Willies game?

[JMB]

mosconi and ( 8 inches away )

mosconi and being only 8 inches away from any ball during his 125 ball run. if you believe that - then you probably believe trudeau is running the IPT because he likes pool. yes sure. i dont care what any article says it did NOT happen.

 

[bobroberts]

mosconi and being only 8 inches away from any ball during his 125 ball run. if you believe that - then you probably believe trudeau is running the IPT because he likes pool. yes sure. i dont care what any article says it did NOT happen.

Hey I dont know who you are butyour wrong. I used to see Willie all the time at JC's in Flushing N.Y. and in 14:1 he would walk around the table kidding JCs, son about shooting pool and he would never be out of line.It was just amazing how simple he would make it look.If you didn't play you had no idea how hard of an accomplishment that is.This is one time that the myth is definately not bigger then the man.
You shouldn't put Trudeau in the same sentence as Mosconni.He dosn't deserve it .

 

[Williebetmore]

mosconi and being only 8 inches away from any ball during his 125 ball run. if you believe that - then you probably believe trudeau is running the IPT because he likes pool. yes sure. i dont care what any article says it did NOT happen.

JMB,
No articles are being quoted. His biography mentions this feat, supported by a newspaper article with a similar story.

There is NO doubt that Willie's specialties were playing quickly (has documented run of 125 in 18 minutes) and playing close position. He routinely during his exhibitions would make a show of pointing to a dime sized spot, and park whitey right there; shot after shot - it was part of the "wow factor" of his exhibitions that he took great pains to develop. The guys that watched him play in his prime say no modern player tries for such close position on a routine basis, though some of the great one-pocket players are probably capable of similar feats. This description is from guys that played with him 8 hours a day for 2 or 3 years.

Further, it was this type of pinpoint position play that allowed (according to a description I heard from Irving Crane) Willie to continuously seek to park whitey right in the center of a semi-disturbed pack, and then just shoot his way out, moving the cue ball a precise inch or two at a time. Crane said this type of play was only possible for Mosconi, and that Irving and the rest of his contemporaries preferred to get to center table and pick off balls from the periphery.

The only player I have personally seen play this style of pool was Danny DiLiberto - it is an art form. If you have never seen Danny play straight pool, then you can have no idea what I'm talking about from my feeble description. I've seen it, and I'm not sure I believe it. I think we will just have to respectfully agree to disagree.

P.S. - that "man landing on the moon" stuff is a real crock - couldn't have happened.

 

[Gerry]

JMB,
No articles are being quoted. His biography mentions this feat, supported by a newspaper article with a similar story.

There is NO doubt that Willie's specialties were playing quickly (has documented run of 125 in 18 minutes) and playing close position. He routinely during his exhibitions would make a show of pointing to a dime sized spot, and park whitey right there; shot after shot - it was part of the "wow factor" of his exhibitions that he took great pains to develop. The guys that watched him play in his prime say no modern player tries for such close position on a routine basis, though some of the great one-pocket players are probably capable of similar feats. This description is from guys that played with him 8 hours a day for 2 or 3 years.

Further, it was this type of pinpoint position play that allowed (according to a description I heard from Irving Crane) Willie to continuously seek to park whitey right in the center of a semi-disturbed pack, and then just shoot his way out, moving the cue ball a precise inch or two at a time. Crane said this type of play was only possible for Mosconi, and that Irving and the rest of his contemporaries preferred to get to center table and pick off balls from the periphery.

The only player I have personally seen play this style of pool was Danny DiLiberto - it is an art form. If you have never seen Danny play straight pool, then you can have no idea what I'm talking about from my feeble description. I've seen it, and I'm not sure I believe it. I think we will just have to respectfully agree to disagree.

P.S. - that "man landing on the moon" stuff is a real crock - couldn't have happened.

I love to watch that tight position type of 14.1. The only player I can say I've watched up close play like that, is Allen Hopkins. I watched his match with Jack Calovito(sp). Jack explained to me the beauty of how Allen played tight like that. I'm damn glad I played in those tournys, even with no chance of winning, the guys like Jack would chat with you, knowing your trying to learn....Gerry

 

[Randy Bailey]

Willie

I was lucky enough to see Willie M. play an exibition in Atlanta in 1962. He run 282 balls. We were all wishing he would break his own record, but he didn't. That has been a long time ago, but I can still remember how smooth he was. Watching him play was one of my fondest memories.........Later, Beatle.........

 

[Craig Fales]

This thread really got me thinking about how much pool has become....Alot of players, me included just shoot long risky shots....instead of getting pinpoint shape, we focus more on being able to make a long shot than parking the cueball whereever we wanted it...Hmmm....*runs off to pratice position play*
________

 

[hemicudas]

I've heard all the stories about Mr. Mosconi, good and bad, but I want to know what he was like to watch in person? I never hear anything about where/how he practiced, who he learned from, did he teach any other world beaters? Basically, I'd like to know how he played?....I hear fast, fearless, with a pin point cueball.....I wish I had some video....Gerry

I don't know if he taught any other World Beaters, Gerry, but he was certainly taught by a "World Beater".

 

[cuejoey]

today Fats vs Mosconi Espn Classic

today wednesday 11 am. EST Fats vs Mosconi on Espn Classics.....

 

[sonia]

Willie Vs Ralph

I agree, 15 World Championships don't come easy....

WILLIE WON 9, THERE WERE NO CHAMPIONSHIPS DURING THE WAR, BUT WILLIE CLAIMED THEM ANYWAY. A REAL SWEETHEART IN EVERY WAY. ON THE TWO WORLD WIDE TOURS SPONSORED BY BRUNSWICK, WILLIE WON ZERO, RALPH WON BOTH.RALPH PLAYED ALL GAMES, WILLIE PLAYED ONLY STRAIGHT POOL.

 

[freddy the beard]

The Greatest Straight-Pool Player

(Excerpt from my upcoming book, The GosPool According To The Beard)

Willie Mosconi of Philadelphia. Willie gave three exhibitions at my neighborhood pool room, The Dragon Cue, in Chicago's Chinatown. It cost $1 to see him play, and the crowds were sparse. Mosconi's deal with the owner, Jimmy Wing, was that they would split the admission proceeds 50/50. He played three 200-point games in a three-day period. He ran 200 and out* the first game he played. When he reached 200 points, he stopped shooting and gave a trick-shot exhibition. The next day he ran 200 and out, and again stopped shooting at 200. The third day I was his opponent. He ran 160 and out. Then, more trick shots-- all of which he never missed. The tables were 4 1/2' x 9' Brunswick Anniversary tables with 5" pockets.
The climax of this story occurred about six weeks later. The Dragon Cue hosted another exhibition, this time with "Minnesota Fats." I asked Jimmy what deal had he made with Fatty. He excitedly told me he had made a terrific deal with Fats. All Jimmy had to do was give Fats all the money. Admission to see Fats was $2, twice the amount to see Mosconi. The place was jammed. They were climbing on each others' shoulders to see the show. Fats missed and missed and missed. His trick-shot show was deplorable; he hardly ever made one on the first try. He had to finally give up shooting a particular masse* trick-shot after about 15 or 20 attempts. He blamed the tables, the cloth, the cue ball, the chalk, anything -- and especially the air-conditioning. He would periodically look menacingly over at Jimmy Wing, as if it was all poor Jimmy's fault. Jimmy was slunk over into a corner, worrying that the crowd might lynch him if Fatty gave the word. Through it all, Fatty's confidence and cockiness suffered not a degree of loss. He was totally nonchalant over his miserable performance. It was at that point that I realized I was fortunate enough to be in the presence of real genius. I unashamedly became another Fats groupie from then on.

the Beard
Bank on, brother! Old School Pool.

 

[Gerry]

Great read Freddy!.....ANOTHER book?......I just purchased the first one last week!..........Gerry

 

[Williebetmore]

I don't know if he taught any other World Beaters, Gerry, but he was certainly taught by a "World Beater".

Hemi,
The picture is from Charlie Ursitti's collection. It was from the 1920 exhibition match between the world champion Ralph Greenleaf and the 7-year old child prodigy Willie Mosconi. I believe that this is the first time they met.

As Willie grew up in Philadelphia, and Ralph travelled extensively (based in NYC when not travelling), I do NOT believe that he was in any way Willie's instructor. In Willie's biography he describes his skills as completely self-taught (with the exception of what he picked up by observing good players - most of whom he thought he could beat even as a child).

He DOES however give Greenleaf his undying admiration and gratitude for the 2 long exhibition tours they did. Willie felt that their first tour was the factor that "took him to the next, highest level." Without that tour he's not sure he would have ever seen what it takes to get to the highest level.

 

[Williebetmore]

ON THE TWO WORLD WIDE TOURS SPONSORED BY BRUNSWICK, WILLIE WON ZERO, RALPH WON BOTH..

Sonia,
I think you are incorrect in your assertion that Greenleaf won both of their long exhibitions (which were actually both in the U.S., not worldwide). The first exhibition in 1933 was 107 games in 112 days in many cities. Greenleaf won 57 games to 50 for the 19 year old Willie (well before his prime). It was this tour however, where Willie really learned the tricks of the master, and at the end of the tour it was Willie winning something like 40 of the last 50 matches. Their second tour in 1944 (well past Greenleaf's prime) was 50 blocks of 125 points over 4 weeks in Kansas City (ALL witnessed by my dad's degenerate pool gambling buddies), Chicago, Detroit, and NYC. Willie won this tour 5,498 to 3,738 in totally dominating fashion. Despite Sonia's assertions, I can find no other evidence of any long matches between the two. There are several short matches between the two in championship play - Mosconi won all of these that I am aware of, but they were well past Greenleaf's prime (I have details if anyone is interested).

P.S. - I DEFINITELY want to call you some time if you'll allow.

 

[Williebetmore]

Close position

I think many posters (and especially JMB) have an incorrect notion of what close position really is (since there is basically NO opportunity to ever see it played). While Allen Hopkins does play an old-fashioned, classical type of straight pool, it is not the same as the old-timers describe for Willie.

Here is an excerpt from Willie's biography that explains how he learned about close position from Greenleaf during their first exhibition:

"I had always thought I was a better shotmaker than Greenleaf. But the reality is that the best players don't often have to make difficult shots. The key to pocket billiards is the playing of position, controlling the cue ball so that you leave yourself with an easy shot every time... And Greenleaf played position like no one else: there was no player in his league. He would often play whole racks without having to make a long shot.

The rule of thumb for the average player is that you want to leave yourself within 1-2 feet of the object ball. But Ralph cut that distance in half. He shortened his shots so that most of the time he would be shooting no more than 6-12 INCHES. He was usually able to leave the cue ball within 2 INCHES of where he wanted it....

I understood that the basic difference between his game and mine was that he played closer position. So I made up my mind to learn it. I watched his every move, (trying to guess his strategy and sequences). I began playing the game the way he did, and then tried to even improve on it by adding my own embellishments. Once I felt I was able to do that, I said to Ralph, "You belong to me now." He just laughed... but I began beating him then with regularity.""

In my opinion, due to the evil influence of 9-ball, this type of pool is becoming a lost art. There is huge risk to playing close position unless you are EXTREMELY good at it; the rewards of mastery are HUGE.

 

[Gerry]

True, but in Charlottesville Va, an old greek fella named Tommy Pappas ran 275 balls on Mosconi in a exhibition match. When Tommy got going with his slip stroke, you could just get mesmerized watching.

Can someone explaine the "slipstroke to me?....I kinda think I've seen it, but not really sure....Gerry

 

[JLW]

Can someone explaine the "slipstroke to me?....I kinda think I've seen it, but not really sure....Gerry

Ever seen Cowboy Jimmy Moore play?

 

[Andrew Manning]

True, but in Charlottesville Va, an old greek fella named Tommy Pappas ran 275 balls on Mosconi in a exhibition match. When Tommy got going with his slip stroke, you could just get mesmerized watching.

I was under the impression there wasn't any good pool being played within 30 miles of Charlottesville Va, at least not when I lived there. How long ago was this, and do you know if there's still a good pool hall in Charlottesville?

-Andrew

 

[Koop]

He was a friend of his fathers and came over to his house one evening. The kid loved to play pool and had his high run posted in a frame on the wall. I believe it was 31 balls in 14.1. They played that evening and everytime Willie got to 31 he would miss. That's the kind of guy he was.
Purdman

That is one of the coolest of things I have ever heard.
Almost like Michael Jordan coming over to shoot hoops and not making you feel like a complete imbecile.

I'm sure Mosconi had his moments but that is one very telling story.

Koop

 

[Gerry]

Ever seen Cowboy Jimmy Moore play?

Nope....I have seen some of the old timers when they practice stroke, then slide thier hand back on the last practice stroke, and fire.....Is that it?. What would be the advantage?.....Gerry

 

[TheConArtist]

I read that mosconi was trained by ralph greenleaf. At a tender age he was traveling with greenleaf across the country playing pool.

wasn't Ralph Greenleaf and Hal Houle road partners. Or i could be wrong. The last week or so i have been watching ESPN Classics and last tuesday i watched U.J Pucket and Babe Cranfield, i noticed Babe Cranfield aim with the aim and pivot or tuck and roll whatever they call these days.