no doubt, the women will continue to get better and i can't wait to see the look on some of the guy's faces
Women in U.S. Open
- Thread starter Grilled Cheese
- Start date
no doubt, the women will continue to get better and i can't wait to see the look on some of the guy's faces
I am pretty sure that Gabe Owen does not want to give Kelly Fisher the seven in a race to 50.
I guarantee you he does not win every time doing so.
After Kelly plays him a few times she won't need the seven IMO.
Anyway I say "pretty sure" because I heard a rumor that Gabe Owen declined to play Kelly giving up a little spot like this. It's just a rumor so it may not be true at all. Just some thing I heard.
Kelly does have a fairly strong backer who is well known around North Carolina. He is easy to find and any male pro can get in touch with him to arrange a game with Kelly for a few jellybeans. From what I understand Kelly has booked some decent winners against top players with this backer making the games.
I don't know the details and I wouldn't tell them if I did unless it was already common knowledge. However I suppose that anyone who really wants to know can find out.
Last I heard though Kelly wasn't ducking anyone, just her backer wants to make games that reflect her "much weaker skill level", cuz, you know, she's a girl and all...and they can't play as good as "the men" no way no how.
Okay, now we know you're not a sucker.
So you are saying maybe a women can make it half way, or into the final 128 in a full 256 field. Is that correct?
How about I propose a new bet for you. I will bet that at least one women makes it three quarters of the way, to the final 64 players. Even money - $100. Is that good enough for you, oh master handicapper?
Maybe you want some odds, my few weak playing women against all your champion men! My gut feeling is that you are really a lock artist who wouldn't bet two big dogs could whip one little one.
I also think the only posts on here you have read clearly are your own.
Lock artist?
Just because I called out your sucker bet doesn't mean I'm handicapping. Jeesh! Take it easy man.I think that the most of the women will have a hard time making it 4 rounds. Jasmin is different. She's the best female player in my opinion - even better than Allison. Jasmin has placed well in a number of men's tournaments. She's elite among the women.
Correct me if I am wrong, but that is the biggest win for any woman in a men's tournament ever? I think so.
Impressive. But put into perspective, ONE woman, getting 3rd place in ONE men's tournament is one thing. It's a tremendous leap to the statement "the women can play with the men" which is a common belief of many that the women can play as well as the men. Which is false. At least for the time being. I don't know what the future holds.
That's what I was busting on in this thread. Unfortunately, a lot of people have been picking on single comments I made, taking them out of context and then attacking me. Even to the extent of creating entirely new arguments and "battles" where they pit me as their opponent as if I said other things. The strawman is a favorite tactic of many it seems.
I must have offended too many people in the custom cue mythology thread. Many of the same names keep coming around to take their shots. I guess I'm on their list. :thumbup:
I think it's like all sports the pool of feamle players is much smaller than the pool of men players. In the USA you have for argument sake the biggest pool of football players and no country in the world could rival you at that game. Same goes for Canada and hockey or Brazil and soccer. Assuming you have one excellent women for every 50 or 60 excellent men, those are the odds (1:50) that she can come out on top of a field of the top men and women pool players. It's not the large disparity in speed its overwhelming odds. SOmetime Tigger woods doesn't make the cut, if Jasmine doesn't make the top half in the US open it doesn't mean anything, if she doesn't make it in the next 15 US Open then i stand corrected.
I'm not sure if the rankings on the WPBA site are correct or have been updated. I know that PoolDawg paid my entry for this years US Open and I know they had to discuss it with the WPBA before doing so. I'm not sure what the details are.
Jeanette is due somewhere around that time, so that could be the reason. I really haven't checked the rankings in a long time.
Sarah
Jeanette is due somewhere around that time, so that could be the reason. I really haven't checked the rankings in a long time.
Sarah
Really, the point about the lack of a full field kills bolo's entire argument. ANY player filling those slots beats getting a bye.
256 is a lot of slots. Any player you've even remotely heard of will be able to get in no problem, unless they drag their heels and wait until the last second to put up their fee.
Logically, the only way a woman will "weaken" the field is if a more-skilled male player wanted to get in, but the field was full. So you could look at it as a female "stealing" his "slot". But right now, with a less than full field, that is not a problem.
If it ever becomes a problem, that skilled male player will just have to learn to post his entry a little quicker next time.
It's a bridge we'll cross when we come to it.
256 is a lot of slots. Any player you've even remotely heard of will be able to get in no problem, unless they drag their heels and wait until the last second to put up their fee.
Logically, the only way a woman will "weaken" the field is if a more-skilled male player wanted to get in, but the field was full. So you could look at it as a female "stealing" his "slot". But right now, with a less than full field, that is not a problem.
If it ever becomes a problem, that skilled male player will just have to learn to post his entry a little quicker next time.
It's a bridge we'll cross when we come to it.
Bola Ocho...Oh, now it's ONLY "highly unlikely"! In your opening BS statements it was completely impossible...because the women simply can't play as well as the men! Why are you backpedaling? 
Why don't you step up and take some of the bets being offered...since the women have NO chance! How could you lose!
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Why don't you step up and take some of the bets being offered...since the women have NO chance! How could you lose! Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Saying the women "can play with the men" and saying "they play as well as the men" are two different statements, with entirely different meanings. It was you who construed the first to mean the same thing as the second.
I can't find any posts where someone says the top women play as good as the top men. You are arguing a point that no one is refuting. But you seem to have a need to keep repeating it. It appears useless to try to communicate with you. You have taken a position and refuse to budge, even in the face of some very good arguments refuting your position.
You're a very stubborn man who can only see one side of an argument. That's unfortunate - for you!
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I remember back when I first started playing in 92 that I was told that the women didn't play as well as the men, and that was overwhelming true on a larger scale. I think that the women's high run in tournament play was 17 (straight pool), and their personal best in practice wasn't much better than that.
Fast forward two decades and the atmosphere has much changed. Jeanette and Jasmin are stringing together 100+ ball runs. Jasmin and Ga Young are running racks in competition, and doing it in a fashion not consistent of the style of what I saw women shooting in the early 90's. There is change happening because of those few women that changed their practice routines, put the pressure on themselves playing opponents that weren't comfortable, and weren't the norm.
There is a certain amount of seasoning that must occur in every stage of an advanced pool player's career. For me it started with doing well in weekly tournaments. Then I started playing semi pro events and learned what it's like to get in the finals and pull it out. There is a lot of "getting over yourself" and what's going on around you, what this means, etc, to get to the place when you're winning events. I then channeled that seasoning to winning titles - the tournaments the meant the most to me.
Where this really came into play is when I was playing well at our Swanee Memorial event we have here. All the best players come out for this, 200+. I drew Victor Castro (Ignacio), one of the local filipinos, who had won it the year before. He had always been in the pool room from the beginning of my playing, and had always been a great player. I was beating him 8-6, then ended up winning 9-6. I almost hyperventilated on the last 3 balls. For me, it had been drilled in my head that I am not supposed to win, that for all my previous match seasoning, I almost couldn't hack it. Playing him was different, not only for the fact I wasn't supposed to win, but adjusting to the kind of game he played vs. what I had always played against.
There is something to that! To continue to gain experience, adapt to the differences of how the men play, you have to keep playing them. There is an adaption that is happening on the larger scale right now too. You've seen the changes already with some of our star players who are continuing to do it full time and put themselves out there monetarily and with all their heart to compete in those sometimes unfamiliar settings. They are for-going their ego and are willing to step up to get beat 2 and out, so that maybe next time or the time after they don't - just like how we all started originally. Some have already taken this and won Joss events like Karen and Allison.
I was once talking to a friend of mine who I first met when he was 13. By the age of 16, he was a good shortstop level, playing really great, after those 3 years. I asked him how he got that good so fast and he said,
"It never occurred to me that I couldn't be as good as Efren."
The difference is that from the start of my playing, I've been told of all the things that I couldn't do, or more appropriately, what my gender hasn't done. I've worked a little harder to overcome what I believed, developing a stroke that I believe can get me there.
This change is happening, and letting the women in the US Open is another step for the women to be able to level the playing field. It takes time for this to take place, and more than just a handful of women trying to to show any real results.
Fast forward two decades and the atmosphere has much changed. Jeanette and Jasmin are stringing together 100+ ball runs. Jasmin and Ga Young are running racks in competition, and doing it in a fashion not consistent of the style of what I saw women shooting in the early 90's. There is change happening because of those few women that changed their practice routines, put the pressure on themselves playing opponents that weren't comfortable, and weren't the norm.
There is a certain amount of seasoning that must occur in every stage of an advanced pool player's career. For me it started with doing well in weekly tournaments. Then I started playing semi pro events and learned what it's like to get in the finals and pull it out. There is a lot of "getting over yourself" and what's going on around you, what this means, etc, to get to the place when you're winning events. I then channeled that seasoning to winning titles - the tournaments the meant the most to me.
Where this really came into play is when I was playing well at our Swanee Memorial event we have here. All the best players come out for this, 200+. I drew Victor Castro (Ignacio), one of the local filipinos, who had won it the year before. He had always been in the pool room from the beginning of my playing, and had always been a great player. I was beating him 8-6, then ended up winning 9-6. I almost hyperventilated on the last 3 balls. For me, it had been drilled in my head that I am not supposed to win, that for all my previous match seasoning, I almost couldn't hack it. Playing him was different, not only for the fact I wasn't supposed to win, but adjusting to the kind of game he played vs. what I had always played against.
There is something to that! To continue to gain experience, adapt to the differences of how the men play, you have to keep playing them. There is an adaption that is happening on the larger scale right now too. You've seen the changes already with some of our star players who are continuing to do it full time and put themselves out there monetarily and with all their heart to compete in those sometimes unfamiliar settings. They are for-going their ego and are willing to step up to get beat 2 and out, so that maybe next time or the time after they don't - just like how we all started originally. Some have already taken this and won Joss events like Karen and Allison.
I was once talking to a friend of mine who I first met when he was 13. By the age of 16, he was a good shortstop level, playing really great, after those 3 years. I asked him how he got that good so fast and he said,
"It never occurred to me that I couldn't be as good as Efren."
The difference is that from the start of my playing, I've been told of all the things that I couldn't do, or more appropriately, what my gender hasn't done. I've worked a little harder to overcome what I believed, developing a stroke that I believe can get me there.
This change is happening, and letting the women in the US Open is another step for the women to be able to level the playing field. It takes time for this to take place, and more than just a handful of women trying to to show any real results.
You're making the filler argument that others have been. Hey, can't fill the field? Bring in the bench!
This is a very good post. What you've described also happens to men vs. men and women vs. women. When an rookie enters the pro scene, they end up playing guys they idolized, or have always viewed with great respect as great players. Which they are. But there's that "I can't believe I'm playing him" stuff going on upstairs. This causes unnecessary losses. Almost self-defeating talk. It's terrible to talk one's self out of winning. Champions not only believe they can win, they know they can win. They respect their opponent, but go for the jugular. This is what I've been told by people who have been through it. After a few tournaments, and various matches - they get used to playing these big names, these interesting characters, and against that kind of play. There's also the environment and conditions. Ultimately, it was all about them being able to actually produce their own game in matches unhindered by all their psychological stuff.
I can imagine that this effect is 2x as bad for women when they play men because of all the "men are better than women" ..another added layer. But there's a plus side to that. There's no pressure from the standpoint that you are expected to win. Also, the idea that you are not suppose to win can and should be channeled into fuel to prove that wrong.
One thing I observed about the women going up against the men, was that the women were really, really gunning to take down the men pros.
However, women still lose most often to men. Aside from the psychological stuff, there's the matter of raw skill. That too is said to be a matter of seasoning.
I agree that playing at a higher level does increasing skill level. But by how much? I don't fully buy this perspective because there have been ways women could push the limits without interaction with men. A woman can push herself to run 150 balls in 14.1, or race the 9-ball ghost. I don't believe that the only way to get such motivation or pressure is strictly by playing men.
I think if they play with the men more often, they're going to go up. As stated, the women have closed the gap. But I'm not sure if they will equal. I can't explain why. Only that it's been my observation that women are not as good as men in other sports as well. They don't have that same level of excellence. The women don't even compete equally with the men in curling. Curling! I watched some of the Winter Olympic curling. The men would make shots that were much higher level. They would pull off shots that are routine for them that ladies would often botch or have to treat as a high difficulty shot (just like in pool) The ladies aren't bad, but they don't have the same high level excellence.
These are skills based items that have nothing to do with the interaction with an opponent. I guess that strict discipline, practice and training equal to the men would appear to be the path to achieving an equal skill set. Well, a lot of the women pros have pretty stringent practice routines. They take their development very seriously. More so than many men, yet they don't exceed those men in skills. Why? Is it a matter of talent? I think those women have natural talent to be the pros that they are. They wouldn't have made it that far without it. So can't be that.
I don't know the reasons, I can only speculate. I'm not a scientist, shrink, doctor or researcher. To make matters worse, this area of study is in a sort of dark age. It's politically incorrect to search for differences. It's in fashion to search for similarities. Equality is automatically assumed and even promoted regardless of the facts. Inequality is blamed on segregation or discrimination. I don't care about views, values, politics, culture - I seek the truth. Whatever it is, it is. The beauty of truth, is that it always leads to improvement. If we could discover why women lag behind men in these areas, they could constructively improve.
There might be more to the physical equation than people think. I say that because some of the women pros are extremely fierce competitors. You want to talk about determination and focus? I think some of them have hard core mental games. No problem there. Cue ball weighs 6oz, cues weigh around 19oz...you'd think stroking the cue would be all the same for women. Maybe it is?
Time will tell.
A test to determine if it's just a matter of environment could happen if a female player came around, a young one in teens, that is showing great talent. Like Jasmin, but ..... she was only interested in playing with the men. No women's tour. No playing other women ever. Strictly play men and always playing good players. With the goal to be a great among them. The level she has to compete against is always the men. Would she develop into a professional with the skill set comparable to the men?
Good question. If that's true. If it happened. Then it would turn out that the creation of women's and ladies tours actually hurt women. Held them back. Stunted their progress by limiting their exposure to themselves. Not just in pool, but in many other sports and games. Remember, women's leagues, tours etcetera were made to keep men out. Not the other way around. Just like a B tournament. The A players didn't create B tournaments because they didn't want the weaker B players around. B tournaments are created to protect B players from the better A players so the B can win.
This is a great point. I have been lurking for a while on this forum, just browsing through opinions. This statement motivated me to comment.
I think you have made some very valid points. And I agree, people just want to call you out for being a misogynistic person for doing so. People do not want to allow people to express their opinions, unless they are in agreement with current politically correct standards. That said, all you did was state your opinions, which you have every right to do.
I have noticed you mentioned some women have a chance of winning some matches. Of course they do. But I'm with you - overall they simply do not play as well as the men. That's just my opinion too. Maybe we will be proved wrong. People coming on here to propose that you offer 100-1 odds on Jasmine or Allison placing high just shows their lack of understanding of your point.
I see no problem with Barry opening the event for women to play in. He is a promoter and businessman and just wants to create buzz for his event, which he is doing. He also wants to collect more entry fees so that he can hopefully pay the winner, instead of putting them on a payment plan. Forgive me, I love this event and I respect its long running career, but I don't believe players expect to get on a payment plan for winning. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong, this is just what I have heard, and I am not trying to deviate from the topic at hand.) If anyone truly believes that Barry expects a woman to win or even make the final 8, then I believe you are mistaken.
From what I have seen, many events are open to women to play in. And some of the top tier do try, and some do well. I am not under the assumption that ALL the women are not capable of winning a short/medium race in 9-ball. However, I do agree that overall the women play at a much lower level than the men, and if anyone carefully watched their matches they would see this disparity. Outside of the top 3 or 4 mentioned continually on this post, none of the other women stand a chance in a top mens event. From what I understand, this is Bola's point. This is also why the top 3 or 4 dominate the rest of the women on tour. Of course they will never say this, but the top 3-6 players need the other 58 on tour so they can make a living. With the men, the mix of who can win any given event is much wider.
Many people debate that the women on tour can hang with the men. Bola is just asserting his opinion that they cannot. I happen to agree with him, and I sympathize that he knows people will label him as sexist for saying so. And as his quote above indicates, this is the problem with our society. Just because I agree, does not make me a hater of women. I love and respect women, and I agree they deserve the equal opportunity to participate. I can't explain why they don't play as well, maybe one day they will.
my flabber would be gasted!
well, i know one thing. i certainly hope that a girl doesn't win the open.
the horror, the horror!
it would be cataclysmic ... the law of gravity would be repealed, lions would lie down with lambs, mideast peace would break out, oceans would recede and california would balance its budget!
please kneel down with me, brothers and sisters, we can't take a chance on the end to life as we know it!
sunny
well, i know one thing. i certainly hope that a girl doesn't win the open.
the horror, the horror!
it would be cataclysmic ... the law of gravity would be repealed, lions would lie down with lambs, mideast peace would break out, oceans would recede and california would balance its budget!
please kneel down with me, brothers and sisters, we can't take a chance on the end to life as we know it!
sunny
wow you decided to make your first post? just great.
the OP says its bad for women to play in the us open. they dont play at the males level. and if fact b/c they are women they cant play at that level. he at first says that opportunity and training have no bearing then recants this (which is good since its obviously true). then admits that women have stepped up their game and closed the gap somewhat. but then just his own opinion now, no evidence to back him up, that women will never be able to compete equally with men just b/c of gender. and you agree. yes that is a misogynistic attitude. you cant say that then finish up your post by saying you respect women. wow.
brian
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I dont think anybody said it would be bad, just that it is unlikely. Or highly unlikely.
This is why people cannot discuss this topic - and other similar topics. As soon as you state an un-politically correct opinion, people use fallacious arguments to distort your point and make you look like a "hater"
I do not think it would be bad in any way if a woman won the event, or if the entire final 16 was all women. In fact, I hope they all do very well. I just agree with Boca that this is unlikely, and people who have been arguing for years that the WPBA players can successfully compete with the men will finally have a chance to see if their point is true. There are 2 sides to every point of view, why does having an opinion on this make you such a bad person?
Like Boca, I have met many people who are under the impression that the 64 women on tour can compete with the top 64 men on a regular, competitive basis. If I don't agree with that, why does that make me a bad person?
u can say that it is unlikely that a female will win the us open. no one would call you a hater. you can say that right now there are few if any female pros who can consistently out perform male pros. that also does not make one a hater. however saying that female pros will never be able to play at the same level as male pros just b/c they are female is misogynistic. this topic is not about being politically correct or incorrect. if u r gonna say that then u have to back it up with facts. everyone is entitled to their opinions. if that is how u and bola feel that is your opinion and you are entitled to it. however no matter how you want to dress it up is smacks of misogyny.
good luck to every player in the open
brian
Was I not allowed to make my first post in relation to this topic? Sorry if you do not approve.
Perhaps you do not know what misogynist means, so I will clear that up for you:
mi·sog·y·nis·tic (mĭ-sŏj'ə-nĭs'tĭk)
adj. Of or characterized by a hatred of women.
How does having an opinion on the quality of play of men vs women at the top level mean that I hate women?
And how does the fact that I support Bola's right to state his opinion indicate that I hate women?
Perhaps you can shed some light on that since I am new to this forum.
Maybe you missed the part of my post where I said I agreed that the women should be allowed to play in any event they choose. In no way do I think that any event should exclude women in any way. I also said maybe one day everyone will compete on the same level, it's just not that way right now.
"I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it" - Evelyn Beatrice Hall
u can post whatever pleases u.
thanks but i really dont need ur "education". the part of bola's agrument and ur apparent argeement with him that smacks of mysogyny is that female pros, but the nature of them being female will never be able to complete with male pros who by nature of them being male will always be better. does that argument not sound mysogynistic?
brian