World 14.1 Tournament Pay-outs

[3andstop]

The Chicken or the Egg?

I understand that tv coverage may be too expensive to produce. Were there any local or national tv stations present to get this on the evening news? Were they even invited?

What kind of print media coverage did this event generate? I just Googled this tournament and aside from online coverage from pool-related magazines, I didn't see anything in the NY Times or anywhere else. Did anybody tell the newspapers about this event?

In another thread, I recollect reading that none of the pool rooms had flyers on this event. How many flyers were distributed to let the pool playing public know about it.

If the attendance was poor, perhaps there were good reasons for the low attendance.

I think Allen is hitting the nail on the head here. We expect the sport, format and event to magically unfold a ton of spectators knocking the doors down, but it ain't gonna happen unless "INITIALLY" a good portion of the up front costs go into advertising.

When I opened my poolroom I laid out tons of money, I signed my name to the equity in my home, and I sucked it up for the first 3 yrs before word got out, and there was plenty of advertising as well.

This business of putting together tourneys is no different than any other. You get out of it what you put into it. You can't win the cash if you don't lay it down first.

Re-read Allens questions ... they are RIGHT ON! Not only with this specific tournament, but with pool events in general. How can you expect results any different than what they were.

I was at the event myself and aside from being sorry I didn't bring our freezer full of frozen meats with me to keep them colder than home, I thought the provisions were very good.

Without pockets (or the will to risk personal equity) deep enough to get better results, you couldn't expect too much more.

I don't think its billiards itself or straight pool specifically that is to blame here. I think that promoted and advertised sufficiently, you could get the masses to come out and watch a wallpaper hanging contest. Shoot I've seen better turn outs at locally held Chess Tournaments because they are advertised. I love that game as well, but lets face it ....talk about watching the grass grow ......

I think 14.1 is a true gladiator's battle and it has great potential. Who knows, now that I'm retired maybe I'll go crazy and try to get a 100,000 added 14.1 tourney going. Ya never know .. I just may, I mean what the hell, I know a little about this game too.

Gotta think outside the box a little here for cash. Soft drink industry, fast food industry, automotive industry ... ya sure can't get all the money from a few hard working cue stick makers alone if you're gonna start thinking big numbers. I mean what the hell does Viagara have to do with NASCAR?

Maybe if the players had vests with graphics of the Hamburgler or Ronald McDonald on the back instead, there may be more beef to go around (so to speak)

 

[JAM]

I had one thought in the back of my mind reading this thread, but I hesitated to post it, but after reading some of the responses, I will throw it out there.

Accu-Stats and Pat Fleming, I had thought were located in New Jersey.

Being that this was labeled as a WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP, to include a player roster with many of the top players today, I was extremely curious as to why Accu-Stats was not there recording this event. It would seem to me that the travel to get there would be a lot less than it is to go to the U.S. Open, DCC, or Turning Stone Casino in Verona, NY.

Having some of the matches filmed by Accu-Stats would have definitely been something that many pool enthusiasts would have enjoyed.

This post is not meant to criticize the organizers and promoters, BTW.

As far as advertising in advance, this is a tough game to sell to media. I personally have e-mailed, phoned, and sent letters to local news in my area when there was a large event happening, and the response I got from Channel 9, I will never forget: POOL IS NOT A SPORT! So there you have it.

If you look at how the event was advertised ahead of time on this forum and to other pool-related entities, this tournament received quite a bit of publicity and attention. Trying to get mainstream America pulled into the fray is a tough nut to crack.

JMHO, FWIW!

JAM

 

[3andstop]

If you look at how the event was advertised ahead of time on this forum and to other pool-related entities, this tournament received quite a bit of publicity and attention. Trying to get mainstream America pulled into the fray is a tough nut to crack.

JMHO, FWIW!

JAM

Jam, I think that's the whole point. Advertising in this minuscule arena of pool lovers is like advertising a pizza dough throwing contest only to the owners of Pizza Hut who wait for it each year.

Colorful, exciting advertising that is catchy and relentless (and expensive) has to be pounded out to ESPECIALLY folks who have no clue what 14.1 or even pool is.

Compare to poker, first came public exposure, now, everyone and their uncle wants to play a game that was around forever with no takers.

 

[lfigueroa]

I think Allen is hitting the nail on the head here. We expect the sport, format and event to magically unfold a ton of spectators knocking the doors down, but it ain't gonna happen unless "INITIALLY" a good portion of the up front costs go into advertising.

When I opened my poolroom I laid out tons of money, I signed my name to the equity in my home, and I sucked it up for the first 3 yrs before word got out, and there was plenty of advertising as well.

This business of putting together tourneys is no different than any other. You get out of it what you put into it. You can't win the cash if you don't lay it down first.

Re-read Allens questions ... they are RIGHT ON! Not only with this specific tournament, but with pool events in general. How can you expect results any different than what they were.

I was at the event myself and aside from being sorry I didn't bring our freezer full of frozen meats with me to keep them colder than home, I thought the provisions were very good.

Without pockets (or the will to risk personal equity) deep enough to get better results, you couldn't expect too much more.

I don't think its billiards itself or straight pool specifically that is to blame here. I think that promoted and advertised sufficiently, you could get the masses to come out and watch a wallpaper hanging contest. Shoot I've seen better turn outs at locally held Chess Tournaments because they are advertised. I love that game as well, but lets face it ....talk about watching the grass grow ......

I think 14.1 is a true gladiator's battle and it has great potential. Who knows, now that I'm retired maybe I'll go crazy and try to get a 100,000 added 14.1 tourney going. Ya never know .. I just may, I mean what the hell, I know a little about this game too.

Gotta think outside the box a little here for cash. Soft drink industry, fast food industry, automotive industry ... ya sure can't get all the money from a few hard working cue stick makers alone if you're gonna start thinking big numbers. I mean what the hell does Viagara have to do with NASCAR?

Maybe if the players had vests with graphics of the Hamburgler or Ronald McDonald on the back instead, there may be more beef to go around (so to speak)

I have a bit of background in PR and IMO you've both hit this nail on the head.

Unless you are a denizen of the pool online pool forums, how were you to even know this event was going on? Even then it wasn't until shortly before the event that there was any info about tickets and the players participating.

The PR for this event was virtually non-existent, so you got what you got. I don't think they even scratched the surface of potential interest with the national pool playing community at large and the local NJ/NY markets.

Lou Figueroa

 

[JAM]

Media in America does not seem to respond to pool-related events. A good example is when the IPT held a multi-million-dollar tournament in Vegas, and not a mention in the national press about it.

Sponsors don't go for pool anymore, like they did in the days of Steve Mizerak. American beer companies have a commercial out with Kobayashi heralded as the hot dog champion, advertising their beer. MasterCard sponsors hot dot-eating champions today, but wouldn't even touch pool: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oz57jWsiNDk

I hate to say it, but maybe to put pool on the map, a major news media incident needs to occur, like when Tanya Harding, et al., attacked Nancy Kerrigan. Ice skating as a sport took off big time in popularity after that incident.

JAM

 

[NYC cue dude]

obviuosly, JAM, we spoke at length with accustats before last years event, and their "demands" were outrageous. I have covered this before in past threads, but all i will say here is that they wanted to either CO-OWN the event or be paid a flat fee that was tantamount to USURY!!! very disappointing to say the least. Thats all I'll say about accustats.

I think there is some merit to what has been said about marketing. But at what cost. No one here, including the sponsors and promoters are looking to porfit from this event. The significant money posted from the private sponsorship is DONATED, with no expectation of any return. What we would like is to raise enough money from the event for it to become selfsustaining. So how much to risk for absolutely no possibility of return? Should someone post another 50k to the event to promote, and then have a paltry turnout? That would only have to happen once, and I assure you that it would be the last. As someone suggested, they mortaged their home to sustain a business. But.... eventually you expected a profit. We don't.

I am doing this because I love this game. But how many 10's and 10's of thousands of dollars should be at risk, without reaching the goal of being self sustaining?

rg

Ps. Of course the media was alerted. They DON'T care!!!!!!! not even a little bit. Not sure if any of you are on dragon promotions mailing list, but there were perhaps 2 dozen press releases leading up to this event. They automatically go to all the regional media, news and sports channnels!

 

[PoolSharkAllen]

I think there is some merit to what has been said about marketing. But at what cost. No one here, including the sponsors and promoters are looking to porfit from this event. The significant money posted from the private sponsorship is DONATED, with no expectation of any return. What we would like is to raise enough money from the event for it to become selfsustaining. So how much to risk for absolutely no possibility of return? Should someone post another 50k to the event to promote, and then have a paltry turnout? That would only have to happen once, and I assure you that it would be the last. As someone suggested, they mortaged their home to sustain a business. But.... eventually you expected a profit. We don't.

I am doing this because I love this game. But how many 10's and 10's of thousands of dollars should be at risk, without reaching the goal of being self sustaining?

rg

Ps. Of course the media was alerted. They DON'T care!!!!!!! not even a little bit. Not sure if any of you are on dragon promotions mailing list, but there were perhaps 2 dozen press releases leading up to this event. They automatically go to all the regional media, news and sports channnels!

Ultimately, if these types of pool tournaments are to succeed, it needs both main-stream sponsorship and media publicity.

That other post about a rock-paper-scissors event had me wondering how they organizers managed to get this event on ESPN? How did they raise the 50K winner's prize? How did they get this mentioned on USA Today and the NY Times? How did they get major sponsorship from Bud Light and Anheuser Busch?

If a "frivolous" rock-paper-scissors competition can get national and local sponsorship and publicity, then why can't pool do the same? IMO, we need to re-evaluate how we are doing things and somehow figure out a way to do better.

 

[cuetable]

If a "frivolous" rock-paper-scissors competition can get national and local sponsorship and publicity, then why can't pool do the same? IMO, we need to re-evaluate how we are doing things and somehow figure out a way to do better.

I have some thoughts on these. People want to watch rock-paper-scissors competition because it appears to require little skill (if no cheating involved) and the pace is quick. The hotdog competition look like a freak show and it is definitely unhealthy. The attraction in these events mainly come from the fabricated hype and there is very little to learn inside of the activities.

Pool is different. I felt the good vibes emitted from the room. It was almost a holy spiritual experience. And we should work together in defining this good vibes and sharing with the public. Human merits is just as important as sponsorship funding. In a way they are ying and yang following each other.

A big thanks to everybody at the World 14.1 championship last week. My hat off to you all!

 

[JAM]

obviuosly, JAM, we spoke at length with accustats before last years event, and their "demands" were outrageous. I have covered this before in past threads, but all i will say here is that they wanted to either CO-OWN the event or be paid a flat fee that was tantamount to USURY!!! very disappointing to say the least. Thats all I'll say about accustats.

I'm sorry, Randy. Unfortunately, I sometimes don't read all the threads on the forum, at least as much as I used to do, and I must have missed the one where you mentioned this topic.

I think there is some merit to what has been said about marketing. But at what cost. No one here, including the sponsors and promoters are looking to porfit from this event. The significant money posted from the private sponsorship is DONATED, with no expectation of any return. What we would like is to raise enough money from the event for it to become selfsustaining. So how much to risk for absolutely no possibility of return? Should someone post another 50k to the event to promote, and then have a paltry turnout? That would only have to happen once, and I assure you that it would be the last. As someone suggested, they mortaged their home to sustain a business. But.... eventually you expected a profit. We don't.

I am doing this because I love this game. But how many 10's and 10's of thousands of dollars should be at risk, without reaching the goal of being self sustaining?

rg

Ps. Of course the media was alerted. They DON'T care!!!!!!! not even a little bit. Not sure if any of you are on dragon promotions mailing list, but there were perhaps 2 dozen press releases leading up to this event. They automatically go to all the regional media, news and sports channnels!

I do not think anyone should keep pouring thousands of dollars into something with little or no return. That's for sure!

However, one return that you should be very proud of is the fact that you have lit a spark and ignited a fire into the 14.1 enthusiasts around the world, and for that, you should be commended. Please know that there are MANY folks who are appreciative of your efforts to make this happen.

You are right about the media, though. They do not regard pool as newsworthy. What a shame that is!

JAM

 

[PoolSharkAllen]

Ps. Of course the media was alerted. They DON'T care!!!!!!! not even a little bit. Not sure if any of you are on dragon promotions mailing list, but there were perhaps 2 dozen press releases leading up to this event. They automatically go to all the regional media, news and sports channnels!

A better approach might be for the tournament organizers to CALL the media, news and sports channels to tell them about the pool events that are occurring and give them the results too. And invite them to send a reporter or tv crew out to cover the event.

 

[JAM]

Instead of sending out emails that go into the Delete bin, perhaps people should call the media, news and sports channels to tell them about the pool events that are occurring and give them the results too. And invite them to send a reporter or tv crew out to cover the event.

It doesn't work that way, unfortunately, at least that has been my experience here in the D.C. area. The news media could care less if a major pool event was happening with world-class champions in attendance. They'd rather cover the spelling bee at Wilson Elementary School or the regional Scrabble championship at the public library.

JAM

 

[NYC cue dude]

Ultimately, if these types of pool tournaments are to succeed, it needs both main-stream sponsorship and media publicity.

That other post about a rock-paper-scissors event had me wondering how they organizers managed to get this event on ESPN? How did they raise the 50K winner's prize? How did they get this mentioned on USA Today and the NY Times? How did they get major sponsorship from Bud Light and Anheuser Busch?

If a "frivolous" rock-paper-scissors competition can get national and local sponsorship and publicity, then why can't pool do the same? IMO, we need to re-evaluate how we are doing things and somehow figure out a way to do better.

the following is a true story:

about 4 years ago, at the World Summit of Pool held in Grand Central station, the promoters finally, after years of pursuit, got amber brock (sp?) to sponser the event. This was a big breakthrough for the industry, afterall, their could never be a better marriage than that could exist between the deep pocketed beer industry and the sport of pocket billiards. Obviously, the majority of pool is played in bars and establishments similar.

Anyway, the beer company was skeptical beforehand, and they sent undercover spotters to watch the event. Unfortuantely, they were witness to the ultimate gaffe our industry could show them. At the time, the tournament director doubled as the events 'bookie". He conducted his "business" behind a curtain, no more than 15 feet away from the tables. It was a sight, to be sure, (i was there), to see the TD, dressed in a tuxedo, booking the action on the games, with the PLAYERS! but the real kicker was, the TD was also the REFEREE!

Well, needless to say, the beer sponsors flipped out, and pulled their support of future events.

Over the years, there have been many stories like this. Sponsors don't want to be involved with a sport where it is fairly common for it's top players to be involved with creating "savers", dumping matches and illegal gambling. Until the sports image changes, the outside sponsorship woes will continue.

rg

 

[Blackjack]

the following is a true story:

about 4 years ago, at the World Summit of Pool held in Grand Central station, the promoters finally, after years of pursuit, got amber brock (sp?) to sponser the event. This was a big breakthrough for the industry, afterall, their could never be a better marriage than that could exist between the deep pocketed beer industry and the sport of pocket billiards. Obviously, the majority of pool is played in bars and establishments similar.

Anyway, the beer company was skeptical beforehand, and they sent undercover spotters to watch the event. Unfortuantely, they were witness to the ultimate gaffe our industry could show them. At the time, the tournament director doubled as the events 'bookie". He conducted his "business" behind a curtain, no more than 15 feet away from the tables. It was a sight, to be sure, (i was there), to see the TD, dressed in a tuxedo, booking the action on the games, with the PLAYERS! but the real kicker was, the TD was also the REFEREE!

Well, needless to say, the beer sponsors flipped out, and pulled their support of future events.

Over the years, there have been many stories like this. Sponsors don't want to be involved with a sport where it is fairly common for it's top players to be involved with creating "savers", dumping matches and illegal gambling. Until the sports image changes, the outside sponsorship woes will continue.

rg

That story is sad, but true.

 

[VIProfessor]

I'm gonna add my little .02 to the discussion to point out that one of the huge problems is the apathy of the pool community itself in terms of willingness to support these events. I arrived in New York on Wednesday night and immediately went out to Masters Billiards in Queens because I just KNEW that I would be able to hook up with people who would be drivng down to Jersey the next day. To my shock and dismay, NOT ONE of the many people that I knew and spoke to had plans to attend the event. It's not that they didn't know about it, they just didn't want to go to the trouble! One person in particular who loves straight pool (he always wants to play it whenever we meet each other) said, "You must REALLY have a jones for the game, Professor. As much as I love it, I ain't traveling all the way to East Brunswick to watch it." And it was a hassle to get there, since I had to get a train to New Brunswick and then catch a taxi from there to East Brunswick. My transportation costs alone turned out to be $40 a day. But it was entirely worth it.

The event was well run, the level of play and of professionalism on the part of the players was extremely high, and everything was top notch. Kudos to Dragon Promotions, Randy Goldwater and Joel Schapiro (with whom I had a great conversation!) on putting together a wonderful event, and I'll find a way to attend the next one. One thing though--one of the previous posters told the absolute truth. The room was f--king FREEZING! I even started a rumor that the organizers must have been getting a kickback from the gift shop downstairs that was selling sweatshirts!

The bottom line, however, is that we the pool players have to show interest in supporting our events before we can even begin to expect anyone else to do so. I met a guy from Oklahoma who spend close to $2,000 just to watch this event, and players from the surrounding area can't be bothered to attend? C'mon folks! Charity begins at home!

 

[cuetable]

The bottom line, however, is that we the pool players have to show interest in supporting our events before we can even begin to expect anyone else to do so. I met a guy from Oklahoma who spend close to $2,000 just to watch this event, and players from the surrounding area can't be bothered to attend? C'mon folks! Charity begins at home!

Well said Professor.

Too bad we didn't meet. I'd be happy to give you a ride. I actually had trouble finding people to drive down with me because most of my die-hard 14.1 friends are already there. I did drive a great friend back at the end and we had a great conversation about the event for 40 minutes.

Just for future reference, there is a bus leaving every 30 min. between the Port Authority bus terminal and the Hilton Hotel.

 

[mthornto]

The bottom line, however, is that we the pool players have to show interest in supporting our events before we can even begin to expect anyone else to do so. I met a guy from Oklahoma who spend close to $2,000 just to watch this event, and players from the surrounding area can't be bothered to attend? C'mon folks! Charity begins at home!

This brings up something I have wondered about. If you had to pick a "straight pool capital of the world", NYC would be it. That said, for two years now, with the tournament held in NYC's back yard, reported attendance has been poor. I do not know, so I will ask: would the event be cheaper if held someplace else?

If holding the event in the NYC area is not helping the event cover its costs, could it be moved? What about someplace in the Midwest or Southeast? Seems that most of the players are flying in anyhow, so no real inconvenience there and if the hotel is cheaper it would actually help. Since the fans from NYC are not showing up, no loss there either.

I fear that if there is not a way found to decrease the losses we may not have a world straight pool championship for many years.

 

[Deadon]

this year the payouts increased, in total, by more than 50%. Also, this year, half of the field received a check. This was doubled from last year, as only the top 16 cashed. There was also a 500% increase for the high run. Last year only the high run leader got paid. This year, the 2nd place high run recieved more than last years 1st place leader.

All in all, i think these players understand that this event only survives because of private sponsorship. The numbers aren't in, but its I my a matter of time before we find out how much money was lost this year. Last year was a disaster. This year won't be as bad because it wasn't filmed.

Part of the reason was very poor attnedance again. Its pretty sad that straight pool, although it does have it's hard core supporters, no longer appeals to the general pool playing community.

The original idea was that this event could become selfsustaining after a few years. Now we see that this isn't possible and the future of this event is certainly in jeapordy.


Randy Goldwater

Randy;

I'm sure all of us hard core players appreciate everything that has been done to promote this, and many other tournaments.

Along with other ideas given, I would suggest that perhaps another forum would be better. Perhaps an area a little more economically beneficial to people that would like to attend. While many of us can afford to spend a week in NYC, many can't, but a week in say, Virginia for example, is a much better possibility. While it not only makes it easier for the fans, it could also help keep your expenses lower. Lower expenses is a key to enticing the pool community to attend an event. Lots of large Casinos make deals also. Attendance builds interest, interest builds sponsors and sponsors make events happen.

Thanks again.

Mike

 

[9balllvr]

obviuosly, JAM, we spoke at length with accustats before last years event, and their "demands" were outrageous. I have covered this before in past threads, but all i will say here is that they wanted to either CO-OWN the event or be paid a flat fee that was tantamount to USURY!!! very disappointing to say the least. Thats all I'll say about accustats.

I think there is some merit to what has been said about marketing. But at what cost. No one here, including the sponsors and promoters are looking to porfit from this event. The significant money posted from the private sponsorship is DONATED, with no expectation of any return. What we would like is to raise enough money from the event for it to become selfsustaining. So how much to risk for absolutely no possibility of return? Should someone post another 50k to the event to promote, and then have a paltry turnout? That would only have to happen once, and I assure you that it would be the last. As someone suggested, they mortaged their home to sustain a business. But.... eventually you expected a profit. We don't.

I am doing this because I love this game. But how many 10's and 10's of thousands of dollars should be at risk, without reaching the goal of being self sustaining?

rg

Ps. Of course the media was alerted. They DON'T care!!!!!!! not even a little bit. Not sure if any of you are on dragon promotions mailing list, but there were perhaps 2 dozen press releases leading up to this event. They automatically go to all the regional media, news and sports channnels!

here is a thought that is not extremely costly and could reach many people - putting out flyers, etc. many months ahead of time at some of the biggest pool events, through the leagues, etc. you have many major events throughout the year - the US Open, DCC, Valley Forge, Vegas, Turning Stone, etc. etc. that bring in many players and fans. just to have an advanced plan of attack may help. i would assume you guys plan this out a year in advance. word of mouth is major advertisement at a low cost.

just as JAM said, this is not meant to be critism toward all of you that put your love of the game and funds into this event - just suggestions to make next year better.

9balllvr

 

[PoolSharkAllen]

just as JAM said, this is not meant to be criticism toward all of you that put your love of the game and funds into this event - just suggestions to make next year better.

9balllvr

I also want to say that I too appreciate what you and others have done for the game.

The suggestions that I have made are made with the intent of trying to encourage everyone to take a different approach to solving the problems facing pool.

 

[jay helfert]

Those who remember the L.A. Opens of the early 90's may also remember large crowds in attendance. As many as 1,500 people for the Friday and Saturday night matches. How did this happen?

Well what worked for us was literally doing EVERYTHING! And I mean everything. We started with the regular PR and advertising in the billiard media. Then we got a list of over 300 pool related businesses in a 200 mile radius of Los Angeles. We sent flyers and discount coupons to all these locations. In the larger establishments, I personally put up posters and gave a few passes to the employees to help get the word out.

I hired Dave Thomson to do PR and he contacted all the local media. No fewer than five local television stations had us on their evening news, and two of them did features from the event. Thank you Dave. We spent $15,000 in media advertising in the local newspapers. A one-eighth page Ad in the L.A. Times was over $3,000 alone. But the two days it ran, the phone rang off the hook.

We were in all local newspapers up to 50 miles away with at least one Ad. And finally, I faxed the daily results to the Times and two other major newspapers and they ran them for us each day. Yes, I had to spoon feed it to them, and call the sports editor in advance and woo him. But, lo and behold, IT WORKED!

So it can be done. It just takes some money and some effort. Bottom line, the events did not make money, because we just spent too much. There was major added money along with the other expenses. But the "gate" saved us, $77,000 alone at the 1992 L.A. Open. If not for that, we would have taken a real bath. Our total nut was nearly 130K.

I even went so far as to put up posters on telephone poles and other places near the Burbank Convention Center where the event was held. Every little bit helps. I am a firm believer that you must spend money to make money.

This is no way meant to be criticism of anyone else's event. It is just a chronology of what worked for us in getting media attention, and thus good attendance. It can be done. There are people out there who like to see skillful athletes in any sport.