WRISTS - The "hidden power catalyst" of a great stroke or "just along for the ride"?

RShellhouse

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I was actually lucky enough to get a series of high speed shots of Fransisco Bustamante stroke last night from about a 90 degree angle it's a series of about 25-30 images once I get power back I will figure how to best put them up to share...


Rick
 

BlindWizard

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hand and wrist just along for the ride for me. Watch Efren's right hand release the cue prior to the hit. Efren "throws" the stick into the ball without holding on. People who advise players to accelerate the cue through the ball are dead wrong--let the cue float through the ball.
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
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Silver Member
"different strokes for different folks"

Hand and wrist just along for the ride for me. Watch Efren's right hand release the cue prior to the hit. Efren "throws" the stick into the ball without holding on. People who advise players to accelerate the cue through the ball are dead wrong--let the cue float through the ball.

It sure doens't look like Mike Sigel's cue is "just along for the ride". :eek: And as I was saying there's "different strokes for different folks", if you can model Efren's stroke then you should. (Efren's never had a great break) It's just that most of us can't, so we do it in a different way, and it can be as effective in most cases.

images
 
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CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
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It's our beliefs, in most cases that hold us back from reaching that next level.

Agreed.


Agree again.

Whatever this technique does for CJ, it's not a "hidden power catalyst" in any usual sense of those words. In fact, "unusual meaning" seems to be a hallmark of his posts. That seems to be a good thing for some readers - I guess it allows them to interpret things to suit themselves.

pj
chgo

You are correct, we must be allowed to inerpret things for ourselves to make breakthroughs in our belief systems.

It's our beliefs, in most cases that hold us back from reaching the next level. 'The Game is the Teacher'

Man_Stuck.jpg
 

Gammaray

Wanna Play Sum?
Silver Member
I am trying to see if I understand this wrist action correctly. Let's say you had your grip hand on the butt of the cue as if you were taking practice strokes before executing the final stroke to contact the cue ball with the tip. Would the thumb and first finger accelerate forward towards the cue ball with this wrist motion? If this would be correct, then it would be like placing a dart in the grip hand with the point of the dart trying to hit the cue ball when released.

Thanks!
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
I am trying to see if I understand this wrist action correctly. Let's say you had your grip hand on the butt of the cue as if you were taking practice strokes before executing the final stroke to contact the cue ball with the tip. Would the thumb and first finger accelerate forward towards the cue ball with this wrist motion? If this would be correct, then it would be like placing a dart in the grip hand with the point of the dart trying to hit the cue ball when released.

Thanks!

I'm hopeful CJ will respond, but as I understand it, I will try to help you out.

If you held the cue in your hand with it extended out parallel to the floor, say as you are studying the table & you 'flexed' your wrist so the cue tip would then point toward the floor. That, I believe, is to what CJ is referring, not where you 'flex' your wrist & the cue tip points to the ceiling.

To me, it is sort of like thrusting a sword into a target dummy at throat height. look at the pictures of Johnny Archer.

Hope this helps & sorry for the graphic nature of the sword analogy.

Regards,
 
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xplor

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Grip is a strong word. Your wrist flexs naturally when you walk . It is the same motion when you are playing pool.
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
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Silver Member
I'm ONLY talking to players that have the "Touch" in their fingers

I am trying to see if I understand this wrist action correctly. Let's say you had your grip hand on the butt of the cue as if you were taking practice strokes before executing the final stroke to contact the cue ball with the tip. Would the thumb and first finger accelerate forward towards the cue ball with this wrist motion? If this would be correct, then it would be like placing a dart in the grip hand with the point of the dart trying to hit the cue ball when released.

Thanks!

No, it would be more like the motion of throwing the dart over handed as far as the wrist/fingers, but in a much more subtle motion. We get the most FEEL with our fingers, not our palms, not our wrists, or our arms. To play pool at the highest level you must FEEL THE GAME IN YOUR FINGERS......and the wrists are the connection between your FINGERS and your arm (that strokes the cue).

If you hold a hammer in your palms then this is NOT FOR YOU. I'm talking about a grip where you hold the hammer/cue in your fingers so that you can feel the cue/hammer as much as possible.

There are MANY ways to play this game and personal preference, so if throw a ball without your fingers/wrist, throw a dart with no fingers/wrist or use a hammer with no fingers/wrist, then you have a different way of doing things than I do, and that's fine.

I'm ONLY talking to players that have the "Touch" in their fingers and experience life/games/sports/ through that type of "connection".


The hammer motion is one that delivers the maximum force to the tip (for lack of a better word) of the hammer. If you uncocked your wrist where it contacts the nail and then locked your wrist and pounded the nail in that position (with no wrist) that's one way of doing it and many players play this way.

I use a system where I pre cock my wrist/fingers and create a "groove" where my wrists/fingers must move UP AND DOWN, with no SIDE TO SIDE motion at all. It's the "Side to Side" movement that throws your cue off line and causes you to miss hit the cue ball.

When you HINGE your wrist/fingers the cue MUST go down that "groove" and CAN NOT miss hit the cue ball to the Left OR the Right!!! This put you in a positon where you MUST hit the cue ball straight. This is how champion players hit the ball so straight, we simply CAN'T do it wrong.

I'm not saying all champions do it like I do it, but they do it in their own way. We MUST create a groove/slot/hinge (whatever you want to call it) so that the cue contacts the cue ball on a straight line EVERY TIME!

If you cock your wrist/fingers up slightly and then pounded the nail you would have some "wrist/finger flick" to add to the acceleration when you hit the nail.

If you cock your wrist/fingers more you will have more "wrist flick" and you could continue this until you cocked the hammer completely up and then you would have the maximum "wrist/finger flick" when you hit the nail.

I "pre cock" my wrist/fingers more than many other players, therefore I have more energy produced from my wrist/fingers at the moment of contact. Even with this happening it is so slight that you can't see me doing it. This is the issue with trying to learn the subtle secrets that the pros are doing, you can't see it being done. I'm tryin to give you a way to FEEL what it's like by using the hammer. This is a small powerful motion that you can only see on the break for the most part.


Watch the top professionals before they get down to shoot and you see them stroking their cue in the air. They are establishing their wrist/finger motion for the stroke they are about to shoot. We aren't stroking the cue to make sure it slides between our fingers smoothly, even though that is preferable, we're PREPARING our hand for the shot at hand. {pun intended}

The Key to Pool is in the Hands/Fingers/Wrists, so make sure you learn to Prepare Them For Success. 'The Game is the Teacher'
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
you can't see what John or I do on video because the motion is so quick and subtle.

John Schmidt talks about the wrist in a recent TAR podcast.....on the eve of his match with Corey.

He said he pre-cocks it in the back position (ulnar deviation) to take away any unwanted action by the wrist.......says that is what can cause many amateur players to miss a shot. He then said that "CJ Wiley" does the opposite, pre-cocks it in the forward position (radial deviation).

CJ, have you changed what you were doing in the past? Wish you could post a quick video demonstration.

I've always done this and I've been ask many times to explain it, but resisted, knowing it would be difficult to communicate. I can do it in person pretty easily by setting up some shots and showing someone how it's done.

Unfortunately you can't see what John or I do on video because the motion is so quick and subtle. I figure if someone can benifit from my "attempted" explanation then it's a good thing.

If someone doesn't want to experiment with their grip/wrist/fingers then they probably will skip and go read about "pendulem stokes" or something like that. :wink:
 

measureman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This is all getting a bit over thought. It's just a simple flick of the hand forward as you contact the cue ball.Maybe 2 inches or less. Very little forward motion. I have been doing it for over 50 years and I don't even think about it. It just comes naturally.
Just a short forward flick. Pretty simple.
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
Just a short forward flick. Pretty simple.

This is all getting a bit over thought. It's just a simple flick of the hand forward as you contact the cue ball.Maybe 2 inches or less. Very little forward motion. I have been doing it for over 50 years and I don't even think about it. It just comes naturally.
Just a short forward flick. Pretty simple.

That's exactly right, but trying to explain what happens with that "little forward flick motion" gets some people on here "feeling funny inside".

It's just stange to see people that pose as experts trying to tell everyone there's "no wrist in the pool stroke". hmmm, 'The Game is the Teacher'
 

Scott Lee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
CJ...It certainly hasn't hampered his "annointment" by most people and players, as the greatest player on Earth (for many, the greatest player EVER).

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

QUOTE=cjssecrets4u2;3838499] (Efren's never had a great break)[/QUOTE]
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
This is all getting a bit over thought. It's just a simple flick of the hand forward as you contact the cue ball.Maybe 2 inches or less. Very little forward motion. I have been doing it for over 50 years and I don't even think about it. It just comes naturally.
Just a short forward flick. Pretty simple.

Mr. Water Lock,

I've been playing for 46 years & would say that I've never done it on purpose.

How did you come to doing it? Did someone teach it to you or did you just naturally 'gravitate' to it? What type 'grip' do you use? A loose or firm one?

Thanks in advance for your insight should you choose to respond.

Best regards,
 

Scott Lee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Just exactly who (among the "experts") is saying there's no wrist involvement in the stroke? Nobody, is the answer. What several of us have posted is the the "wrist flick" doesn't substancially change the outcome of the stroke...power, spin, or otherwise. That's a fact. The wrist, when allowed, flexes naturally, as part of the backswing and forward stroke. You can debate it all you like, but it doesn't change the physics.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

That's exactly right, but trying to explain what happens with that "little forward flick motion" gets some people on here "feeling funny inside".

It's just stange to see people that pose as experts trying to tell everyone there's "no wrist in the pool stroke". hmmm, 'The Game is the Teacher'
 

lfigueroa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Unfortunately you can't see what John or I do on video because the motion is so quick and subtle.


Sorry. I have to call complete and total BS on this.

Besides being silly on its face, even an el cheapo Flip camera will capture video at 60 FPS. Plenty fast enough to capture what the wrist of a pool player is doing. And if that isn't fast enough, the sky is the limit nowadays when it comes to high speed video capture.

Lou Figueroa
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
someone could profit substantially from knowing ways to maximize/fine tune this

Just exactly who (among the "experts") is saying there's no wrist involvement in the stroke? Nobody, is the answer. What several of us have posted is the the "wrist flick" doesn't substancially change the outcome of the stroke...power, spin, or otherwise. That's a fact. The wrist, when allowed, flexes naturally, as part of the backswing and forward stroke. You can debate it all you like, but it doesn't change the physics.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

My position is it makes a big difference and someone could profit substantially from knowing ways to maximize/fine tune this motion. You disagree, and that's fine. Nothing personal.
 

mantis99

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This has been a challenging topic for me for at least the past year. Originally I found that uncocking my wrists produced a significant increase in power, and resultant spin. However, over time, I began overgripping the cue when attempting a strong stroke and actually began cocking my wrist as I started forward. This causes a quick downward movement of the tip, and I have been miscuing more than ever due to this. I have been struggling mightly to correct this, and have just recently decided to pre-cock my wrist, and try to relax my fingers to avoid overgripping. It has been helping so far, but I do believe that more power lies in hitting with an uncocking motion. I just can't get myself to uncock correctly instead of over grip and cock the cue. It has been terribly frustrating for me, and has been the cause of some real up and down play. I do find that concentrating on a smooth transition from back stroke pause to forward stroke instead of a violent forward movement helps also. I'd love to get this solved and regain some consistency, but have not yet been able to do so.
 
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