Would you pay top dollar for a CNC'd cue?

[rackmup]

Well said and if you haven't seen Bryan's cues, you should give him a look.

Regards,

Ken (all that machinist stuff made my head hurt but Bryan can build a nice cue)

 

[cuemasterpieces]

Thanks Bryan

The question being posed is interesting and perpetuates the classic debate of "CNC versus spliced points."

I have been building cues since 1995 and have used a wide range of equipment. Over the years I have always been looking into ways to improve the quality of my work, some of these improvements come through refinements in the building process while others come from equipment or tooling. The thing I want to stress is that the improvement was not automatic due to the fact that I had a better machine; I had to understand how to get the most out of it. The idea that a person can sit in front of a machine, push a button and a cue comes out the other end is sadly in the wrong.

Recently I have been spending a great deal of time studying and learning the use of some CNC equipment (a vertical machining center and turning center). Learning how to properly set up, and program these machines is no small task. The other step is actually creating the inlay in CAD software. This is another large step that has to be over come. The particular program I use is extremely complicated and is capable of doing extraordinary things. Most of things are hard for the average cue buying consumer to appreciate but as a machinist concerned with quality it is very impressive to me. My education with these CNC machines have made me a better machinist overall.

That being said I feel that there is more to the answer than saying spliced point cues have more value than CNC inlayed cues. I have been learning all these new facets of machining to make a better cue. I will produce less than 100 cues a year and have no intentions of appealing to the mass market. I want to offer the highest quality period and CNC machinery has been the logical progression in machine tools for me. The spliced point still has a place with my work.

The spliced point is a classic design that appeals to many players & collectors. This type of inlay is said to be created by “hand,” it is not. Typically a dedicated machine is used. It has one job and that is to cut a 90 degree slot into the front of a cue. The machine is indexed to the next position and the process is repeated. This same simple milling job can be preformed on a lathe, horizontal mill, vertical mill, pantograph and various CNC versions of the latter. I want to use the most reliable and accurate method available to do my inlay. I have used a pantograph that required moving a stylus around a template to trace the pattern into wood. It was a painfully slow & tedious process that could only yield limited results.

I feel designs with spliced points and CNC are not mutually exclusive. They are sometimes used together with great success. The idea that because a point is sharp somehow makes it better than a well executed CNC inlay is lost on me. I feel both have there place and they are simply two different ways of placing an inlay into a cue. When I am using a CNC mill I am expanding my range of potential designs and the accuracy in which they are produced.

Many cue makers use special machines to create the taper & size of their shafts. These machines are automatic for the most part but you don’t hear people criticizing them for not cutting there shafts down by “hand.” Obviously if you have a winning taper you want to reproduce it accurately time and again. The work in setting up and running these machines (manual or CNC) is a hands on experience. Either can be botched or well executed at any point in cue making process. I think looking at and playing with the finished product will answer the question be asked.

For me CNC machine tools have opened a door into a world of high precision machining that can not be achieved by other means. I use these machines not only for inlay but to create the highest quality parts for my cues. Examples include ferrules, slotted rings, and phenolic rings. As far as inlay design the only limitations are my imagination. So CNC just adds to my abilities. It requires study and understanding just like any other machine tool. The cost for getting involved with CNC is high both in learning and expense of tooling. In the end “buying what you like,” is the bottom line. I just want people to understand there is more to it that the simplicity of the “spliced point versus CNC” debate.

Bryan Mordt

Thanks a lot Bryan for this backgroundinformations
Would it be possible to show some Detailpictures from your "work in progress" on a Cue about the thinks you talked about ??

Best Regards
Berny

 

[Gerry]

I may have a different perspective from the average player. For the record my player right now is a Schon stl17 and thats because the cue hits PERFECT for me. There are probably 10 thousand cues out there that hit just as well.

I used to work in a machine shop with the old style card/tape and hand milling machines...no computer guidance! and there was an art to setting those machines up and that same art is used today setting up a "CNC" machine. These machines can ONLY do a job that the operator instructs it to do!

I collect a few cues here and there, but ALL of them are great players FIRST. As you can tell I'm MUCH more concerned with how a cue plays, then how it was built. Yes, I have played with "not so pretty" cues that hit a ton.

That being said.....anyone have a plain 4 pointer Szamboti for sale?

Gerry

 

[arsenius]

For me, it's not the fact that CNCing was done by a machine. People use machines every time they build anything. But the fact that things don't come out sharp bothers me. I would rather see a sharp inlay with a tiny gap, than a gapless inlay that is rounded (due limitations of the tools). It doesn't bother me when someone takes the limitations of CNC into account in their design using inlays. But when someone just tries to replicate nice sharp points with a CNC machine it is a big turnoff for me.

 

[TheBook]

A stamping plant I worked at bought a coordinate measuring machine from Germany. The demonstration of the machine had a Corvette set up on the surface plate. The operator pushed a button and the machine went to work and measured every coordinate on the car. Damn that was really slick. You put in 2 coordinates and the machine would read the 3rd.

We bought and installed the machine. The plant manager came in wanted a fender measured. He wanted to lay a fender on the plate and push a button to get the readings. Did not happen. It took the operators a few years of training plus hours of set up time to be able to do that. Just because it is done by a computer there is still skill and set up.

 

[SteveFromNY]

sharp points make me happy, so no CNCed cue for me.

 

[Ant812]

i hate rounded points, and the more a cue costs that have them, the more i hate them.

 

[CrownCityCorey]

I just want a concensus.
Pls no peeing contest.
This is a question to collectors and players.
Do you mind if the inlays and/or points in your cues were CNC'd?
Do you prefer them being manually cut on a manual machine?
Or you could give's a rat's jazz as long as they are pretty?
Assuming the cue hits fine of course.
If it's pretty and hits like a noodle and has more buzzes than a bumble bee, what good is it?

Is the following qualifications are met, my answer is I would pay top$$$:

I like the way the cue plays
I like the cues appearance
The cue was made by a reputable builder/maker

If the above are true, of course I would pay.

I have done so in the past when Bill Stroud made a cue for me (now owned by TATE).

 

[Hidy Ho]

...
Or you could give's a rat's jazz as long as they are pretty?
...

Why is everybody picking on me?

 

[CaptiveBred]

this is a repost of mine on this subject

I'm with macguy on the value. Its my number one problem with computerized cues... They should cost less because they require less labor to produce...

I don't mind if computers are used in certain aspects of the process. When computers are used for the aesthetics, it becomes a joke. "Joke" because its funny to hear people raving about inlays, points, and design work like their builder is the apex cue builder. It always makes me chuckle since they have no, or little, clue about how easy it is to design with cnc.

Ya, I said it! It is EASY to use cnc and design with it. The only people who don't agree with me have never used modern cnc tools. Learning a new video game requires more memory storage in your brain than good cnc programs. Some people just don't realize it and overrespect the artisan making the cues...

IMO, a quaility cnc cue maker will always sharpen up his work. He will never leave points or other inlays round unless the customer wants it that way. It is just lazy to let the cpu cut out the patterns then just glue em in and turn em down to finish. Pure lazy practice for a top dollar cue. Something like a production McDermott? Sure, leave em round and charge less...


High price cues are considered an art and thats why the "artists" charge more and their customers agree with the price. Based on that statement, lets look and the price difference between paintings, lithographs (printing press duplicates) and photographs.

If an artist was commissioned to hand paint a picture of Karen Corr wearing a tank top, what would that cost?

After the artist painted the picture, he sent it to a printing company to have liths made of it. How much should the infinite supply of prints sell for?

Lets go one step further. The same artist is to lazy to paint the pic so he does this - He takes a digital photo, uses photoshop to make it look like a painting, then sends it to the printer to make lithos to sell. Are those worth as much as the others or an original painting?


Cues can be thought of in the same way when it comes to computers... The painting crowd understands how to price artists works of art. Cue collectors are very uneducated, compared the the painting crowds, on how to value one piece of work compared to another. Seems like "looks" is the only thing most cue buyers ever think about...

 

[Ant812]

I'm with macguy on the value. Its my number one problem with computerized cues... They should cost less because they require less labor to produce...

I don't mind if computers are used in certain aspects of the process. When computers are used for the aesthetics, it becomes a joke. "Joke" because its funny to hear people raving about inlays, points, and design work like their builder is the apex cue builder. It always makes me chuckle since they have no, or little, clue about how easy it is to design with cnc.

Ya, I said it! It is EASY to use cnc and design with it. The only people who don't agree with me have never used modern cnc tools. Learning a new video game requires more memory storage in your brain than good cnc programs. Some people just don't realize it and overrespect the artisan making the cues...

IMO, a quaility cnc cue maker will always sharpen up his work. He will never leave points or other inlays round unless the customer wants it that way. It is just lazy to let the cpu cut out the patterns then just glue em in and turn em down to finish. Pure lazy practice for a top dollar cue. Something like a production McDermott? Sure, leave em round and charge less...


High price cues are considered an art and thats why the "artists" charge more and their customers agree with the price. Based on that statement, lets look and the price difference between paintings, lithographs (printing press duplicates) and photographs.

If an artist was commissioned to hand paint a picture of Karen Corr wearing a tank top, what would that cost?

After the artist painted the picture, he sent it to a printing company to have liths made of it. How much should the infinite supply of prints sell for?

Lets go one step further. The same artist is to lazy to paint the pic so he does this - He takes a digital photo, uses photoshop to make it look like a painting, then sends it to the printer to make lithos to sell. Are those worth as much as the others or an original painting?


Cues can be thought of in the same way when it comes to computers... The painting crowd understands how to price artists works of art. Cue collectors are very uneducated, compared the the painting crowds, on how to value one piece of work compared to another. Seems like "looks" is the only thing most cue buyers ever think about...

WELL SAID!

 

[Deadon]

The question being posed is interesting and perpetuates the classic debate of "CNC versus spliced points."

I have been building cues since 1995 and have used a wide range of equipment. .......

........... In the end “buying what you like,” is the bottom line. I just want people to understand there is more to it that the simplicity of the “spliced point versus CNC” debate.

Bryan Mordt

Hi Bryan;

Aside from playability, which is the primary goal for most players, the appearance of the cue is the most important. I have many of both types.

But, I think your missing the idea of craftsmanship, which some people are looking at when buying a cue. It is one thing to set up and do everything buy hand, another to use CAD and programs to do the work. The second is not universally accept as craftsmanship, and I believe rightfully so.

While this new CNC process produces repeatable and precise products as you claim and seem to be trying to reach, the craftsman creates a single unique piece, because of the human element. There is always some small minor difference in every cue, regardless of model or maker. That is what makes "my cue" different that every one else that has a similar cue. It is hand made and human fallable. Example, I have an older Mottey that has a mistake in it, very small but still a mistake if brought to Paul's attention. It makes the cue unique. In woodcrafting and other arts, it is sometimes that mistake that sets off the unique masterpiece from the everyday piece.

Almost every thing we buy, is more cherished and valuable, if done by hand. Hand made funiture, cars.. etc.

In cues. A simple test. A four prong plain player. CNC or spliced? As a business person, what do you think you could sell first, assuming they play equally? OTOH, CNC gives great latitude in design and originality. You can put more stuff in a cue with CNC, which is often overdone, but cuemakers like Ernie G. do a wonderfull job of maintaining a balance.

Myself, I still think I appreciate more the craftsmanship put into a spliced cue, but the pure beauty of some CNC'd cues is hard to ignore.

Mike

 

[DJKeys]

Rick Chudy also has some beautiful designs done with CNC-

 

[jimmymac]

I love the look of sliced points, was just talking with Chad (Carter Cues) regarding this, this past weekend. There are cue makers out there that are doing work on a cnc, and there really getting harder to tell apart. The point work is getting better all the time. If it is such a big deal, your really going to have to know alot about the cue maker. To me beautiful cue is still a work of art. However it is a little better feeling to know more time and effort is put into it the old fashion way. Especially when there's big $$$$ for the finished product. Just my view!!

 

[metal5d]

You can make sharp points without ever touching a cue by hand other than gluing in the materials. I don't think people realize that just because points are sharp that does not mean a cuemaker spent hours splicing in the materials by hand.

I want my cues to be perfect. That means the points are all the exact same length and spaced equally apart and each inlay is the same and spaced the same. The only way to do this is with a machine.

There are many tricks to get inlays sharp and CNC can still be used as part of the process. I think people would have a difficult time telling the difference on many cues.

 

[hangemhigh]

You can hide the radius a cnc pocket leaves if the cue is Ebony. Really good craftsmen can put a razor sharp inlay in Ebony and you would never know a cnc machine was used.No radius,no glue lines,all because you can hide 'em in Ebony.You can't pull off a full spliced cue with just a cnc machine,just the inlays in the cue. As long as the construction is full spliced,the cnc can be used with no ill effects.With Short splices,cored,and other types of construction the cnc has no ill effects either.The problem is the radius,which you will never get rid of,thus the rounded points.

One of my pet peeves is the ringwork not lining up, as Metal5D mentioned. I have seen McDaniel take extreme measures to ensure the ringwork on the cue and all of the shafts are in perfect alignment. This, in my opinion,is one of the factors that seperates the men from the boys.

 

[cueandcushion]

What is top dollar?

I think it all depends on the person and what they believe is top dollar. I have a cue with no points where all the inlays are done CNC. It's a $2500 cue. Some people think that is medium priced, some think its high dollar and some people have never owned a car that expensive. For me personally it doesnt depend on price but on what type of cue I want. If I am having a cuemaker duplicate a Balabushka design, I want it spliced no matter what. More important to me is that it plays well and that the cuemaker stands behind his work. I personally like my points spliced if they have veneers on them. After that I dont really care how much CNC work is in the cue.

And what will everyone do...
once they have a computer that splices 4 veneer points perfect every time?

 

[DaveK]

I think it all depends on the person and what they believe is top dollar.

Good comment. I'll add that the original poster was likely speaking of 2003 dollars, but it's 2007 now, so add a bit for inflation

Dave

 

[Purdman]

My .02

I worked in a shop of a well known cuemaker. I ran a machine that turned four cues or four shafts at a time. This cuemaker made this machine. A computor controled everything except loading and unloading the wood. I worked on his sneaky petes only. No inlay whatsoever. This cuemaker milled his own aluminum from stock, drilled all the holes, installed the bearings and all the little motors that ran everything. The guy is a genious.
Now, I also have a cue made by the same cuemaker that has 228 inlays. All CNC. He also made the three axis CNC machine himself. The maching might cut the inlays and pockets, however, the pockets must be cleaned up and the inlays must be inlayed properly. I can assure you it isn't an easy task to do 228 times on one cue. I also appriciate the CNC designs made by our own Skins and produced by Joe Gold, Bludworth and Keith Josey and others. There is some fantastic work out there. With the best cuemakers in the business using CNC: Ernie Guterize, Joe Gold, Bill Stroud, Tim Scruggs, etc, etc. Whats the problem? If it plays well, who cares? Go with what you like.
JMHO, Purdman

 

[Subsonic2u]

TAP TAP

Yes, There is a lot of work involved. Bill Dominiak is also makeing some very nice and great hitting CNC Qs. His new Electron line is great.

Charlie