WRISTS - The "hidden power catalyst" of a great stroke or "just along for the ride"?

[sfleinen]

'Getting off topic?'. On THIS thread?

You should only gloat when you're on very firm ground, Sean. Your post is quite emphatic, and has been repeated. It is also wrong.

Hmm... gloating. Kinda confused exactly where in my posts I'm "gloating." But hey, pot, meet kettle, oh-so-dismissive-and-overly-confident-one (read: Brit; it's built-in, after all).

-Sean

 

[dr_dave]

The usual theory about this is that creating more swerve to exactly cancel squirt (so you can aim straight at the contact point) makes aiming easier - but I think that's backward. Between squirt and swerve, swerve is by far the more difficult to estimate, because it's caused by a much more complex set of variables. The amount of squirt is determined only by the amount of tip offset, but the amount of swerve depends on that plus distance, speed, butt elevation, equipment age and maintenance, even humidity and temperature.

If we could eliminate swerve altogether and deal only with squirt, aiming would be much easier, even though we'd have to aim farther from the contact point, because squirt is consistent. So increasing swerve (making it harder to estimate), even though it means we can aim closer to the contact point, is ultimately harder to do consistently.

Excellent post. I agree 100%.

For people interested in this topic, many relevant resources (including video demonstrations) can be found here:

aim compensation for squirt, swerve, and throw​

I aim to squerve,
Dave

 

[ENGLISH!]

It technically is different for every shot, but the differences are very miniscule so with practice, your subconsious can make all the necessary adjustments.

I think its important to use a combination of compensation for english by changing the aim of the cue (like BHE) and the angle elevation because using just one technique will not be ideal in every situation. Its A LOT easier to visualize long shots when you can aim somewhere near the object ball. Pure BHE would have you aiming into no-mans-land on standard cues. Likewise, if you are very close to the object ball, it would not be practical to do a full masse into the OB. Ideally you would want to gain enough experience to have a balance between the two techniques.

Masayoshi,

I agree with almost all of what you say above.

However, I believe I make my adjustments with a combination of aim, amount of spin, & speed. I have taken the cue elevation out of the equation for all intent purposes. I have done this consciously I think as I have missed TOO many shots I believe due to the cue ball bouncing slightly on some shots & thus is off of the cloth & no longer under my control & not 'planned' for.

I do elevate the cue when necessary but I am less successful when doing so. The spin seems to either take affect too early or not enough later in the shot. Perhaps due to being in New Orleans, I don't know, or perhaps I just do not shoot that way often enough to gain a true 'feel' & 'touch' for those shots as have for the others.

If you ever want to discuss matters off air, please feel free to PM me.

Good Luck & Best Wishes for the 'journey' we are on.

Regards,

 

[dr_dave]

Excellent post. I agree 100%.

For people interested in this topic, many relevant resources (including video demonstrations) can be found here:

aim compensation for squirt, swerve, and throw​

I aim to squerve,
Dave

For people who don't want to wade through all of the resources, the following video provides a fairly good "executive summary" of squirt and swerve effects:

NV B.70 - Squirt (cue ball deflection), swerve, and throw, from VEPS II​

Enjoy,
Dave

 

[ENGLISH!]

This is why I question the wisdom of habitually elevating your butt - doing that accentuates swerve (makes the curve sharper), which makes it harder to estimate, not easier.

The usual theory about this is that creating more swerve to exactly cancel squirt (so you can aim straight at the contact point) makes aiming easier - but I think that's backward. Between squirt and swerve, swerve is by far the more difficult to estimate, because it's caused by a much more complex set of variables. The amount of squirt is determined only by the amount of tip offset, but the amount of swerve depends on that plus distance, speed, butt elevation, equipment age and cleanliness, even humidity and temperature.

If we could eliminate swerve altogether and deal only with squirt, aiming would be much easier, even though we'd have to aim farther from the contact point, because squirt is consistent. So increasing swerve (making it harder to estimate), even though it means we can aim closer to the contact point, is ultimately harder to do consistently.

It may be that many pros do it (I'm not entirely convinced), but pros can adapt even to questionable practices much more readily than mere mortals. I personally would hesitate to recommend this technique, especially to developing players.

pj
chgo

PJ,

I agree with what you say regarding the aspects of applying an off center hit, spin, english.

I would also agree about not suggesting a developing player to elevate their cue, not even for 'center hit' shots as any amount of actual off center hit accentuates the result usually resulting in a mis.

However I would suggest that developing players also develope their understanding & discretionary use of english. When I refer to english, I usually mean a combination of high or low with an amount of side. IMHO it can be a very valuable tool.

Regards,

 

[ENGLISH!]

For people who don't want to wade through all of the resources, the following video provides a fairly good "executive summary" of squirt and swerve effects:

NV B.70 - Squirt (cue ball deflection), swerve, and throw, from VEPS II​

Enjoy,
Dave

AZB'ers,

I'd like to take this opportunity to once again thank Dr. Dave for all of the effort & labor he has invested to bring the science & knowledge regarding Billiards to the Billiard Community & for his ongoing assistance in so many threads disscusing these 'phenomena'.

I would also like to take this opportunity, to invite all those not yet familiar with the use of 'english' to experiment with it. It may look very complex & difficult to manage.

But...do not be afraid of it, as I have stated before, the human mind & body is more than capable of employing such a technique that can be quite advantages at times. However, I would also advise discretion in its application until one is very comfortable with executing it.

Good Shooting To All & Best Regards,

 

[TheThaiger]

This is why I question the wisdom of habitually elevating your butt - doing that accentuates swerve (makes the curve sharper), which makes it harder to estimate, not easier.

The usual theory about this is that creating more swerve to exactly cancel squirt (so you can aim straight at the contact point) makes aiming easier - but I think that's backward. Between squirt and swerve, swerve is by far the more difficult to estimate, because it's caused by a much more complex set of variables. The amount of squirt is determined only by the amount of tip offset, but the amount of swerve depends on that plus distance, speed, butt elevation, equipment age and cleanliness, even humidity and temperature.

If we could eliminate swerve altogether and deal only with squirt, aiming would be much easier, even though we'd have to aim farther from the contact point, because squirt is consistent. So increasing swerve (making it harder to estimate), even though it means we can aim closer to the contact point, is ultimately harder to do consistently.

It may be that many pros do it (I'm not entirely convinced), but pros can adapt even to questionable practices much more readily than mere mortals. I personally would hesitate to recommend this technique, especially to developing players.

pj
chgo

Personally, I find swerve much easier to deal with than deflection. Swerve is a skill shot, one which is in your power to control (through elevation, pace, speed, distance etc) and becomes subliminal over time. You make it happen and you are responsible for it. Deflection, on the other hand, is more mechanical, outside of your control, and arbitrary.

 

[TheThaiger]

Hmm... gloating. Kinda confused exactly where in my posts I'm "gloating." But hey, pot, meet kettle, oh-so-dismissive-and-overly-confident-one (read: Brit; it's built-in, after all).

-Sean

Uh oh, CJ, you just undermined his whole world of pool (see his profile and .sig). You keep that stuff up, and you might get added to his AZB-only-time-history-that-someone-published-their-Ignore list (with the event announced to the world at the same time, no less).

You don't think this is an example of gloating? Especially as you've said it more than once?

Unseemly, Sean. (<--quite like that one lol.)

 

[ENGLISH!]

Personally, I find swerve much easier to deal with than deflection. Swerve is a skill shot, one which is in your power to control (through elevation, pace, speed, distance etc) and becomes subliminal over time. You make it happen and you are responsible for it. Deflection, on the other hand, is more mechanical, outside of your control, and arbitrary.

I'm not sure , but I think the two of you are in 'agreement'.

Best to Both,

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Swerve is a skill shot, one which is in your power to control (through elevation, pace, speed, distance etc) and becomes subliminal over time. You make it happen and you are responsible for it. Deflection, on the other hand, is more mechanical, outside of your control, and arbitrary.

I think you have this all backwards.

You "control" swerve (to the extent you can) by adjusting several variables at once. You "control" squirt by adjusting only one variable: tip offset.

Squirt isn't "arbitrary" - it's a direct and consistent product of the amount of tip offset. Swerve is much more "arbitrary" because it's the product of several interacting variables.

pj
chgo

 

[sfleinen]

You don't think this is an example of gloating? Especially as you've said it more than once?

Unseemly, Sean. (<--quite like that one lol.)

No, Tim, I don't. There's no victory or aspect that I'm "gloating" over. In my book, what you quote is called being sarcastic -- or even sardonic -- but not gloating. Come on, now. You should be better with your own language than that.

But you go ahead on picking trivial stuff out of folks' posts that have nothing to do with furthering the content and intent of the thread. I'm done responding to you about this trivial crap.

You're more of a waster of people's time than Peter Ebdon at the table.

-Sean

 

[ENGLISH!]

Personally, I find swerve much easier to deal with than deflection. Swerve is a skill shot, one which is in your power to control (through elevation, pace, speed, distance etc) and becomes subliminal over time. You make it happen and you are responsible for it. Deflection, on the other hand, is more mechanical, outside of your control, and arbitrary.

I 'agree'.

The deflection(cue ball squirt) is a 'bad' side effect of hitting the cue ball off of the vertical axis so we can utilize the side spin of the cue ball for an intended purpose.

The other parameters we control either subliminally, subcosciously, or even consciously so as to effectively utilize the side spin for the purpose that we intended.

Best Regards,

 

[FranCrimi]

I think you have this all backwards.

You "control" swerve (to the extent you can) by adjusting several variables at once. You "control" squirt by adjusting only one variable: tip offset.

Squirt isn't "arbitrary" - it's a direct and consistent product of the amount of tip offset. Swerve is much more "arbitrary" because it's the product of several interacting variables.

pj
chgo

What are the several variables that you adjust to control swerve? Why doesn't speed affect squirt?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

You "control" swerve (to the extent you can) by adjusting several variables at once. You "control" squirt by adjusting only one variable: tip offset.

pj
chgo

Fran:
What are the several variables that you adjust to control swerve?

From my previous post:

The amount of squirt is determined only by the amount of tip offset, but the amount of swerve depends on that plus distance, speed, butt elevation, equipment age and cleanliness, even humidity and temperature.

Why doesn't speed affect squirt?

Speed affects swerve, and swerve affects the amount of "effective squirt" (squirt goes one way, swerve goes the other).

pj
chgo

 

[FranCrimi]

From my previous post:

The amount of squirt is determined only by the amount of tip offset, but the amount of swerve depends on that plus distance, speed, butt elevation, equipment age and cleanliness, even humidity and temperature.


Speed affects swerve, and swerve affects the amount of "effective squirt" (squirt goes one way, swerve goes the other).

pj
chgo

If the cb is still sliding at impact with the ob, then swerve did not come into play. Therefore speed is a variable that a player can use to control the distance that the cb squirts.

Therefore, tip offset is not the only way to control squirt because when you speak of the word 'control,' it's always in relation to the objective of the shot, which is to send the cb to a desired point and achieve a particular result.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

If the cb is still sliding at impact with the ob, then swerve did not come into play.

The CB swerves while sliding, and stops swerving when it stops sliding (sliding wears off gradually). But it's true that you can hit hard enough so that not much swerving happens before CB/OB contact.

Therefore speed is a variable that a player can use to control the distance that the cb squirts.

Therefore, tip offset is not the only way to control squirt because when you speak of the word 'control,' it's always in relation to the objective of the shot, which is to send the cb to a desired point and achieve a particular result.

I guess you can call it what you want, as long as you're aware of the separate variables and what they each do so you can predict/control them most effectively, especially when conditions change.

pj
chgo

 

[dr_dave]

If the cb is still sliding at impact with the ob, then swerve did not come into play. Therefore speed is a variable that a player can use to control the distance that the cb squirts.

Therefore, tip offset is not the only way to control squirt because when you speak of the word 'control,' it's always in relation to the objective of the shot, which is to send the cb to a desired point and achieve a particular result.

Fran,

Squirt (cue ball deflection) does not vary with shot speed. Squirt depends only on the endmass of the shaft and the amount of tip offset from center. The amount of swerve varies with shot speed, shot distance, cue elevation, the amount and type of english, and conditions. Therefore, the combined effect of both squirt and swerve (AKA "squerve," "net cue ball deflection," or "effective cue ball deflection") does vary with speed.

I think the biggest cause for confusion and arguments in threads like this is terminology. When some people use the term "squirt" or the phrase "cue ball deflection," they actually mean the "net effect of both squirt and swerve." I think it is best to distinguish between the effects (to have a full understanding of how to adjust appropriately in various situations), or at least to be clear when one is referring to the combined effect or not.

For more info, see:

squirt (cue ball deflection) speed effects
squirt, swerve, and throw confusion
squerve​

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

The CB swerves while sliding, and stops swerving when it stops sliding (sliding wears off gradually). But it's true that you can hit hard enough so that not much swerving happens before CB/OB contact.

I guess you can call it what you want, as long as you're aware of the separate variables and what they each do so you can predict/control them most effectively, especially when conditions change.

Well stated! Both squirt and swerve happen with every off-center hit. Squirt dominates with fast-speed shots, where the amount of swerve is small. Swerve dominates at slower speeds, higher cue elevations, and with stickier conditions. With certain combinations of cue elevation, shot speed, shot distance, and the amount and type of english, squirt and swerve can cancel each other out (for a given set of conditions).

Regards,
Dave

 

[Pay Up Sucker]

Well stated! Both squirt and swerve happen with every off-center hit. Squirt dominates with fast-speed shots, where the amount of swerve is small. Swerve dominates at slower speeds, higher cue elevations, and with stickier conditions. With certain combinations of cue elevation, shot speed, shot distance, and the amount and type of english, squirt and swerve can cancel each other out (for a given set of conditions).

Regards,
Dave

isn't the above bold what Cj has been saying?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

With certain combinations of cue elevation, shot speed, shot distance, and the amount and type of english, squirt and swerve can cancel each other out (for a given set of conditions).

Regards,
Dave

Pay Up Sucker:
isn't the above bold what Cj has been saying?

Yes, but I think CJ has been saying it's a "best practice", which I question, especially for learning players.

pj
chgo