Wisdom & Rationale For Pulling Threads

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I posted this in a thread earlier, I also wanted to say that I feel the same way about the deleted threads.

Original post:

I kept up on the thread until Saturday morning when I went out of town for the weekend. I never once made a post in it, as I felt I should keep out of it. I do want to say this, though. It was a terrible, terrible thread. I found myself completely embarrassed by the way Dave, a grown man, and at one time; a respected forum contributor and aspiring cuemaker conducted himself. To see a man of business speak to and treat his customers, potential customers, and peers in that way was just terrible. What's even worse, is Dave's reputation to new customers or forum members is nearly restored by that thread being deleted. No longer can they make an accurate judgement of character by searching his posts. My Sutton cue I won in a raffle probably doubled in value since that thread was deleted. It's a shame.
 
Like Tate, I don't think Dave Sutton is such a bad guy. He had achieved a solid record for customer satisfaction, so he has demonstrated that he knows how to do things the right way.

Obviously, something blew up in his situation to cause all the recent events where his latest customers were given the short end of the stick, or no stick at all, as it were.

Once in each of the last two removed threads, near the end, I said "Call me MADCAP, but I think Dave is gonna come through for his customers." Should I ask to be called this yet again? I think so, because I still believe he is going to take care of those who put their faith in him. I feel that Dave has a real problem turning his back on people who entrusted him with their hard-earned cash (I know, but read on).

How Dave has handled things is truly an abomination. The example he has provided us could be used in a business 101 class on 'how not to treat your customers'. I have a minor theory on this, however.

Whatever changed circumstances that occurred in Dave's life (new job, house, bills, etc.), left him financially strapped. While he may have fully intended to complete the obligations he had to his customers, he seems to have found himself short on money and/or time, and as a result, he dropped the ball.

Customers were now being neglected, responses from Dave became spotty, it was the perfect recipe for an "Anyone Heard From Dave Sutton" thread to be posted here, and it was.

The handful of Dave's last customers with whom he dropped the ball, all came together here to compare notes and then, basically, called him out on it. And, IMO, because of his poor (or lack of) responses, they rightfully began to call his reputation into question.

Now here's where my dime-store psychology lesson really takes flight, but I honestly believe what I'm about to say.

Like many testosterone-headed young men, Dave has an overabundance of pride that when publicly backed into an uncomfortable corner, as has been the case here, is typically met with an over reaction just like what we've seen.

Dave knows in his heart that his girlfriends behind, his house, motorcyle, lawyer Uncle, and all the rest, has zero to do with the subject at hand, that he took money for jobs that remain unfulfilled.

In my judgement, things simply went sideways for Dave and when his customers understandably became disgruntled, he couldn't deal with it properly and let his pride dictate his poor responses.

I have boys approximately his age, maybe a little older, and such emotions are not completely alien to me.

I will say though, the fact that Dave has been hanging around, engaging his customers in these threads, albeit in undiplomatic ways, tells me he's still looking to make things right. If it were otherwise, why not simply disappear?

It's not lost on Dave, how patently unfair it is for his customers to have sent him their money and, as yet, receive nothing in return. I maintain that he is basically a good guy who had things go sideways, and will now straighten it all out. After all, remember, he did achieve and maintain an excellent rep for quite some time.

My sincere advice to you, Dave; please, from this point on, be nice to your customers as you go through the process of squaring things with them.

Best,
Brian kc aka Madcap
 
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AzHousePro said:
I am out of town this weekend but I will look into the threads and find out.

Mike
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Hi Mike;

Can I ask, what was it you were going to look into?

Was it why the threads were removed, whether the threads could possibly be left open to public view (though maybe locked), or was it something else entirely?

Best,
Brian kc
 
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I don't mind if threads are deleted. But it would be nice if an explanation was given somehow. Explanations seem to be the proper thing to do. Instead, decisions are made and we never know why. Seems we should be given some consideration and common courtesy, as we are members of this forum and all participate in it.
 
Hey Trig;

Another consideration is that, for example, I spent close to 45 minutes on the two posts I wrote in this thread and if for whatever reason the mods decided to remove this thread, I'm left with a feeling of having wasted my time.

This has happened to me a few times and, I'm sure, plenty of other azers have experienced this, as well.

This is why I started this thread, hoping to get some clarification on how these things are decided and perhaps exchanging some ideas on possible options other than simply blowing up a thread, never to be seen again.

I'm with you, though, if a thread must be dynomited, it would at least be nice to know why...

Best,
Brian kc
 
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Kickin' Chicken said:
...Another consideration is that, for example, I spent close to 45 minutes on the two posts I wrote in this thread and if for whatever reason the mods decided to remove this thread, I'm left with a feeling of having wasted my time.

This has happened to me a few times and, I'm sure, plenty of other azers have experienced it, too...

Best,
Brian kc
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This is a very valid point.
 
Brian. I agree. It sucks to spend time on a post just to have It deleted.

However... With that being said your 2 novels were not helpful or heartfelt in any way. Not like the last one you wrote. I can handle a negative post against me as long as it's done in a respectful manner. I am not innocent in this mess. I have a big mouth but I have done great and honest business for a very long time. Being behind does not make me a theif. Ups damaging my items also does not make me a theif.

To date Mario has had 3 thread pulled claiming I stole from him. When we all know that is not the case. I have done everything asked by him. He wanted the ups claim made out directly to him. And it was. Had he returned the entire package to me damaged or not he would have receieved a full refund. He didn't for a reason. He has dodged the question why since day 1.

I strongly am starting to believe by actions that he damaged the saw by himself and is looking for a way to recoup a portion of what he paid. I guess he thought I would just take his word and refund him immediately. No happening. I would never offer a partial refund for this product. It is a jig that required mounting drilling tApping and tweaking or it is useless for it's intend. Mario tried for 2 weeks to buy just the jig and the blade. I declined his offer everytime. I explained it wasn't a jig to me taken off and put back onto any saw when needed. It was mounted tweaked and stayed. Finally he called me on the phone and said I'll just take it. At that time I told him he should just drive down and pick it up. It was about an hour from him. He declined and paid 150$ shipping. Totally his call.

To save paypal fees he dropped me a check in the mail. The saw went out the day his check cleared. If I wanted to steal from him he never would have recieved the saw.

There is also the question on why I didn't respond immediately at times. Well none of them called me or emailed me directly. As stated before I do not frequent azbilliards anymore. Don't have the time. So if i get pmed here i wont always get it same day Everytime Mario called me he called me from a blocked number. I do not answer blocked numbers at all. However if he left me a message I responded back ASAP. I make it no secret here I work at night and sleep in the day. So sometimes my phone is shut off during the day so I can sleep.
 
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mods?

Bump, hoping for some valuable input from our mods (see posts 23 & 15).

Thanks!

Best,
Brian kc
 
In a nut shell:

Too often, people cannot resist the urge to dogpile. They see the spectacle of an open flame and feel compelled to add fuel to the fire.

You have people starting threads about how they were ripped off etc..and find that they filed claims via ups etc.

Once a claim was filed, I don't see what the issue is or why is is being dragged out in public here.

People also have some misconceptions about how much time is comsumed by AZB for some of us. I do not intend to sift through hundreds of posts editing out stuff just so the curious can view the spectacle.


The thread in question had no value. There was no content worth sharing and was trash through and through.

Then there are the ones who would claim censorship.
Let's be very clear here...this is a private business. Everyone here is a guest.

If I think you are hurting AZB, I will act.
I don't think I should need to explain every detail of "why" because frankly, if the people asking why don't get it already, they still won't after wasting my time with an explaination.

As far as the other altruistic posters who feel they are protecting new posters from the evils of whomever...save it.

If you really want to help insure anyone is treated right, have them read the guidlines that are posted and direct them to a reputable escrow service.


Dave
 
The lesson is keep your posts short so you don't mind if they get lost. I am probably the most notorious long winded poster on here and way too much of my "time" is now completely gone without any record of it due to threads being deleted.

Be brief, to the point and let it float on the wind.

John - trying to keep posts under 5000 words.
 
Mr. Wilson said:
In a nut shell:

Too often, people cannot resist the urge to dogpile. They see the spectacle of an open flame and feel compelled to add fuel to the fire.

You have people starting threads about how they were ripped off etc..and find that they filed claims via ups etc.

Once a claim was filed, I don't see what the issue is or why is is being dragged out in public here.

People also have some misconceptions about how much time is comsumed by AZB for some of us. I do not intend to sift through hundreds of posts editing out stuff just so the curious can view the spectacle.


The thread in question had no value. There was no content worth sharing and was trash through and through.

Then there are the ones who would claim censorship.
Let's be very clear here...this is a private business. Everyone here is a guest.

If I think you are hurting AZB, I will act.
I don't think I should need to explain every detail of "why" because frankly, if the people asking why don't get it already, they still won't after wasting my time with an explaination.

As far as the other altruistic posters who feel they are protecting new posters from the evils of whomever...save it.

If you really want to help insure anyone is treated right, have them read the guidlines that are posted and direct them to a reputable escrow service.


Dave
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Dear Dave -

I am upset by your cavalier attitude about Dave Sutton. I see altruism is not encouraged on this forum. It is sad that escrow is your answer for this problem. That is a good plan for the future but does not address the situation now.

I am out $500 and my reputation has been attacked. Please remove his false statement from my itrader report. It is only fair.

I am hoping that AZ will do the right thing.

Best Wishes,
 
Ken, you see....the problem with slinging crap, sometimes it gets on you too.

I have yet to see or hear anything more compelling in your side of the story than his.

Have you something that is so convincing that I should reconsider?
 
Ken. Your reputation was tarnished when you agreed to the higher end cue at a set price but only if I sent it to you without payment. When I offered to pay escrow that still wasn't good enough. I could tell by your voice and attitude you had bad intentions with our deal. I am very sorry you cue got broken in shipping. I wish our deal went smoothly. However when you try to steal from me now I have a big problem. You should have been taken care of a long time ago. I tried everything in my power to make you happy.

That is the reason you recieved negative itrader. You brought it on yourself. You left Meg itrader for me after I gave you many options to square up. I was willin to let your deceitfulness go until then.
 
Mr. Wilson said:
In a nut shell:

Too often, people cannot resist the urge to dogpile. They see the spectacle of an open flame and feel compelled to add fuel to the fire.

You have people starting threads about how they were ripped off etc..and find that they filed claims via ups etc.

Once a claim was filed, I don't see what the issue is or why is is being dragged out in public here.

People also have some misconceptions about how much time is comsumed by AZB for some of us. I do not intend to sift through hundreds of posts editing out stuff just so the curious can view the spectacle.


The thread in question had no value. There was no content worth sharing and was trash through and through.

Then there are the ones who would claim censorship.
Let's be very clear here...this is a private business. Everyone here is a guest.

If I think you are hurting AZB, I will act.
I don't think I should need to explain every detail of "why" because frankly, if the people asking why don't get it already, they still won't after wasting my time with an explaination.

As far as the other altruistic posters who feel they are protecting new posters from the evils of whomever...save it.

If you really want to help insure anyone is treated right, have them read the guidlines that are posted and direct them to a reputable escrow service.


Dave
Click to expand...



Dave I think you cleared this up for everyone and very clearly stated you point, if this is the stand that the forum leaders are going to take I would suggest doing away with the wanted / for sale section of this forum.

I think by doing so it would certainly make less work for those who have to take the time and validate the problems that arise very very frequently of late. Things have gotten pretty bad lately Dave, don't know if it is the economy or the fact that some people just feel things out before they take advantage of other forum members.

I kinda think much more could be done and I do not think it necessary to use the tone that you used in the post above. Dave you may not like my comments, but I feel this is a subject that needs to be aired and not forced to go away by using a threatening tone.

Some of us forum members do care enough about this subject and our new members to try and set things straight. If those who could make a difference would step up and do something about some of these situation's there would be no need for the forum membership to drag each other through the mud.

JIMO
 
People need to use an escrow service.

When people opt to use the cheapest avenues available, whether buying or shipping and offer excuses about how they've always done it...until they feel wronged....next thing you know they want everyone on their side and want to use AZB as their weapon.

Then all the sudden they want their private dealings tried in a court of public opinion.

I'm really not that sympathetic when it goes that far.

I also don't feel this is the place for a public hanging based on no facts presented at all...as if.
 
Mr. Wilson said:
People need to use an escrow service.

When people opt to use the cheapest avenues available, whether buying or shipping and offer excuses about how they've always done it...until they feel wronged....next thing you know they want everyone on their side and want to use AZB as their weapon.

Then all the sudden they want their private dealings tried in a court of public opinion.

I'm really not that sympathetic when it goes that far.

I also don't feel this is the place for a public hanging based on no facts presented at all...as if.
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Escrow services are certainly a worth wild method of doing business and in most cases they work very well, but not always. I have a local customer who bought a Southwest here on the forum and used the escrow service of another respected forum member. When the cue arrived there were a number of problems with the cue that were not described and not caused by shipping, the person doing escrow had already sent the money to seller before the buyer received and could evaluate the cue. The seller basicly told the buyer that he would not refund the money, which he never did and the person who provided the escrow service said there was nothing they could do about it.

Is that how escrow is suppose to work? Should the money be sent before the buyer gets the cue? This problem occured a while ago, the buyer was not the type who would cause the kind of drama it would have taken to resolve the problem and he requested I also not put the information out there.

I personally think that when a person repeatedly has problems something should be done. It may just take someone with a little authority to contact the buyer and seller privately so that some type of proof can be provided and the guilty party exposed.

If you do not believe what I have written above contact me and I will supply proof, along with names.

Oh and by the way, I will not provide names or any further details to other forum members, my post is not designed to create additional problems only to bring up something that happened and was never corrected.

Thanks for your reply Dave.
 
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Craig. You are a great azer. Contributing constantly and for the lost part always respectful. I hold your opinion very highly
 
manwon said:
Escrow services are certainly a worth wild method of doing business and in most cases they work very well, but not always. I have a local customer who bought a Southwest here on the forum and used the escrow service of another respected forum member. When the cue arrived there were a number of problems with the cue that were not described and not caused by shipping, the person doing escrow had already sent the money to seller before the buyer received and could evaluate the cue. The seller basicly told the buyer that he would not refund the money, which he never did and the person who provided the escrow service said there was nothing they could do about.

Is that how escrow is suppose to work? Should the money be sent before the buyer gets the cue? This problem occured a while ago, the buyer was not the type who would cause the kind of drama it would have taken to resolve the problem and he requested I also not put the information out there.

I personally think that when a person repeatedly has problems something should be done. It may just take with a little authority contacting the buyer and seller privately so that some type of proof can be provided and the guilty party exposed.

If you do not believe what I have written above contact me and I will supply proof, along with names.

Oh and by the way, I will not provide names or any further details to other forum members, my post is not designed to create additional problems only to bring up something that happened and was never corrected.

Thanks for your reply Dave.
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No, escrow is supposed to be a service that withholds the money until the escrow service determines that the product is as advertised.

In cues the escrow service should be chosen based on their ability to be trusted by both parties to accurately judge the condition of the cue before releasing any funds to the buyer.

If the escrow service allowed a cue to pass through which was not as advertised then they should have to eat the cue and refund the buyer's money. Otherwise the service was not provided and is worthless.
 
manwon said:
Escrow services are certainly a worth wild method of doing business and in most cases they work very well, but not always. I have a local customer who bought a Southwest here on the forum and used the escrow service of another respected forum member. When the cue arrived there were a number of problems with the cue that were not described and not caused by shipping, the person doing escrow had already sent the money to seller before the buyer received and could evaluate the cue. The seller basicly told the buyer that he would not refund the money, which he never did and the person who provided the escrow service said there was nothing they could do about.

Is that how escrow is suppose to work? Should the money be sent before the buyer gets the cue? This problem occured a while ago, the buyer was not the type who would cause the kind of drama it would have taken to resolve the problem and he requested I also not put the information out there.

I personally think that when a person repeatedly has problems something should be done. It may just take with a little authority contacting the buyer and seller privately so that some type of proof can be provided and the guilty party exposed.

If you do not believe what I have written above contact me and I will supply proof, along with names.

Oh and by the way, I will not provide names or any further details to other forum members, my post is not designed to create additional problems only to bring up something that happened and was never corrected.

Thanks for your reply Dave.
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The payment shouldn't be released from escrow to the seller until the purchaser has received the cue, inspected it and accepted it. I'm not so sure the escrow service needs to see or receive the cue at all

Escrow is an added extra step to protect the buyer. It's too expensive for most low level transactions.

Chris
 
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