Would You Still Gamble With This Guy?

skogstokig

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Calling it a soft break is probably not the best way to describe it. It was a safety break where no more than 1 or 2 balls hit the rail. The way it worked out, I either had to push and he had an advantage to do a lock up safe, or I could hit the lowest ball, but it was impossible to safe him. The games just worked out where I never had a good opportunity to safe him.


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i think i know the break, as it was utilized for a while before proper break rules were in place. it does favor the breaker if he is good enough to run out a congested rack. properly executed the opponent will be shooting from the bottom rail and most often push out, right?
 

Get_A_Grip

Truth Will Set You Free
Silver Member
i think i know the break, as it was utilized for a while before proper break rules were in place. it does favor the breaker if he is good enough to run out a congested rack. properly executed the opponent will be shooting from the bottom rail and most often push out, right?
Yep. Well, I think the first time I had to push out because I couldn't see the 1-ball. But I pushed the cue ball up table and he was able to thin the 1 ball and get behind the stack.

The second time I could thin the 1-ball from below the side of the stack and leave him up table where he again left me behind the stack.
 

markjames

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
we’ve all been there and ‘had to’ play against ‘that guy.’

truth is, we don’t ‘have to,’ but for whatever reason(s) just cannot seem to say ‘no.’

i would say move it to a 9ft table, stop giving him such a big spot, and only play for $100
 

Get_A_Grip

Truth Will Set You Free
Silver Member
we’ve all been there and ‘had to’ play against ‘that guy.’

truth is, we don’t ‘have to,’ but for whatever reason(s) just cannot seem to say ‘no.’

i would say move it to a 9ft table, stop giving him such a big spot, and only play for $100
Yeah, I do like to gamble and I normally have fun, win or lose. Because even giving huge spots, the matches are almost always really close and I have won about half the time. What ticked me off was for someone to pull that type of stuff knowing he has the best of it without needing to pull that crap. Never again with that guy. I should stick to what Fargo Rate says is a fair match at 7-6 and that's it. But he will NEVER do it. He's a nit and will only play with the best of it.
 

noMoreSchon

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yeah, I do like to gamble and I normally have fun, win or lose. Because even giving huge spots, the matches are almost always really close and I have won about half the time. What ticked me off was for someone to pull that type of stuff knowing he has the best of it without needing to pull that crap. Never again with that guy. I should stick to what Fargo Rate says is a fair match at 7-6 and that's it. But he will NEVER do it. He's a nit and will only play with the best of it.
You talk about fargo, and nits, but state that you are 50/50 with your opponent. I don't think you can get anymore 'fair' than that. You were out moved, and he even out shot his 540 fargo rate. You said it yourself, he played better than usual. The spot was exploited, was it messed up? Yes. But you have to respect the fact that he turned it on you, and you learned something from it. Don't be so upset about learning something, get back in the box with him, it will not work twice. Overcome and get that cash.
 

Get_A_Grip

Truth Will Set You Free
Silver Member
You talk about fargo, and nits, but state that you are 50/50 with your opponent. I don't think you can get anymore 'fair' than that. You were out moved, and he even out shot his 540 fargo rate. You said it yourself, he played better than usual. The spot was exploited, was it messed up? Yes. But you have to respect the fact that he turned it on you, and you learned something from it. Don't be so upset about learning something, get back in the box with him, it will not work twice. Overcome and get that cash.

Here's the difference. I play for the enjoyment of the game. I will never enjoy playing a game where someone safety breaks. So I won't play someone who needs to resort to that.

None of those games with huge spots were "fair". I out ran the nuts. But that can't last. The odds of continuing to give more weight than Fargo Rate predicts based on your ratings is a losing proposition over the long run. I know that.

If he agreed to play 7-6 with no safety breaks, fine. But he'll never do it. I'm being realistic about fair odds. But to give a huge spot and have a guy pull chicken sh!t moves on top of it, it's a challenge I'm going to pass on.


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jviss

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If only the UPA rules gives the break to the other player or an option to let the original breaker, re-break
They do!

3.0 LEGAL BREAK SHOT
For the break shot to be legal, the breaker (with the base of the cue ball placed anywhere behind the head string) must either pocket an object ball or drive at least three (3) object balls to one or more rails. If the breaker fails to make the legal break requirement, the balls will be re-racked and the opponent shall have the option of breaking, or requesting the offending player to break again.
 

fastone371

Certifiable
Silver Member
Breaking the rack open would have let him run out earlier. I fought the safety battle as good as I could. But as soon as the balls were open enough to run out, he ran out. I will admit, that he played better than he normally does that night. Every time the balls finally got open, he ran out both of the safety break racks.
Its easy to forget but sometimes when you cant play a good safety its better to take an intentional foul by tying up a pair (or more) of balls.
 

Get_A_Grip

Truth Will Set You Free
Silver Member
Its easy to forget but sometimes when you cant play a good safety its better to take an intentional foul by tying up a pair (or more) of balls.

That's true. I do that often actually. But this guy's goal was to just safe me to death anyway and try to 3 foul me. We did have a limited time because the place closes at 11pm. I did try to tell him that if he keeps breaking like that I could stall and if we don't finish it's on him. But to prevent from 3 fouling I had to hit the balls hard enough to hit a rail. So the balls opened up for him enough for him to run out both times and we finished on time.


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Get_A_Grip

Truth Will Set You Free
Silver Member
You should play him again and hope he pulls stuff like that again so you can practice remaining odorless, colorless, flavorless and just play your game.

If there was a next time, it would be with a full set of published rules where an illegal break gives me ball in hand. That would likely solve the safety break issue.


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Get_A_Grip

Truth Will Set You Free
Silver Member
They do!

3.0 LEGAL BREAK SHOT
For the break shot to be legal, the breaker (with the base of the cue ball placed anywhere behind the head string) must either pocket an object ball or drive at least three (3) object balls to one or more rails. If the breaker fails to make the legal break requirement, the balls will be re-racked and the opponent shall have the option of breaking, or requesting the offending player to break again.

Yeah. I see that now that it gives that option. In my mind at the time I was thinking that even if he rebroke, he would just hit slightly harder and I'd be in the same boat. Him rebreaking could have possibly made the rack even worse for me. 🤷‍♂️. Who knows.



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jviss

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yeah. I see that now that it gives that option. In my mind at the time I was thinking that even if he rebroke, he would just hit slightly harder and I'd be in the same boat. Him rebreaking could have possibly made the rack even worse for me. 🤷‍♂️. Who knows.



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O.K., that's enough now. Go tell him that you both made a mistake with the rules, you don't consider it a win but he can keep the money, and you'd like a chance to win it back: double the bet. Check him on the weight you give him. Print out the rules you plan to use. I recommend BCA. (These require four balls to hit a rail on the break.)
 

SBC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
At least now you have the motivation to play for a big score.

Make a game, like first to win 3 sets for as much as he will bet. Go in and be the boss.

Guys like this will fold when the heat is on.
 
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cueman

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I'm just curious what everyone thinks of this gambling story that happened last night after leagues. I've been gambling with this teammate many times before after our leagues. Normally between $50 and $100 a set. Based on our preliminary Fargo Ratings, I'm supposed to play him with me going to 7 and him going to 6. However, I've beat him in the past playing 8-ball at 5-3 and he gets all the breaks, at 6-3 winner breaks, and at 9-5 and he gets all of the breaks. He beat me at 9-5 winner breaks once by 1 game, and a couple other times playing 10 ball at 9-5 with him getting the 9 ball.

So last night I was playing really good. I won all 3 of my games with 2 table runs. This guy won all 3 games, but made a few mistakes. Because I felt good I decided I would play him and give him a spot again. We played 10-ball with me going to 7 and him going to 5, he gets the 10 ball, and he gets all of the breaks for $50.

He gets up 3-1 (including the spot) and he decides that he's not going to break the balls anymore. He just slowly rolled the cue ball into the rack where only 1 or 2 balls hit the rail. He did it on purpose. (An illegal break). The first time he did it, I grabbed the cue ball so I could break. Then he reminded me that he gets ALL THE BREAKS. So he took ball in hand and kept playing safeties behind the rack so I had to keep kicking at the 1 ball until the balls were open enough for him to run out.

He did this the last 2 games until he got to 5 games and won. I was obviously protesting that it was a chicken sh!t move and he admitted that why should he break them open and if he doesn't make a ball, then I could run out and catch up. He then said that he will do whatever he needs to do to win.

Well, my conclusion was that I mainly am playing for the fun of it and it's not enjoyable to play with someone who would do that. It's just not "pool" to me at all with that type of illegal soft break. I basically told him that "he blew it". I was giving him huge spots giving him a really good chance to win, because he would never play 7-6 like Fargo Rate says. And then with a big spot, he had to pull that move on top of it. So I said I wouldn't be playing him anymore.

What do you say? I'm also curious on what everyone thinks could have been done with an illegal break (3 balls or more didn't hit the rail) and he was getting all of the breaks? I didn't make him re-break, because he could have just re-broke until only 3 balls hit a rail and I would be in nearly the same spot.
If three foul rule was in. I would have taken ball in hand and rolled the cue ball off the one two rails into the back of the rack. If he misses the one ball tell him he is on two fouls, take ball in hand and do it again.
 

Get_A_Grip

Truth Will Set You Free
Silver Member
If three foul rule was in. I would have taken ball in hand and rolled the cue ball off the one two rails into the back of the rack. If he misses the one ball tell him he is on two fouls, take ball in hand and do it again.

Except I didn't have ball in hand. The first set of 10-ball rules we found said that I could break or him re-break. Since I spotted him all the breaks, he's the one who did what you are saying to me. Except he didn't 3 foul me. But almost.


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jviss

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The mistake was accepting his foul break as a legal break. You should have made him break again. If he fouls a second time, warn him:

"NOTE: If the shooter is not warned after the 2nd foul and commits a 3rd, it will not be a loss of game. Instead the opponent must again warn the shooter that the next foul committed will result in a loss of game."

(UPA Rules)

But play should not have proceeded past that foul break with the balls as they lay.
 
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