I'm fond of polls. And with the recent "Skill Level of BCA instructors." I'd like to consolidate those opinions here.
All anonymous, of course.
All anonymous, of course.
Would you value the opinion of a pro over that of a certified instructor?
- Thread starter Impact Blue
- Start date
Depends on what you're looking for...for solid instruction I'd go with the instructor...for playing strategy, probably the pro player.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Impact Blue said:
the individual
No sense me voting, I value the opinion of some individuals more than others. Certified Instructor and Pro are both loose enough definitions that either answer could be true. We have seen Certified Instructors that know very little and we have seen "Pro's" in name only. Of course there are very knowledgeable Certified Instructors and Pro's too.
I value the opinion of people who are knowledgeable and give thought before giving their opinions. Their credentials mean very little to me.
Hu
Impact Blue said:
No sense me voting, I value the opinion of some individuals more than others. Certified Instructor and Pro are both loose enough definitions that either answer could be true. We have seen Certified Instructors that know very little and we have seen "Pro's" in name only. Of course there are very knowledgeable Certified Instructors and Pro's too.
I value the opinion of people who are knowledgeable and give thought before giving their opinions. Their credentials mean very little to me.
Hu
Well, it depends.
I know pro players who specifically give out disinformation to the newbie, who only give out sound advice if they are getting dinner, or a drink, or basically paid somehow.
All relative between the forthcoming pro and the instructor depending on what you want to learn.
I know pro players who specifically give out disinformation to the newbie, who only give out sound advice if they are getting dinner, or a drink, or basically paid somehow.
All relative between the forthcoming pro and the instructor depending on what you want to learn.
Reminds me of a story
Reminds me of a story about David Howard, a great pro player "back in the day." David had just run a rack to take a match in a tournament and was taking to some spectators. One of the spectators asked him a question about a shot he had just made a few minutes before and David said he really couldn't remember the shot, or as it turned out, hardly anything about the runout. A pro player may have a ton of talent, but that doesn't mean they will necessarily be able to offer insightful opinions and comments about the game.
Reminds me of a story about David Howard, a great pro player "back in the day." David had just run a rack to take a match in a tournament and was taking to some spectators. One of the spectators asked him a question about a shot he had just made a few minutes before and David said he really couldn't remember the shot, or as it turned out, hardly anything about the runout. A pro player may have a ton of talent, but that doesn't mean they will necessarily be able to offer insightful opinions and comments about the game.
As the question is posed, I'll take the advice of a pro, because so many certified instructors are not, by my standards, particularly knowledgeable.
If the question had been whether I'd prefer the advice of an instructor widely acclaimed as a fine one or a pro player, I'll go with the instructor every time. I figure both have the knowledge to answer my question, but the instructor has devoted some of his/her time to the preparation of materials and development of communication skills to relate his/her knowledge more effectively.
Understandably, only a precious few pro players have invested significant time and effort in developing their teaching materials and communication skills.
If the question had been whether I'd prefer the advice of an instructor widely acclaimed as a fine one or a pro player, I'll go with the instructor every time. I figure both have the knowledge to answer my question, but the instructor has devoted some of his/her time to the preparation of materials and development of communication skills to relate his/her knowledge more effectively.
Understandably, only a precious few pro players have invested significant time and effort in developing their teaching materials and communication skills.
It depends on the material. To just learn english, mechanics,basic patterns etc I think either pro or instructor is fine.
From communication stand point and price, probably instructor on average.
But to learn the mental game, and how to perform the knowledge you possess under competitive pressure, and how to win...hands down the professional player
From communication stand point and price, probably instructor on average.
But to learn the mental game, and how to perform the knowledge you possess under competitive pressure, and how to win...hands down the professional player
Impact Blue said:
no offense meant to any instructors but i'd value the pro's opinion more. mostly because people want to play like pros so who knows how to play like a pro more than a pro?
with the exception of working on my pre-shot routine i've completely given up on fundamentals. i'm just trying to do what ever works (more function than form)
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That depends on alot of things,
I will say this: I have had lessions from the BCA guys and they were helpful no doubt it and I recommend them to everyone. ESPECIALLY C players or under that level, man I would be 3 times stronger had I had proper lessions when I was 14 years old, or 18 for that matter. I still use today what the BCA guys taught me.
But to a extent I have out grown them-I use that term lightly because there is no doubt in my mind Scott Lee could still help me(he is my friend so i use his name here). But for the past 3 months all I have been playing is AAA players and a pro and I like how I'm playing. the AAA player has worked on just the balls(1P moves, banks, patterns) and a couple of stroke shots but not any stroke analysis or eye movment-in otherwords the balls not Fatboy. The pro Max Eberly has worked on me(when i'm not racking) he has worked on some fundmental weaknesses, because he has a deeper understanding of my level of play than some BCA instructors he seems to have the right solutions to the problems at the right time. Sure we all have the answeres, but the timing of what to fix when is what I have seen him and Tang Ho help me with. To the BCA guys credit they know their stuff same as the pro's I know, but the pro's seem to be a bit more connected to me at my speed, not just the right answeres at the wrong time.
Please dont think I'm knocking the BCA guys, i'm not at all I endorse them fully. Just for me my time with the top guys has been more productive, BUT for C players, APA 5 guys the BCA guys are the way to go. For stronger players I vote for the pro's. This is a generazilitation and isnt a fact, just based on my own personal experience.
I will say this: I have had lessions from the BCA guys and they were helpful no doubt it and I recommend them to everyone. ESPECIALLY C players or under that level, man I would be 3 times stronger had I had proper lessions when I was 14 years old, or 18 for that matter. I still use today what the BCA guys taught me.
But to a extent I have out grown them-I use that term lightly because there is no doubt in my mind Scott Lee could still help me(he is my friend so i use his name here). But for the past 3 months all I have been playing is AAA players and a pro and I like how I'm playing. the AAA player has worked on just the balls(1P moves, banks, patterns) and a couple of stroke shots but not any stroke analysis or eye movment-in otherwords the balls not Fatboy. The pro Max Eberly has worked on me(when i'm not racking) he has worked on some fundmental weaknesses, because he has a deeper understanding of my level of play than some BCA instructors he seems to have the right solutions to the problems at the right time. Sure we all have the answeres, but the timing of what to fix when is what I have seen him and Tang Ho help me with. To the BCA guys credit they know their stuff same as the pro's I know, but the pro's seem to be a bit more connected to me at my speed, not just the right answeres at the wrong time.
Please dont think I'm knocking the BCA guys, i'm not at all I endorse them fully. Just for me my time with the top guys has been more productive, BUT for C players, APA 5 guys the BCA guys are the way to go. For stronger players I vote for the pro's. This is a generazilitation and isnt a fact, just based on my own personal experience.
jcommie said:
I don't think this is fair at all. She is a fantastic player and a very knowledgeable one at that.
I value the opinion of the one that can get his point across clearly regardless of his skill level. There are people out there teaching that just aren't made for it. There are pro players out there that can run rack after rack after rack but can't teach worth a shit. It all comes down to the person's teaching skills.
MULLY
MULLY
I'm gonna have to agree with Mr. Lee right here. I'm not much of a billiards player yet but I've been successful with lots of sports and definately trust the pros experience vs instructors. Only difficulty being the ablility within the people to verbalize their info. Just gotta take the pros advice for what it is and read between the lines more. Instructors on the other hand are innately good at speaking about issues cause thats how they get paid--we hope at least.
To me this is where pool differs from other sports. Pool players seem to devalue the opinion of someone who doesn't play a certain speed. PGA tour players routinely see instructors who while good players are no where near PGA tour caliber. Tiger Woods current instructor is on record saying that for a period of years he never hit a driver and was scared to play because he couldn't keep the tee ball in play. That didn't stop Tiger and Mark O'Mera from seeking Hank Haney's help. Kenny Perrys swing coach at one time was his son's teammate on his college golf team. Kenny said it didn't matter that the kid was only 22. He knew the golf swing and that was all that mattered
IMO one should seek the most knowledgable person they can that can share the information and make it easy to understand. One should also find a instructor or pro that they connect with. It does no good to see someone if they can't communicate with you.
One last note Hal Mix is considered by many the greatest pool instructor ever and by his own admission he was nothing more than a shortstop. Hal worked with Nick Varner among others.
Shev
IMO one should seek the most knowledgable person they can that can share the information and make it easy to understand. One should also find a instructor or pro that they connect with. It does no good to see someone if they can't communicate with you.
One last note Hal Mix is considered by many the greatest pool instructor ever and by his own admission he was nothing more than a shortstop. Hal worked with Nick Varner among others.
Shev
I had to rep the guy for the honesty..Scott Lee said:
Ive had good and bad lessons from both...For the record I give the credit for my stroke to a BCA guy, And the best lessons about the game have come from great players...
For those that dont know, most top notch players, in most games, have a coach of some kind. Golfers, they have a coach, plus get a caddy to do all the thinking.
I think It depends on the question.
I'd ask and Instructor how to SHOOT pool, and I'd ask a pro how to PLAY pool.
If the questions are like am I stoking the cue correctly?? or How can I get better at pool??
I value the instructors opinion over that of a pro...
if the question is whats the best pattern to run this rack?? which shot do you take here? how do I get shape on the 5?
I value the opinion of the Pro..over the instructor..
and why is it only in pool that teachers are called instructors and somehow "devalued"
pffft... guy played so bad he took lessons...
but in all team sports and many individual sports the value of GREAT COACHING is a no brainer...
thats always puzzled me..about pool
I'd ask and Instructor how to SHOOT pool, and I'd ask a pro how to PLAY pool.
If the questions are like am I stoking the cue correctly?? or How can I get better at pool??
I value the instructors opinion over that of a pro...
if the question is whats the best pattern to run this rack?? which shot do you take here? how do I get shape on the 5?
I value the opinion of the Pro..over the instructor..
and why is it only in pool that teachers are called instructors and somehow "devalued"
pffft... guy played so bad he took lessons...
but in all team sports and many individual sports the value of GREAT COACHING is a no brainer...
thats always puzzled me..about pool
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I think pool players have something in common with musicians..
you have to do it badly by yourself for a long time until anyone else will want to watch you do it for one LOL
Pool is like half sport half art.. I think instructors .. the good ones at least can teach you the sport part of it very effectively..
Pro's are like artists some can tell you how they create.. and some can't...
the teacher can teach you how to play all of the notes...
you still have to write the song..
and don't forget to do your scales.....and your drills...
you have to do it badly by yourself for a long time until anyone else will want to watch you do it for one LOL
Pool is like half sport half art.. I think instructors .. the good ones at least can teach you the sport part of it very effectively..
Pro's are like artists some can tell you how they create.. and some can't...
the teacher can teach you how to play all of the notes...
you still have to write the song..
and don't forget to do your scales.....and your drills...
I myself would listen to Stan Shuffett and Joe T over just about anyone and I have my reasons.