World 10-ball

[BlueRaider]

i agree, seems like a nice guy but unfortunately that doesn't cut it. compared to JJ and boyes the predator production is way behind here, it's not even close. jim wych as a play by play commentator is too far removed from the modern game. shouldnt be too hard to get a recent pro who speaks well enough. corey, schmidt, someone like that

They do need a "go-to" guy or even a pairing like MR has. Wych has a good voice but I understand why people might find him annoying. I think the problem is that a lot of the pros who are good on the mic are still competing. Niels, for example, is fantastic but I doubt he's ready to give up competing and step inside the commentator's booth full-time. MR lucked out a bit with Karl and JJ (and vice versa).

 

[jay helfert]

Pretty good tournament and congrats to Kaci. Only drawbacks were a) the loose pockets which did not befit a world championship, b) the absolutely terrible commentary, and c) the fact that the top 2 walked away with 44% of the total payout. The event is clearly still a work in progress, but it's moving forward.

Some (not all) of the commentating left something to be desired. They would do an aside talking about things totally foreign to the action on the table and not paying attention when a very good shot (offense or defense) was made. How many times do we need to hear how tough life is being a pro pool player or how hard it is to make a living? That refrain is getting old, especially now as the number of tournaments and the prize money is growing exponentially. I found myself wanting to jump back in the booth and help them out. Just saying...

What was noteworthy of all the top players was how strong their defensive games were, better than I've ever seen before. If they had a choice between a difficult run-out or a chance to lock their opponent up, they would usually opt for the latter, hoping to get BIH to start their run. And it was a very effective strategy, although we saw many great kick shots and jumps. The back and forth defensive battles were some of my favorite parts of each match.

All and all a very watchable tournament with true matches and no shoot outs. The cream really rose to the top here! Kudos to CSI and Predator for giving us this gem of an event each year.

Best of all we are seeing pro players making a nice living at the game, thanks to the various organizations working together to cobble together a real Pro Tour that the top players can follow. Instead of a handful of decent events, we now have good tournaments every month for them to play in. Plus the major poolroom events that focus on One Pocket, 9-Ball and Ten Ball. They squeeze them in between the majors and fill out the calendar. A serious pro player could easily play thirty to forty events in a year if they so desired. An exhausting schedule to be sure, more doable for the young guys, but a clear path to making a livelihood.

You may not remember my post from last year where I talked about the up and down cycles I have always seen in our sport. It was in a thread lamenting the difficulty pro players had earning a living. My response was that we will soon see a resurgence in pro pool with all the various groups seeking to establish a foothold in the game. My, how things have changed in one year. I actually said the same thing in my interview with 60 Minutes made in February, 2022. Unfortunately they cut my interview from the show due to restricted air time and their desire to spend more time with Shane. I totally agreed with their decision. My interview was rather dry in comparison to the lifestyle of Shane Van Brilliant!

 

[skogstokig]

They do need a "go-to" guy or even a pairing like MR has. Wych has a good voice but I understand why people might find him annoying. I think the problem is that a lot of the pros who are good on the mic are still competing. Niels, for example, is fantastic but I doubt he's ready to give up competing and step inside the commentator's booth full-time. MR lucked out a bit with Karl and JJ (and vice versa).

they'll be out before L64 anyway. if not, L32. and that's good enough, works for snooker with dominic dale and alan mcmanus. the latter is full time commentator now but used to do both. i think shaun murphy does commentary too and he's still a competitive player.

 

[Cornerman]

Kristina did a fine job commentating. She gave us an up and coming tournament player's perspective and she filled us in a little on Kaci's snooker background.

I dont know what she said, but Klenti doesnt have a snooker background. He never played the game until his federation asked him to take part in their championship. He is a pool player that jumped into a snooker tournament. I’m hoping she didn’t spread an internet rumor.

 

[jay helfert]

I dont know what she said, but Klenti doesnt have a snooker background. He never played the game until his federation asked him to take part in their championship. He is a pool player that jumped into a snooker tournament. I’m hoping she didn’t spread an internet rumor.

You would have been a very good choice to do commentary at this event. You've got the chops to handle a major pro tournament!

 

[BlueRaider]

I dont know what she said, but Klenti doesnt have a snooker background. He never played the game until his federation asked him to take part in their championship. He is a pool player that jumped into a snooker tournament. I’m hoping she didn’t spread an internet rumor.

If his Wiki is accurate, he won Albania's amateur snooker championship 3 times. Either the snooker scene in Albania is pretty weak or Kaci has incredible talent to pull that off with no real history of playing the game. Maybe it's a little of both?

 

[iusedtoberich]

I dont know what she said, but Klenti doesnt have a snooker background. He never played the game until his federation asked him to take part in their championship. He is a pool player that jumped into a snooker tournament. I’m hoping she didn’t spread an internet rumor.

That was my impression also listening to her. More like (my words): “by the way he plays snooker once in a while” rather than “he was a snooker player who switched to pool”.

 

[skogstokig]

If his Wiki is accurate, he won Albania's amateur snooker championship 3 times. Either the snooker scene in Albania is pretty weak or Kaci has incredible talent to pull that off with no real history of playing the game. Maybe it's a little of both?

probably both, but it's a very small country too. south of 3 mil people, high poverty and no snooker heritage.

 

[jason]

I have been following pool for a long time and we are slowly getting things right. Streaming has been wonderful option over TV. Crowds are growing. Production quality is really good. Camera angles, lighting, arenas are really good too. I thought the LED Predator arena looked really sharp. One thing we are missing in my opinion is a camera on the commentators occasionally. Not having Joe Rogan on camera was a big mistake. Again, we are very lucky to have him as a fan. I'm sure his podcast with Fedor will pay a lot of benefits as well as the 60 minutes interview. This is an exciting time for the growth of pool. My hat is off to MatchRoom and Predator and CSI. Great Job!

 

[Cornerman]

If his Wiki is accurate, he won Albania's amateur snooker championship 3 times. Either the snooker scene in Albania is pretty weak or Kaci has incredible talent to pull that off with no real history of playing the game. Maybe it's a little of both?

I just want to be sure people don’t have this weird narrative. The guy is a poolplayer, and didn’t play snooker prior to playing the Albanian snooker championship . That should be the story since it’s the reality. It’s a great story for a pool player. But people want to say that his snooker is why he’s a good shotmaker. Totally false. He is for sure talented, and it’s not like Albania is a stronghold of top snooker talent.

Several of us have interviewed Klenti on this, and he was very clear. But I know the false narrative continues and will continue.

 

[Cornerman]

You would have been a very good choice to do commentary at this event. You've got the chops to handle a major pro tournament!

You know how I feel about this, Jay. You and I are a pretty good team in these events!

 

[Brookeland Bill]

I have been following pool for a long time and we are slowly getting things right. Streaming has been wonderful option over TV. Crowds are growing. Production quality is really good. Camera angles, lighting, arenas are really good too. I thought the LED Predator arena looked really sharp. One thing we are missing in my opinion is a camera on the commentators occasionally. Not having Joe Rogan on camera was a big mistake. Again, we are very lucky to have him as a fan. I'm sure his podcast with Fedor will pay a lot of benefits as well as the 60 minutes interview. This is an exciting time for the growth of pool. My hat is off to MatchRoom and Predator and CSI. Great Job!

Joe Rogan is not the ambassador that pool needs to grow in popularity. Too controversial. I can’t think of one top player today that fills that bill. Pool needs a Mickey Mantle, Mohammed Ali, Federer or Arnold Palmer. Someone that plays the game with a personality and charisma. Someone to take it out of the smoky dark past that still lingers to some extent. Its always going to be a subculture to some extent. I don’t see anyone out there that has those attributes.

 

[sjm]

The prize money REMAINING (after the top 2 walk away) is
more than DCC 9-ball total purse,
more than TWICE the Turning Stone total purse,
more than International 9-Ball total purse, and
more than the total purse of TWO Eurotour events (that have 200+ participants.)

I know you prefer a different distribution. I don't agree on that point.

The tables are about the right difficulty, imo. There is a balance. You need enough runout ability from the best players that the first to take control of the table matters, but not so much that a lot of the games have no back and forth that involves BOTH players skills in the same game. Here, of 254 streamed games, there were 32 runouts among the world's best players and no runs more than 2 games (quarter or fifth of a set). That's about the sweet spot.

What do these events have to do with anything? We know Eurotour has always paid nothing. Derby City is an independent event which, per Greg Sullivan, is primarily geared to amateurs. Turning Stone is a regional tour event. The International, though a fine event, is an independent event.

The most important comparison is to the other majors in rotation pool. I think most would agree that they are the World 9-ball, the US Open, the UK Open and the European Open.

Nobody's buying into the suggestion that the World 10-ball is paying similarly to the other majors in rotation pool.
The World 10-ball is a boon for those who reach the final day, as they walk away with 62% of the prize fund. The remainder of the field shares the other 32%. At the World 9-ball, it's just the opposite. The top four walk away with 38% of the purse and the remainder shares 62% of the purse, which is quite similar to what we see at the US Open, UK Open and European Open.

The payout structure seen at the World 10-ball is a complete novelty, and save the winner-take-all Challenge of Champions event, doesn't payout in a way that is similar to any event I've seen in my 47 years around the pro game.

One cannot say that to be different is to be wrong, but top-heavy payouts have always eventually discouraged participation and I predict that this be the case with the World 10-ball.

 

[Monti]

Recent match statistics do not bear out that it's easier to string racks in nine ball than ten ball. It's about the same for the most elite players.

hi Stu

I really appreciate your contributions on these forums and feel like disagreeing with you is like disagreeing with Dr Dave about soft tips! But the stats that Atlarge just put out show 13% b and r compared to 32% at the world 9 ball. Plus you seemed to allude that these tables were easier, don’t these stats reinforce the point?

 

[sjm]

hi Stu

I really appreciate your contributions on these forums and feel like disagreeing with you is like disagreeing with Dr Dave about soft tips! But the stats that Atlarge just put out show 13% b and r compared to 32% at the world 9 ball. Plus you seemed to allude that these tables were easier, don’t these stats reinforce the point?

The posters I admire the most are the ones that are comfortable in disagreeing with me as often as they choose. I've learned so much from them over the years, and they often open my eyes to factors and issues that I should be considering.

You're right, Monti, although I've never seen such a low break and run percentage at a ten-ball event before. If this 13% is the number we're going to see going forward, the case will be open and shut, but when the top players gamble at ten ball, the ten-ball B&R rates are much, much higher, so we'll keep our eyes open and see what the future brings.

Thanks for your post, Monti.

 

[BlueRaider]

Joe Rogan is not the ambassador that pool needs to grow in popularity. Too controversial. I can’t think of one top player today that fills that bill. Pool needs a Mickey Mantle, Mohammed Ali, Federer or Arnold Palmer. Someone that plays the game with a personality and charisma. Someone to take it out of the smoky dark past that still lingers to some extent. Its always going to be a subculture to some extent. I don’t see anyone out there that has those attributes.

I doubt we will see anyone like that moving forward, outside of Mosconi Cup antics. It seems the trend now is to be as robotic and emotionless as possible at the table outside of a few grimaces here and there.

 

[Hits 'em Hard]

Pretty good tournament and congrats to Kaci. Only drawbacks were a) the loose pockets which did not befit a world championship, b) the absolutely terrible commentary, and c) the fact that the top 2 walked away with 44% of the total payout. The event is clearly still a work in progress, but it's moving forward.

Why have you turned so negative lately? You used to praise the quality of play at the DCC on 4-1/2 pockets. Now those pockets are “too loose”? If anything, the tables played so slow the quality of play in my opinion was timid. Tighter pockets on ‘slick’ but slow cloth makes matches hard to watch. How many shots were struck well, that in any other event position is rewarded perfectly. But these last two 10 ball events at the Rio had come up massively short?

Your complaints about payout are unfounded. A World Champion shouldn’t be taking home a measly $60,000. It should pay out enough to sustain a person for two years. So there’s more hunger for the competition. Your whole basis for complaining is due to a small prize fund. Whatever percentage breakdown that turns out to be, you have to be realistic in understanding that it’s not about that. It’s about making the winner feel like their time is made worth it.

 

[iusedtoberich]

I have a few questions on the break. I did watch a couple days, but not "super closely".

1) Where was the 1 ball placed? On the spot? Or was the 10 ball on the spot? The overhead camera made it look to me that actually neither was on the spot, but rather the second row of balls were on the spot. I know the camera distorts things though, especially when trying to line up the diamonds with the bed of the cloth, since they are at different heights.

2) Why was Shane (and many others) breaking from the rail? On Shane's last match, I heard one of the commentators say it is because it was a triangle rack rather than a template rack. However, when Shane came on the scene in 2007, he beat the snot out of Corey with a wood rack. He was often playing 6 or 7 ball after the break, in that match, while Corey was soft breaking and playing 9 ball after the break. So it can't be triangle vs template as the reason he went to the rail. This leads me back to #1, maybe the rack placement was different?

3) Not a question but an interesting observation: On several of the racks I watched (that were NOT flat racks), the balls clustered around the side pocket on the breakers side. They went around the table and landed there. I don't recall seeing that before in any prior tournaments. Have you guys seen that before?

 

[Jimmorrison]

It appeared to me that Shane just completely lost faith in the hand racks, got slugged early and often. He was slamming them hard and hoping.

 

[skogstokig]

I have a few questions on the break. I did watch a couple days, but not "super closely".

1) Where was the 1 ball placed? On the spot? Or was the 10 ball on the spot? The overhead camera made it look to me that actually neither was on the spot, but rather the second row of balls were on the spot. I know the camera distorts things though, especially when trying to line up the diamonds with the bed of the cloth, since they are at different heights.

2) Why was Shane (and many others) breaking from the rail? On Shane's last match, I heard one of the commentators say it is because it was a triangle rack rather than a template rack. However, when Shane came on the scene in 2007, he beat the snot out of Corey with a wood rack. He was often playing 6 or 7 ball after the break, in that match, while Corey was soft breaking and playing 9 ball after the break. So it can't be triangle vs template as the reason he went to the rail. This leads me back to #1, maybe the rack placement was different?

3) Not a question but an interesting observation: On several of the racks I watched (that were NOT flat racks), the balls clustered around the side pocket on the breakers side. They went around the table and landed there. I don't recall seeing that before in any prior tournaments. Have you guys seen that before?

one ball on the spot and yes, it was the triangle rack (and the refs) that made the from the rail break the rational choice for most players. it makes for a tougher clearance for the opponent with balls going to the side. also there's a chance for the one ball to go, or a stray ball. in the end, a traditional breaker won the title though.

i believe they tapped the tables between the las vegas open and the w10b, but it was still tough to make a ball.