Workmanship

rhinobywilhite said:
very practical explanation of what we all face-wood does not necessarily drill or bore .0000 true. Consistency is our mark to shoot for with minimum run out. I think your parameters are very practical!
Click to expand...

Thanks :) I thought so, too. I was beginning to wonder if I was nuts for applying real world numbers to a hypothetical conversation.
 
Chopdoc said:
What does that mean to the end user?

To me it means that if someone owns one of your cues and buys another shaft from you without sending you the butt, the user would likely be satisfied with the fit.
Click to expand...

Not trying to split hairs here but does this mean all my cues that I built before I started using finishing mandrels are sub-standard if a shaft built later doesn't match up per diameter size?

Personally, I don't believe this to be true so lets throw that one out for the custom builders. If I were a production guy and had the same style ring work (Eg... a solid silver ring with a black collar) on every one of my cues then it may fit the profile.
 
BarenbruggeCues said:
Not trying to split hairs here but does this mean all my cues that I built before I started using finishing mandrels are sub-standard if a shaft built later doesn't match up per diameter size?

Personally, I don't believe this to be true so lets throw that one out for the custom builders. If I were a production guy and had the same style ring work (Eg... a solid silver ring with a black collar) on every one of my cues then it may fit the profile.
Click to expand...

Very good point. Sanding mandrels don't have a thing to do with installing a joint pin straight.
 
Canadian cue said:
To be fair, you mentioned PI cues. This is kind of an apple and orange thing. The average cue maker in PI does not have the same standard of equipment available to them as we do.
Click to expand...

I understand completely.

I mentioned that a conversation happened here and the comment was made. I didn't say that was my opinion. It was actually several cue makers who picked on that point about the PI cues, not me.

I introduced it only as an example of the topic.

Clearly the PI makers do a lot with very little so to speak.
.
 
BarenbruggeCues said:
Not trying to split hairs here but does this mean all my cues that I built before I started using finishing mandrels are sub-standard if a shaft built later doesn't match up per diameter size?
Click to expand...

No, why should it mean that?

It looks like you are digging for an insult or looking for something to pick on there.

The question was not about the diameter anyway, it was about pins being off center.

You are pretty darn well known maker of high regard. I suspect if you made a shaft for one of your own cues it would fit pretty darn well even if you didn't have the butt in your hands to match it. I would guess that your earlier work, like most cuemakers before they settle on dimensions they prefer etc, probably varied a little more than their later work.

I also suspect if somebody wanted a shaft for one of your early cues they would send it to you for proper fitment.

I am not here to insult anybody's work. The question really is about workmanship in general in the industry, including especially production type cues, mostly I got thinking about it because of the prevalence of ordering shafts without sending the butt in. This is extremely common these days.


.
 
Last edited:
CuesDirectly said:
Here is a video on youtube that some A-hole posted, lol

When your Lathe is that accurate, you need to have a perfectly bored hole with a perfect Pin.

I threw out 20 pins this year because they were three thousands of an inch off. They were the self centering flat faced 3/8" x 10 pins with the centering barrel. Put the barrel into the lathe, measure at the top of the pin and wow, into the trash. Turn the pin around and measure the bottom, same thing.

Atlas sells great pins, two ten thousands of an inch off and that is most likely the chuck.


https://youtu.be/VBThrRTxDO8
Click to expand...

You still have to deal with vibrations.
I find live boring with the lathe spindle released and just hand cranking to be more accurate.
That tip was given away by BHQ eons ago. He sure is correct.
 
Chopdoc said:
No, why should it mean that?

It looks like you are digging for an insult or looking for something to pick on there.

The question was not about the diameter anyway, it was about pins being off center.

You are pretty darn well known maker of high regard. I suspect if you made a shaft for one of your own cues it would fit pretty darn well even if you didn't have the butt in your hands to match it. I would guess that your earlier work, like most cuemakers before they settle on dimensions they prefer etc, probably varied a little more than their later work.

I also suspect if somebody wanted a shaft for one of your early cues they would send it to you for proper fitment.

I am not here to insult anybody's work. The question really is about workmanship in general in the industry, including especially production type cues, mostly I got thinking about it because of the prevalence of ordering shafts without sending the butt in. This is extremely common these days.


.
Click to expand...
Chop...not trying for an insult or dig on anyone. If you go back to where I quoted what YOU said, all I said was I disagree with your analysis of how shafts fitting should be considered. I took it as what you said about shafts not fitting properly at a later date was a sign of poor quality workmanship if the builder didn't have the butt. In fact, if I don't have the butt, I can't guarantee the fit and ring alignment and it has zero to do with my work quality.

Guaranteed if I was going for an insult everyone would have known it by now.
 
Chopdoc said:
No, why should it mean that?

It looks like you are digging for an insult or looking for something to pick on there.

The question was not about the diameter anyway, it was about pins being off center.

You are pretty darn well known maker of high regard. I suspect if you made a shaft for one of your own cues it would fit pretty darn well even if you didn't have the butt in your hands to match it. I would guess that your earlier work, like most cuemakers before they settle on dimensions they prefer etc, probably varied a little more than their later work.

I also suspect if somebody wanted a shaft for one of your early cues they would send it to you for proper fitment.

I am not here to insult anybody's work. The question really is about workmanship in general in the industry, including especially production type cues, mostly I got thinking about it because of the prevalence of ordering shafts without sending the butt in. This is extremely common these days.


.
Click to expand...
I made a shaft for a Brugge cue locally.
Dave sent me a screw so I can make a turning mandrel.
It was cake . Owner was happy.
 
Chopdoc said:
In the "old days" such things a slightly off center pins and/or inserts were pretty common. These days, with modern machinery and tolerances I think it is substantially less common. This is one of the things that helps make the market for shafts work.

An example I have is my Joss cues. All of the shafts I have are perfectly interchangeable. The diameter is the same and they are all concentric. The shafts I have and/or have tried span at least four decades. The makers of these shafts include Joss, Scruggs, and Stroud.

Several years ago in a discussion here a PI made brand of cues was criticized for off center pins. It was said this was one of the observable things that demonstrated the cues were of questionable quality and workmanship.

This leads me to a question for cuemakers.

Would you consider off center pins and/or inserts to be sub-standard wormanship?

I realize there is the issue of tolerances so let's just say off center in my question means as observed by an average user when they screw the cue together.

.
Click to expand...



The fact that Bill Stroud is not a HOF Cue Msker is an abomination IMO.
 
Chopdoc

Building shafts without having the butt to match is probably what brought about all these questions ( I saw another one of your posting where a shaft was ordered and had to be re-faced for a better fit, nothing to do with off-center insert or pin). I won't make a shaft without having the butt to match whether it be mine or anybody-else also I don't think inter-changeable shafts are a prerequisite to anything except consumer comfort. :)

Mario
 
qbilder said:
Very good point. Sanding mandrels don't have a thing to do with installing a joint pin straight.
Click to expand...


Straight is not the same as centered. That's was the point of chopdoc's original post. It could have been centered when installed and if a mandrell was not made correctly become off center when sanded.
Stainless joints?
I see them today, made recently run off up to .010 ÷2 of course. That usually means the forearm wasn't indicated before installed and machined which also means the pilot is off. People assume thier collets are perfect and proceed. Doing repairs has made me aware of a lot of different factors which add to the riddles.
My stainless for example.
I indicate the forearm. Install the joint then machine the joint between centers like I machine my cues. Joint screw last. Just my method. When I spin my cue. I don't want it bouncing anywhere and that includes the joint.
 
JoeyInCali said:
You still have to deal with vibrations.
I find live boring with the lathe spindle released and just hand cranking to be more accurate.
That tip was given away by BHQ eons ago. He sure is correct.[/QUOT



Fantastic, we agree on live boring. I do run my Lathe at slow RPMs while I do it, hand turning sounds interesting.

When using a boring bar, a small amount of BLO on the cutting edge will eliminate the vibrations. It works for me but I make my own boring bars with a cutting profile that is very sharp.

I like to live bore the pins and shafts. I like the boring bar for the rest because it leaves a finish better suited for glue.
Click to expand...
 
JoeyInCali said:
You still have to deal with vibrations.
I find live boring with the lathe spindle released and just hand cranking to be more accurate.
That tip was given away by BHQ eons ago. He sure is correct.
Click to expand...

i said what??????????????
 
qbilder said:
Thanks :) I thought so, too. I was beginning to wonder if I was nuts for applying real world numbers to a hypothetical conversation.
Click to expand...

Rest assured then engineers in the crowd understood and agreed with your perspective.

Dave <-- remembers well lectures about accuracy and precision, about 35 +- 2 years ago :thumbup:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top