World 10-ball

[sjm]

Why have you turned so negative lately? You used to praise the quality of play at the DCC on 4-1/2 pockets. Now those pockets are “too loose”? If anything, the tables played so slow the quality of play in my opinion was timid. Tighter pockets on ‘slick’ but slow cloth makes matches hard to watch. How many shots were struck well, that in any other event position is rewarded perfectly. But these last two 10 ball events at the Rio had come up massively short?

Your complaints about payout are unfounded. A World Champion shouldn’t be taking home a measly $60,000. It should pay out enough to sustain a person for two years. So there’s more hunger for the competition. Your whole basis for complaining is due to a small prize fund. Whatever percentage breakdown that turns out to be, you have to be realistic in understanding that it’s not about that. It’s about making the winner feel like their time is made worth it.

Fair point, but I feel that an event deemed a World Championship should not be played on loose equipment, and whether it's nine or ten ball, I feel the same. This view, at least for me, is hardly new. Here's an excerpt from my recap of Matchroom's 2021 World 9-ball championship, in which I also had a problem with the loose equipment,

Negative #3: Equipment Not Befitting a World Championship
This was the biggest negative. The equipment was way too easy for players of this caliber, a point reinforced in commentary by both Boyes and Shaw. This made the elite players more vulnerable and ultimately delivered an unusually weak final eight, in which no player whose Fargo rate placed them in the world’s top 15 was present. Watching balls poorly hit going in time after time was hard to bear, and the event was cheapened by the fact that the test was not stiff enough for the world’s best pool players.

All that said, I'm fine with 4 1/2" pockets anywhere but the majors and always have been.

As for your final comment, there is no such thing as what a world champion should take home. I go back to the days when $4,000 was all you got for first place in the PPPA World 14.1 Championships. There is precedent, however, for what a world champion should get as a percentage of the purse in the event, and this number is too high for my taste. There's also loads of evidence that top heavy payouts discourage participation over time, and that's not what I want to see.

I respect your opinion and preferences, but we don't see things the same way here, and that's OK. Thanks for your input.

 

[BlueRaider]

I go back to the days when $4,000 was all you got for first place in the PPPA World 14.1 Championships. There is precedent, however, for what a world champion should get as a percentage of the purse in the event, and this number is too high for my taste. There's also loads of evidence that top heavy payouts discourage participation over time, and that's not what I want to see.

I respect your opinion and preferences, but we don't see things the same way here, and that's OK. Thanks for your input.

In 2007, the W9B champ got $100,000!

Then the global recession hit and the tournament moved to Qatar, where first prize was a measly $36,000 in 2010-2011.

It's sad that the needle moved so far backwards that $60,000 in 2023 is now the standard for the biggest prize in pool, when nearly 20 years ago the winner got almost double that (and during a time when everything cost considerably less money due to inflation).

To me, such a pitiful payout for the world championship of the premiere game of the sport makes pro pool look incredibly cheap and quaint. I'm not in a position to tell anyone or any organization how to spend their money, but six-figure first prizes would go a long way towards making pro pool seem at least remotely respectable as a sport. I think to the layperson, hearing the "world champion" made a whopping $60,000 for dispatching a bracket full of extreme talent makes them quickly dismiss the sport as nothing more than a novelty.

 

[Monti]

However, when Shane came on the scene in 2007, he beat the snot out of Corey with a wood rack.

Could it be that Shane racked his own back then rather than having that dodgy bloke they have now doing it! Or maybe it was Michela? Where did she go?

 

[Dan_B]

Some stats for this event are now available here: https://forums.azbilliards.com/thre...d-10-ball-championship-feb-march-2023.552140/

great overall as usual,
the spoiler stinky part, is the "with the highest WPA rankings were then seeded into the final bracket".
I suppose to be inclusive on their part - CSI.
We've seen Fargo numbers generated from the current tournament run at stake, would of fit with no stink if those were used for this match final seeding.

<vent>Having the juggernaut CSI with their main engines of BCA Leagues and Fargo for the push then giving the Weed Whackers (WPA) any platform of recognition for a standard of fair play, while they, WPA an old-world entity, in their backyard is comfortable with its thumb up its ass as mass murder partakes as a norm, has no standing. </vent>

 

[skogstokig]

Joe Rogan is not the ambassador that pool needs to grow in popularity. Too controversial. I can’t think of one top player today that fills that bill. Pool needs a Mickey Mantle, Mohammed Ali, Federer or Arnold Palmer. Someone that plays the game with a personality and charisma. Someone to take it out of the smoky dark past that still lingers to some extent. Its always going to be a subculture to some extent. I don’t see anyone out there that has those attributes.

if pool becomes more financially viable as a career for the players, more kids will want to become pool players. and it seems to be heading in that direction. there will be characters along the way. maybe there already is, but we don't see it cuz we're too often looking narrowly at our own countrymen; look at mohammed soufi who made it to the world 9b finals last month - that was probably very inspiring to middle easterners. the same with the vietnamese guy, he seems to have a big following going by how they completely overcrowd the youtube chat/comments. i can imagine FSR is very popular in the spanish speaking world etc.

 

[sjm]

In 2007, the W9B champ got $100,000!

Then the global recession hit and the tournament moved to Qatar, where first prize was a measly $36,000 in 2010-2011.

It's sad that the needle moved so far backwards that $60,000 in 2023 is now the standard for the biggest prize in pool, when nearly 20 years ago the winner got almost double that (and during a time when everything cost considerably less money due to inflation).

To me, such a pitiful payout for the world championship of the premiere game of the sport makes pro pool look incredibly cheap and quaint. I'm not in a position to tell anyone or any organization how to spend their money, but six-figure first prizes would go a long way towards making pro pool seem at least remotely respectable as a sport. I think to the layperson, hearing the "world champion" made a whopping $60,000 for dispatching a bracket full of extreme talent makes them quickly dismiss the sport as nothing more than a novelty.

Great post! As you note, the needle has moved all over the place. The size of the first place check may never be enough to garner any attention, and I don't think pool's image will be affected one way or the other by the size of that check. My opinion is that if pool is to be sustainable over time, you can't have super top-heavy payouts.

I think we're on the same page in wanting to see the sport grow to the point that prize money growth can enable high winner checks but, in the interim, if pool is going to finance big winner checks by paying nearly nothing to the middle of the field, I'm against it, because it will lead to reduced participation in an era where pool's business model is still very dependent on dead money.

I think we have the same hopes for the pro game.

 

[sjm]

if pool becomes more financially viable as a career for the players, more kids will want to become pool players. and it seems to be heading in that direction. there will be characters along the way. maybe there already is, but we don't see it cuz we're too often looking narrowly at our own countrymen; look at mohammed soufi who made it to the world 9b finals last month - that was probably very inspiring to middle easterners. the same with the vietnamese guy, he seems to have a big following going by how they completely overcrowd the youtube chat/comments. i can imagine FSR is very popular in the spanish speaking world etc.

Yes, well said and well-reasoned.

 

[Brookeland Bill]

Fair point, but I feel that an event deemed a World Championship should not be played on loose equipment, and whether it's nine or ten ball, I feel the same. This view, at least for me, is hardly new. Here's an excerpt from my recap of Matchroom's 2021 World 9-ball championship, in which I also had a problem with the loose equipment,

Negative #3: Equipment Not Befitting a World Championship
This was the biggest negative. The equipment was way too easy for players of this caliber, a point reinforced in commentary by both Boyes and Shaw. This made the elite players more vulnerable and ultimately delivered an unusually weak final eight, in which no player whose Fargo rate placed them in the world’s top 15 was present. Watching balls poorly hit going in time after time was hard to bear, and the event was cheapened by the fact that the test was not stiff enough for the world’s best pool players.

All that said, I'm fine with 4 1/2" pockets anywhere but the majors and always have been.

As for your final comment, there is no such thing as what a world champion should take home. I go back to the days when $4,000 was all you got for first place in the PPPA World 14.1 Championships. There is precedent, however, for what a world champion should get as a percentage of the purse in the event, and this number is too high for my taste. There's also loads of evidence that top heavy payouts discourage participation over time, and that's not what I want to see.

I respect your opinion and preferences, but we don't see things the same way here, and that's OK. Thanks for your input.

I agree about the size of the pockets a events for professionals. Their need to be a uniform standard like the size of a golf hole (4.25”) and diameter of a basketball hoop (18”) and so on and so on in the sports world.

One thing I would like to see is the ability to win in 10 ball by legally making the 10 during a game as is possible in 9 ball. It would liven up the game. I got a little bored with the semi finals and finals of this weeks Vegas tournament. Going after the 10 would add a little more excitement rather can just connecting the dots.

 

[Taxi]

Joe Rogan is not the ambassador that pool needs to grow in popularity. Too controversial. I can’t think of one top player today that fills that bill. Pool needs a Mickey Mantle, Mohammed Ali, Federer or Arnold Palmer. Someone that plays the game with a personality and charisma. Someone to take it out of the smoky dark past that still lingers to some extent. Its always going to be a subculture to some extent. I don’t see anyone out there that has those attributes.

I'm about as opposed to most of Joe Rogan's political views as it's possible to be, but after watching his interview with Gorst, I think his obvious love of the game and his freewheeling style would be a great way of introducing more people to the game we love. Some of the old time players would've filled the bill if they'd had Rogan's exposure, but that was then and this is now.

 

[skip100]

It’s bizarre at best to say the pockets were too big when AtLarge reports the B&R rate was only 23% on successful breaks and 13% on all breaks.

 

[Bob Farr]

I agree about the size of the pockets a events for professionals. Their need to be a uniform standard like the size of a golf hole (4.25”) and diameter of a basketball hoop (18”) and so on and so on in the sports world.

One thing I would like to see is the ability to win in 10 ball by legally making the 10 during a game as is possible in 9 ball. It would liven up the game. I got a little bored with the semi finals and finals of this weeks Vegas tournament. Going after the 10 would add a little more excitement rather can just connecting the dots.

Congrats to Kaci! I watched him in a match with no clock a while back and I swore I would never watch him again. Up Down, Up Down, Up, walk around again, again and again. It was like getting a root canal.
With the clock on he was fun to watch. I think it's the best I've ever seen him play. (He didn't leave any extensions unused tho)

As far as the equipment. I didn't mind the pockets but, the cloth seemed way too slow. I don't think any of the guys got totally used to it.

Very enjoyable tournament to watch though.

 

[ChrisinNC]

One thing I would like to see is the ability to win in 10 ball by legally making the 10 during a game as is possible in 9 ball. It would liven up the game. I got a little bored with the semi finals and finals of this weeks Vegas tournament. Going after the 10 would add a little more excitement rather can just connecting the dots.

They could play the 10 ball early on a combo or carom to win as long as they call the shot. Ruiz did that in one of the last games he won in the finals. Are you referring to slopping it in without calling it?

 

[iusedtoberich]

Congrats to Kaci! I watched him in a match with no clock a while back and I swore I would never watch him again. Up Down, Up Down, Up, walk around again, again and again. It was like getting a root canal.
With the clock on he was fun to watch. I think it's the best I've ever seen him play. (He didn't leave any extensions unused tho)

As far as the equipment. I didn't mind the pockets but, the cloth seemed way too slow. I don't think any of the guys got totally used to it.

Very enjoyable tournament to watch though.

Yeah, I was the same way. Swore I'd never watch him again, and haven't in 5 years until this event. Wow, what a difference a shot clock makes!

 

[Cuedup]

They could play the 10 ball early on a combo or carom to win as long as they call the shot. Ruiz did that in one of the last games he won in the finals. Are you referring to slopping it in without calling it?

I could swear I saw the 10 in the pocket.
10 hit in with the 9.
10 spotted.
Sunk the 9
Sunk the 10 for the win.

 

[realtor1618]

They could play the 10 ball early on a combo or carom to win as long as they call the shot. Ruiz did that in one of the last games he won in the finals. Are you referring to slopping it in without calling it?

I’m not sure that is correct. I don’t think early ten balls were allowed in this event called or not. Ruiz made a combo on the ten and it was replaced on the spot to the best of my recollection

 

[iusedtoberich]

I could swear I saw the 10 in the pocket.
10 hit in with the 9.
10 spotted.
Sunk the 9
Sunk the 10 for the win.

I saw the same. Pretty sure the 10 has to go last under WPA rules, unless it was changed recently.

 

[AtLarge]

They could play the 10 ball early on a combo or carom to win as long as they call the shot. Ruiz did that in one of the last games he won in the finals. Are you referring to slopping it in without calling it?

Early 10-balls, if called (and not on the break), were winners in last week's Las Vegas Open but not in the World 10-Ball.

 

[Brookeland Bill]

I’m not sure that is correct. I don’t think early ten balls were allowed in this event called or not. Ruiz made a combo on the ten and it was replaced on the spot to the best of my recollection

Yes. You’re right. It was spotted.

It’s bizarre at best to say the pockets were too big when AtLarge reports the B&R rate was only 23% on successful breaks and 13% on all breaks.

It’s not about the breaks.

 

[jasonlaus]

They could play the 10 ball early on a combo or carom to win as long as they call the shot. Ruiz did that in one of the last games he won in the finals. Are you referring to slopping it in without calling it?

Nope

 

[AtLarge]

... I've never seen such a low break and run percentage at a ten-ball event before. ...

Here are the B&R percentages for the matches I tracked from the last 7 US Pro Billiard Series 10-Ball events: 15, 14, 14, 22, 11, 21, 16. As with this week's World 10-Ball event, those events used Predator tables with 4¼" corners and a triangle rack. So this week's result (13%) was not much different from what we have seen previously with this equipment.

[Stu -- looks like you used $225,000 or $226,000 as the purse for the World 10-Ball. Unless it changed from what was planned, the purse was $250,000, so your percentages are off a little.]