World Cup Of Pool (9-14 May2021) $250K Prizemoney

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
Exactly right. Josh Filler's match at the 2020 DCC Bigfoot with Lee Van Corteza was, arguably, decided by two fluked ten balls by Lee in the last few racks. Perhaps the rolls that cost Josh back then were paid back in spades today by the pool gods. Credit to Filler for acknowledging his good luck today and showing great sportsmanship in apologizing to Appleton and Boyes in the post-match interview, but as Albin Ouschan noted, that's nine ball.

Call shot was a factor in the death of the straight pool era. I always hated having to listen to the referee announce the shot, sometimes failing to even hear it, and even then the referee rarely announced the pocket. As bad as that was, straight pool on television was even worse.

Snooker is not call shot, and yes sometimes wild things happen, but so what? Mark Selby had a major fluke in the semifinals of the World Snooker Championships near the end that largely spelt the end of Bingham's chance to advance to the final. Luck is a significant part of every sport worth watching, and it's part of what makes us watch. Good efforts are often penalized and bad efforts are rewarded in sports. Good efforts will, on average offer better results, and that's good enough for me.

As a fan, if I watch nine ball, I know the shooter's intent on every shot, specifically to hit the lowest numbered ball and pocket something or gain a defensive result. Nobody needs to explain or announce anything. Texas Express rules are very fan friendly, and in my opinion, ten ball will never replace nine ball as the primary tournament rotation game unless it drops the call shot requirement.

To loosely quote Irving Crane, "you may not get half the rolls today, but over a pool lifetime, you'll get half the rolls and that's good enough."

Of course, I do understand that any time popular players are the victims of bad luck, the forum will rise up in favor of call shot, but call shot just doesn't work when it comes to streamed or televised pool. .
Call shot is stupid for anything but straight pool and banks. You don't need it in 8 ball, you don't need it in 9 ball and you don't need it for 10 ball.

It takes away from the game rather than add to it.
 

AtLarge

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
... There was a comment that Team X kept choosing Player Y to shoot the hard shots, which I didn't understand at the time. With the non-breaking team having the choice of order, I can see how that would be possible.
It's that way at the Mosconi Cup as well.
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
I wonder if the shooting order on a pushout in pairs play is specified somewhere in writing. A "you shoot it" after a pushout in pairs competition can be considered either passing the shot to the other player of the pair or having the pusher shoot again. For singles the problem isn't apparent unless you are counting innings.
Bob, the "pushout" is the one time where the same player (in doubles) may shoot twice in a row. If you are the player who pushes out and the opposing team asks you to shoot again it is still your shot.
 

sjm

Sweating it at Derby City
Silver Member
Bob, the "pushout" is the one time where the same player (in doubles) may shoot twice in a row. If you are the player who pushes out and the opposing team asks you to shoot again it is still your shot.
That's the only way I've ever seen it played, although I have no idea what the rule says.

A related issue is whether a push out, if not given back, is an inning at the table. Does such a push out figure in any way in TPA computations?
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
... Does such a push out figure in any way in TPA computations?
It seems to me that if you give the shot back and they make the ball, it should count as an error. ... Well, according to the Accu-Stats TPA explanation, it seems that pushing and passing are both counted as safes, and I think safes only affect the TPA if the opponent pockets a ball or a makeable shot is left.


SAFETY ERROR: A player plays a safety and his opponent pockets a ball during his next turn at the table OR misses a shot that is easier than a spot shot. If, immediately after a safety, the opponent kicks the first ball in, no safety error will be charged.
 
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sjm

Sweating it at Derby City
Silver Member
It seems to me that if you give the shot back and they make the ball, it should count as an error. ... Well, according to the Accu-Stats TPA explanation, it seems that pushing and passing are both counted as safes, and I think safes only affect the TPA if the opponent pockets a ball or a makeable shot is left.


SAFETY ERROR: A player plays a safety and his opponent pockets a ball during his next turn at the table OR misses a shot that is easier than a spot shot. If, immediately after a safety, the opponent kicks the first ball in, no safety error will be charged.
Thanks for the clarification, Bob.
 

Swighey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Call shot is stupid for anything but straight pool and banks. You don't need it in 8 ball, you don't need it in 9 ball and you don't need it for 10 ball.

It takes away from the game rather than add to it.
You don't need it in straight pool or banks. But it adds to the game. Same for 8,9 and 10.
 

BeiberLvr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
No way I'd ever beat Thorpe in a game of banks, but I sure would like my chances a little more if I didn't have to call my shots.
 

Swighey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
No way I'd ever beat Thorpe in a game of banks, but I sure would like my chances a little more if I didn't have to call my shots.
Yep, same for all.games against the better player. If slop is good enough for 8, 9 and 10 then it's good enough for straight and banks. Likewise, if call shot is good for straight and banks then it's good for 8, 9 and 10.
 

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
Yep, same for all.games against the better player. If slop is good enough for 8, 9 and 10 then it's good enough for straight and banks. Likewise, if call shot is good for straight and banks then it's good for 8, 9 and 10.
You can't play without call shot in straight pool, because everyone would just power break. It would ruin the entire concept of the game. It's a completely different concept than most other pool games. It probably COULD be played with call shot only the breakshots, but really it's less complicated to just have call shot all around.

8, 9 and 10 ball are different. There is an art and creativity to the 2-way shot that gets lost with call shot. In general it's rare to win due to flukes, and if you do, it's generally a tight match anyway. Your'e not going to win by just blasting into clusters, and people generally know what you're trying to do almost every time. It seems sort of silly to have to announce what you're going to do in a sport. it's like playing football and having to stop to announce to the crowd what you are doing. "OK, now I'm going to run 10 meters and pass to the forward". WTF is that all about, it's something you'd do in a magic show, not a sport. I should't have to explain myself every time I do something. If I was required to announce every shot in straight pool audibly, I'd most likely quit, to be honest, it's so God damned annoying. Also I really don't want to announce everything I'm thinking while competing, I'm not instructing you, we're competing. In banks, the game is more or less a trick shot competition, so it makes more sense to have call shot there. Also, I don't have to play it, ever, and I don't.

Have you ever played call-safe 10 ball? If you haven't I think you should. It's dreadful. The most boring, soul destroying game ever created. Watching it for even 10 minutes can make you suicidal. I can't convey to you, with mere words, how awful the playing experience is, and it pales in comparison to watching the thing. It's like doing your taxes, while getting a root canal and listening to country music where the singer sings off key, simultaneously. All creativity is completely lost from the game and it has as much substance as a spot-shot competition.
 
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Swighey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You can't play without call shot in straight pool, because everyone would just power break. It would ruin the entire concept of the game. It's a completely different concept than most other pool games. It probably COULD be played with call shot only the breakshots, but really it's less complicated to just have call shot all around.

8, 9 and 10 ball are different. There is an art and creativity to the 2-way shot that gets lost with call shot. In general it's rare to win due to flukes, and if you do, it's generally a tight match anyway. Your'e not going to win by just blasting into clusters, and people generally know what you're trying to do almost every time. It seems sort of silly to have to announce what you're going to do in a sport. it's like playing football and having to stop to announce to the crowd what you are doing. "OK, now I'm going to run 10 meters and pass to the forward". WTF is that all about, it's something you'd do in a magic show, not a sport. In banks, the game is more or less a trick shot competition, so it makes more sense.

Have you ever played call-safe 10 ball? If you haven't I think you should. It's dreadful. The most boring, sould destroying game ever created. Watching it for even 10 minutes can make you suicidal. I can't convey to you, with mere words, how awful the playing experience is, and it pales in comparison to watching the thing. It's like doing your taxes, while getting a root canal and listening to country music where the singer sings off key, simultaneously. All creativity is completely lost from the game and it has as much substance as a spot-shot competition.
The straight pool power break thingy is easily fixed. Play it like Sinuca (Brazilian snooker) where you are not allowed to pot on the break. You sink a ball, it's ball in hand to your opponent with the balls set up for an easy clearance. Nobody is going to smash the balls.

There certainly is an art to the 2 way shot in 8,9 and 10 but there could also be the same art in straight pool.

With call shot there are also two way shots, they are different in nature but they are still two way shots.

Call-safe? It's not really relevant here.
 

skogstokig

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You can't play without call shot in straight pool, because everyone would just power break. It would ruin the entire concept of the game. It's a completely different concept than most other pool games. It probably COULD be played with call shot only the breakshots, but really it's less complicated to just have call shot all around.

8, 9 and 10 ball are different. There is an art and creativity to the 2-way shot that gets lost with call shot. In general it's rare to win due to flukes, and if you do, it's generally a tight match anyway. Your'e not going to win by just blasting into clusters, and people generally know what you're trying to do almost every time. It seems sort of silly to have to announce what you're going to do in a sport. it's like playing football and having to stop to announce to the crowd what you are doing. "OK, now I'm going to run 10 meters and pass to the forward". WTF is that all about, it's something you'd do in a magic show, not a sport. I should't have to explain myself every time I do something. If I was required to announce every shot in straight pool audibly, I'd most likely quit, to be honest, it's so God damned annoying. Also I really don't want to announce everything I'm thinking while competing, I'm not instructing you, we're competing. In banks, the game is more or less a trick shot competition, so it makes more sense to have call shot there. Also, I don't have to play it, ever, and I don't.

Have you ever played call-safe 10 ball? If you haven't I think you should. It's dreadful. The most boring, soul destroying game ever created. Watching it for even 10 minutes can make you suicidal. I can't convey to you, with mere words, how awful the playing experience is, and it pales in comparison to watching the thing. It's like doing your taxes, while getting a root canal and listening to country music where the singer sings off key, simultaneously. All creativity is completely lost from the game and it has as much substance as a spot-shot competition.

i don't fully agree, but you made your point well enough lol

regarding the specific act of announcing the pocket i always just point with the cue if it's needed. i don't want to get out of rhythm by talking.
 

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
The straight pool power break thingy is easily fixed. Play it like Sinuca (Brazilian snooker) where you are not allowed to pot on the break. You sink a ball, it's ball in hand to your opponent with the balls set up for an easy clearance. Nobody is going to smash the balls.

There certainly is an art to the 2 way shot in 8,9 and 10 but there could also be the same art in straight pool.

With call shot there are also two way shots, they are different in nature but they are still two way shots.

Call-safe? It's not really relevant here.
I feel I didn't explain myself properly regarding straight pool. Now in pool, every game has what we can call a "central limitation" which gives it it's character and identity as well as add interesting strategy. Due to the pool tables size and pocket size, just pocketing balls randomly into pockets is too easy and uninteresting. So we have "pocketing balls in rotation", only "one suit of balls and then the 8 last" and for straight pool "call shot". That is pretty much the only limitation in the game. So cutting it out would change it completely. I maintain that the game could be played without it, but it would be completely different on a level where cutting call shot in 8 ball wouldn't.
 
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Swighey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I feel I didn't explain myself properly regarding straight pool. Now in pool, every game has what we can call a "central limitation" which gives it it's character and identity as well as add interesting strategy. Due to the pool tables size and pocket size, just pocketing balls randomly into pockets is too easy and uninteresting. So we have "pocketing balls in rotation", only "one suit of balls and then the 8 last" and for straight pool "call shot". That is pretty much the only limitation in the game. So cutting it out would change it completely. I maintain that the game could be played without it, but it would be completely different on a level where cutting call shot in 8 ball wouldn't.
Yeah I get that. My point is that it can be played non-call.shot. I also maintain that 8 ball is a much better game call shot than non-call shot for similar reasons. Straight pool is a better game in so many ways but 8 (and 9 and 10) are real pool games too and deserve to be played call.shot.
 

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
Yeah I get that. My point is that it can be played non-call.shot. I also maintain that 8 ball is a much better game call shot than non-call shot for similar reasons. Straight pool is a better game in so many ways but 8 (and 9 and 10) are real pool games too and deserve to be played call.shot.
Usually, games die when the "central limitation" is too easily defeated. In the beginning, more and more limitations are added until the game becomes a complicated, unwatchable mess. Then nobody plays it anymore. It happened to straight rail, then balkline and English billiards. I don't think modern pool games are really at a point where limitations have to be added. The art of inventing a simple, yet interesting central limitation or defining characteristic of a pool game is really difficult. We should be careful about messing with them. At the same time, it's a virtue to keep games simple. When games become too complicated, they usually become less interesting to watch.
 

Swighey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The "central limitation" of straight pool is not call shot. It is pot the balls in any order and use yoir last ball to break the 14 re-racked balls and go again. It's played call shot because that adds to the game. Same with 8 ball when it's played by players who take the game seriously. Nobody plays straight pool in a bar on a coin-op, hence the difference.
 

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
The "central limitation" of straight pool is not call shot. It is pot the balls in any order and use yoir last ball to break the 14 re-racked balls and go again. It's played call shot because that adds to the game. Same with 8 ball when it's played by players who take the game seriously. Nobody plays straight pool in a bar on a coin-op, hence the difference.
Agree that leaving the last ball out may be the central limitation, but call shot is IMO part of it.

I play blackball and Chinese 8 ball. They're both perfectly playable without call shot, and believe me I take both games seriously. But to be honest, I find call-shot in 8 ball less annoying than in 10 ball. I still think the game is better without it, but I can live with it in 8 ball. I don't think I'd ever play call shot 9 ball. If I had a choice then I'd play 10 ball instead. I just like the break and the increased number of balls.
 
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Swighey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Agree that leaving the last ball out may be the central limitation, but call shot is IMO part of it.

I play blackball and Chinese 8 ball. They're both perfectly playable without call shot.
Yes I agree they are. However, they would.be better if they were call shot. Chinese 8 ball used to be call shot, with a strict rule on the 8 where you had to call the shot even it was obvious. They changed it, in their words to "increase the luck'. I'm yet to see an instance of this change having a positive impact on a match.
 

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
Yes I agree they are. However, they would.be better if they were call shot. Chinese 8 ball used to be call shot, with a strict rule on the 8 where you had to call the shot even it was obvious. They changed it, in their words to "increase the luck'. I'm yet to see an instance of this change having a positive impact on a match.
I can't find the video, but in a Challenge of Champions pool tournament, the rule was that you had to call the nine. Efren forgot to call a hanger and lost a game. It's not supposed to be about that sort of thing and avoiding bullcrap like that is important to preserve the fairness and structure of the game.

Taking out call shot also removes the possibility of the opponent either misunderstanding your call or maliciously pretending not to have heard you call it or to not have seen you point the cue or whatever you did to call it. I've had people do both of those things to me. Strickland had an incident where he accidentally called the wrong ball, even though it was obvious which ball he was shooting. It's better to just avoid this whole problem all together.
 

Swighey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't recall the Efren incident but that sounds like appalling refereeing. The incident with Earl was unfortunate and probably a mistake but the fault lies with Earl because he knows the rules and called the wrong ball. If he had immediately put his hands up there was a chance he would have been allowed to play on. As it passed, he came across as an ass and so be it.

These things happen rarely, as do ridiculous flukes in non-call shot. Neither is desirable but good rules are.
I can't find the video, but in a Challenge of Champions pool tournament, the rule was that you had to call the nine. Efren forgot to call a hanger and lost a game. It's not supposed to be about that sort of thing and avoiding bullcrap like that is important to preserve the fairness and structure of the game.

Taking out call shot also removes the possibility of the opponent either misunderstanding your call or maliciously pretending not to have heard you call it or to not have seen you point the cue or whatever you did to call it. I've had people do both of those things to me. Strickland had an incident where he accidentally called the wrong ball, even though it was obvious which ball he was shooting. It's better to just avoid this whole problem all together.
 
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