind. I don't think he embarrassed either himself or American pool until he made comments that were ungracious and inappropriate.
Perhaps he felt he needed to cover for some of his "Dragon" players, who had a poor showing at the Mosconi Cup, and whose images as competitors affect his ability to market them. I'd rather think not, but what was his motivation for making comments that reflected so poorly on American sportsmanship? I just can't figure it out.
I think he should offer a public apology to Team Europe for his ungracious comments.