WRISTS - The "hidden power catalyst" of a great stroke or "just along for the ride"?

[dr_dave]

... inside english does increase the amount of object-ball throw with small cut-angle shots and decrease the amount of throw with larger cut-angle shots.

I am having hard time agreeing with above i marked in red, i have, 9, 10, 11, 12, and 13 mm tip shafts, i used all for thin cuts and 1/2 ball cuts using rolling inside english medium speed, clean balls, 100% level shaft my finding with the 9 mm, 10, and 11 mm shaft i have no throw, when i slowed the speed i started seeing the throw (under cut). When using 12 and 13 mm tips i started seeing more cue deflection and noticeable over cutting of the ob an indication of cue deflection.
Similarly with outside english same results
But when i stun or slow role i do see much increase in throw.
I know my stroke is 100% straight, i shoot straight shots all the time and right on the money, i use laser beem to judge my stroke..
My 2 cents.

I would expect the different shafts to create different amounts of squirt (cue ball deflection), but maybe you are compensating for that in your aim.

The only way to get a "100% level shaft" is if the butt is not over a rail.

At slower speed, the swerve happens sooner which will cause a thicker hit. Throw will also be more at slower speed.

I'm sorry you don't agree with my statement in red, but it is true. However, it is difficult to do experiments to verify this because squirt and swerve are also factors with shots at a table. In comparing the amounts of throw of different shots, you need to make sure the CB is arriving at the OB in the exact same ghost-ball position for each shot (i.e., you need to adjust perfectly for squirt and swerve effects as shot speed and spin change). If you could do this, you would see how the amount of throw changes with different types of shots.

FYI, the experiments demonstrated in the following video illustrate many of the throw speed and spin effects:

NV B.86 - Cut-induced throw (CIT) and spin-induced throw (SIT), from VEPS IV​

Check it out if you haven't watched the entire video yet. It clearly shows many throw effects not are not intuitively obvious to most people.

Also, the following document contains lots of graphs that show how throw changes with speed, cut angle, amount of top/bottom spin, and amount of English (assuming squirt and swerve are compensated for perfectly):

TP A.28 - Throw plots for all types of shots​

Check it out.

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

Hitting the OB and cushion simultaneously means you're not compensating for collision-induced throw (unless you use just the right amount of outside english). Collision-induced throw drives the OB into the cushion so it rebounds away.

To see this, freeze two OBs together so they're both frozen to the rail a couple of diamonds from the pocket, then shoot the combo shot with the CB at an angle (not also on the rail). You won't be able to make the shot.

Then try the same shot again, but put a little spit at the contact point between the OBs (to eliminate friction there) - now the shot goes.

If people don't want to try this themselves, here's a video demo showing it:

NV B.91 - Frozen-throw-down-rail proposition shot, from VEPS V​

Because of throw you need to aim a rail-frozen cut shot as if the rail isn't there - which means slightly overcutting without sidespin. This is often "learned" subconsciously, so we don't really know we're doing it.

As I'm sure you know, if the CB has a gearing amount of outside english, there is absolutely no throw. In this case, the proper advice is to hit the OB and cushion at the exact same time. If people want more info (and demonstrations) on this topic, see:

outside english resource page​

Regards,
Dave

 

[CJ Wiley]

It looks like the cue ball "floats"

Good post! It's very important to not get trapped under or in the rack on the break shot. Dallas West said to use some spin when you go into the rack to avoid being stuck in a cluster.

Best,
Mike

The "Touch" of Inside does put "pocket acceptance" spin on the object ball, but I always stay away from spinning the cue ball.

Putting inside english on the cue ball takes some adjustment and that takes away from the accuracy and precision of just simple "cueing" the ball a hair to the inside.

It's the "No Spin" reaction of the cue ball after contact with the object ball that's the "tell tale" sign to me. I can tell is someone uses this technique right away by seeing if the cue ball carries any spin after contact.

I'm sure you know exactly what I mean, Mike. It looks like the cue ball "floats" and that's what one of my road partners used to call it "floating the cueball". When someone uses outside it spins after contact and you can tell right away.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...if the CB has a gearing amount of outside english, there is absolutely no throw. In this case, the proper advice is to hit the OB and cushion at the exact same time.

Also, if the CB has some more outside spin, then the proper advice is to hit the OB slightly first.

As I said above, I like aiming these shots as if the rail isn't there, which tends to take all these things into account. With that approach I find rail-frozen shots to be even easier than other shots, because the rail (pointing at the pocket) shows me clearly where the no-throw OB contact point is.

pj
chgo

 

[dr_dave]

Also, if the CB has some more outside spin, then the proper advice is to hit the OB slightly first.

As I said above, I like aiming these shots as if the rail isn't there, which tends to take all these things into account. With that approach I find rail-frozen shots to be even easier than other shots, because the rail (pointing at the pocket) shows me clearly where the no-throw OB contact point is.

I agree 100%.

Regards,
Dave

 

[Patrick Johnson]

The "Touch" of Inside does put "pocket acceptance" spin on the object ball

I assume you mean spin that moves the OB toward the pocket when it hits a pocket facing. Then it depends on which facing you're hitting. With your "touch of inside" technique that would be the overcut side of the pocket, which I think you said is the least likely outcome.

pj
chgo

 

[Mikjary]

The "Touch" of Inside does put "pocket acceptance" spin on the object ball, but I always stay away from spinning the cue ball.

Putting inside english on the cue ball takes some adjustment and that takes away from the accuracy and precision of just simple "cueing" the ball a hair to the inside.

It's the "No Spin" reaction of the cue ball after contact with the object ball that's the "tell tale" sign to me. I can tell is someone uses this technique right away by seeing if the cue ball carries any spin after contact.

I'm sure you know exactly what I mean, Mike. It looks like the cue ball "floats" and that's what one of my road partners used to call it "floating the cueball". When someone uses outside it spins after contact and you can tell right away.

The cue ball kills nicely and floats off of the rails for position. The newer fast cloth, live balls and live rails make it easy to turn whitey loose. You used to need a stroke to play, now anybody can get from one end of the table to the other.

I used to rack...I mean play with Dave Yeager. His cue ball would float and move effortlessly around the table and always be on the right side of the next ball. He was slightly elevated and had a "push" stroke. I never understood what he was doing until now. Now my cue ball floats around the table and I get to stay close to center cue ball.

New position patterns have emerged for me without having to throw balls into the holes. By controlling the pressure of my grip, I can hold balls or create angles. Shooting into different parts of the pocket allows for different cue ball tracks and better position. The game is fun again and I like the possibility of picking up a ball or two. Thanks again, CJ for feeding the fish. Some of us may have to move into a bigger aquarium.

Best,
Mike

 

[Mikjary]

I assume you mean spin that moves the OB toward the pocket when it hits a pocket facing. Then it depends on which facing you're hitting. With your "touch of inside" technique that would be the overcut side of the pocket, which I think you said is the least likely outcome.

pj
chgo

Down the rail, it's the only outcome.

Best,
Mike

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Down the rail, it's the only outcome.

Best,
Mike

True for that shot. Maybe that's what CJ meant.

pj
chgo

 

[Neil]

The "Touch" of Inside does put "pocket acceptance" spin on the object ball, but I always stay away from spinning the cue ball.

Putting inside english on the cue ball takes some adjustment and that takes away from the accuracy and precision of just simple "cueing" the ball a hair to the inside.

It's the "No Spin" reaction of the cue ball after contact with the object ball that's the "tell tale" sign to me. I can tell is someone uses this technique right away by seeing if the cue ball carries any spin after contact.

I'm sure you know exactly what I mean, Mike. It looks like the cue ball "floats" and that's what one of my road partners used to call it "floating the cueball". When someone uses outside it spins after contact and you can tell right away.

If you are cutting a ball, and the cue ball has no spin on it after the hit, that is a tell all sign that you had spin on the cb before the hit. Anytime you cut a ball, the cb will pick up spin from the cut. To achieve no spin, you have to have just enough inside spin to cancel out the outside spin picked up off the collision.

 

[Mikjary]

True for that shot. Maybe that's what CJ meant.

pj
chgo

I don't know, but I guessed it was to continue with what you guys have said about cutting frozen balls. BTW, I agree with what you've posted.

Best,
Mike

 

[Mikjary]

If you are cutting a ball, and the cue ball has no spin on it after the hit, that is a tell all sign that you had spin on the cb before the hit. Anytime you cut a ball, the cb will pick up spin from the cut. To achieve no spin, you have to have just enough inside spin to cancel out the outside spin picked up off the collision.

This the central idea for position play with the touch of inside technique. Not possible on all cuts, but for a majority of them if you're playing good angles for position from the shot before. Much easier to judge speed and distance when the cue ball has a natural roll rather than spinning off of rails.

Best,
Mike

 

[sfleinen]

There you go, bud! Schizo fingers!

The same idea of getting back to the middle of the table from behind the rack if possible is a strong move. Nothing worse than getting shoved back down under the rack with nothing on the short rails. That's when you get the off angle, long cut down the table or pray for a duck in the side! :grin: And if it's a really good day you get cherry out the pack!

Back on topic. When I use a touch of inside, I lessen the clingy effects when I go into traffic. The cue ball wants to get away from other balls. Kinda' like me and the ex.

On a side note, but back on the OP's topic, the more I use the locked wrist, the more I seem to naturally break my wrist forward. I watched my stroke last night on video and I saw forward movement which wasn't there last week, I think. My stroke was totally a wrist snap forward previously, but now it's not. It's the opposite and I can still get some jizz on the cue ball. Who knew? This is uncharted territory for me.

I'm gonna play in comp this weekend, so it'll be interesting to see what happens. Good or bad, it'll be fun!:smile:

Best,
Mike

Hi Mike ("schizo-fingers" ):

Concerning the bolded part above, when you say "forward," do you mean forward as related to the wrist itself (i.e. bending the wrist towards the pinkie), or forward to mean in the direction of the cue (i.e. bending the wrist toward the thumb)?

I'm thinking the former, but just wanted to clarify.

Regardless, I send you good vibes -- knock 'em dead!
-Sean

 

[Mikjary]

Hi Mike ("schizo-fingers" ):

Concerning the bolded part above, when you say "forward," do you mean forward as related to the wrist itself (i.e. bending the wrist towards the pinkie), or forward to mean in the direction of the cue (i.e. bending the wrist toward the thumb)?

I'm thinking the former, but just wanted to clarify.

Regardless, I send you good vibes -- knock 'em dead!
-Sean

I mean my wrist is following the cue and I'm finishing with a V grip. It was previously moving back to my pinkie finger, but my stroke was not as accurate on certain shots. My fingers are now doing the work my wrist snap used to do in the opposite direction. I haven't tried to do this, it seems to be a by product of the cocked/locked wrist. Like I said...schizo fingers! Who knew?

Best,
Mike

 

[CJ Wiley]

The object ball is what you watch after contact, NOT the cue ball.

This the central idea for position play with the touch of inside technique. Not possible on all cuts, but for a majority of them if you're playing good angles for position from the shot before. Much easier to judge speed and distance when the cue ball has a natural roll rather than spinning off of rails.

Best,
Mike

Yes, the angles you are dealing with are more consitent because you aren't altering them with outside spin. I see players go through a rack spinning AND hitting the ball differently on every shot. This will work in the short term, and will break down over time.

The name of the game at the championship level is reducing unnecessary calculations. This means SPEED and SPIN and controlling how the cue ball influences the object ball.

If you try to hit the same type shot every chance you get and MAKE the table play your game you will develop a new confidence. No longer will you care how the balls are laying or the difficulty level.

You will play every shot as if they are "just a shot" and find a way to make the table conform to your style of play. Just like in other things in life that we've found is the opposite of "common sense", playing the "easiest" shot with the "correct" spin is NOT the most effective way to play.

Watch some video of legendary Buddy Hall play. He seems to hit the ball the same speed every time. Of course there's exceptions where he slow rolls a ball or spins it to either curve it or change the angle off the rail.

Before long every shot will seem like a "straight in shot" if you make it that way (mentally of course). Try hitting actual straight in long shot with different speeds and spins and see how consistant you are. I understand that angled shots are different, but I'm just making an example of how precision is achieved. "By shooting your best shot as much as possible."

So, to learn this you must try to hit the same type shot and speed. This is something I encourage you to experiment with. The way I do it is to cue the ball slightly to the inside EVERY time to get the FEEL FOR IT (play 9Ball like this for 2-3 hours straight). Once you understand better how the cue ball responds it will open up a new way of playing and looking at pool. When I say cue it inside I do mean continue to use high, middle and low, you're just ALWAYS favoring the inside for this particular training.

Again, you don't try to spin it, you just let the cue go STRAIGHT through the ball and watch the effect on the object ball. The object ball is what you watch after contact, NOT the cue ball.

 

[naji]

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_dave
I'm not sure I agree with your first paragraph, because it is not clear to me what you mean. Inside english does create squirt (cue ball deflection) just like any sidespin shot. However, inside english does increase the amount of object-ball throw with small cut-angle shots and decrease the amount of throw with larger cut-angle shots. With inside english, the squirt and throw effects are in opposite directions, and they can cancel on some shots; however, the amount of swerve varies with shot distance, speed, cue elevation, amount of english, and conditions. Also, the amount of throw varies with shot speed, cut angle, amount of top/bottom spin, the amount of sidespin, and conditions. Therefore, things are not so simple.
Dave



Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_dave
...if the CB has a gearing amount of outside english, there is absolutely no throw. In this case, the proper advice is to hit the OB and cushion at the exact same time.
Also, if the CB has some more outside spin, then the proper advice is to hit the OB slightly first.

As I said above, I like aiming these shots as if the rail isn't there, which tends to take all these things into account. With that approach I find rail-frozen shots to be even easier than other shots, because the rail (pointing at the pocket) shows me clearly where the no-throw OB contact point is.

pj
chgo


Dr. Dave,
You posted the above in red, one says gearing inside english no throw, and the other one says inside english will throw!

I was using gearing english does that mean it makes me right with what i said earlier?

 

[Banks]

However, inside english does increase the amount of object-ball throw with small cut-angle shots and decrease the amount of throw with larger cut-angle shots

if the CB has a gearing amount of outside english, there is absolutely no throw


Dr. Dave,
You posted the above in red, one says gearing inside english no throw, and the other one says inside english will throw!

I was using gearing english does that mean it makes me right with what i said earlier?

No, one says 'inside' and the other says 'outside'. That, and he refers to how throw is affected by angle and speed.

You mention your methods once in a while, I was wondering - how do you play?

 

[naji]

No, one says 'inside' and the other says 'outside'. That, and he refers to how throw is affected by angle and speed.

You mention your methods once in a while, I was wondering - how do you play?

Thanks Bank, i did not realize it is outside, still i think gearing english either way does not throw OB at medium to high speed, yes it does throw at low speed, and stun, in my trial shots i have a laser line which ensure i do not have any swerve



You asked how i play, truthfully i do not know my level recently, i give a spot in one pocket to almost everyone comes to the pool room that i go to nowadays, some used to beat me, I can say A++ (where A++++ is pro level) in one pocket (30 years experience), and probably A in 9 or 10 ball. My issue i have full time work, and demanding family so, i brought the table home, and i go to local pool hall for limited time twice, mainly money games.

 

[DTL]

........................

 

[CJ Wiley]

Anyone notice the sound after contact?

Dave:

I agree (especially with bolded part above). In fact, in most cases, I like to use a decent amount (a tip or so, depending on the angle) of inside english on the standard 14.1 side-of-the-pack break shot (i.e. where the object ball [15th ball] is immediately to the side of the racked 14 balls, and the cue ball is in the vicinity of the middle of the table, with a nice angle into the rack).

In this shot (which I learned from John Schmidt), I hit this break shot with INSIDE DRAW -- pocketing the object ball into the corner pocket -- and having the cue ball hit the rack, spin over to the long rail, and back out to the middle of the table.

The throw effects of inside english, to me, are very predictable -- more so than using outside english (where you have to worry whether you're above, equal to, or below the "gearing" effect, as shown in your video).

Additionally, I like inside english's ability to put "pocketing english" on balls cut down the rail -- i.e. if the object ball hits the chiseled face of the pocket, the gentle spin spins it into (not resist) the pocket.

Good stuff,
-Sean

For some reason it's "natural" to want to use outside english, however, the inside is very predictable when you use it moderately by going straight through the cue ball.

I KNOW it gets better results and still have to remind myself to do it on a regular basis (this is common with pros on varying techniques - what "feels right" is sometimes wrong). I know the hit is correct (for me) when the cue ball has no "after spin" and appears to float after contact.

Dennis O. and I had a conversation about this in Vegas before he won the US OPEN 10 Ball tournament. He prefers to use the "measle ball" because it's easier to see the spin applied, after it hits the object ball.

I'm sure many of you will feel the difference in your hand between using outside and the "Touch" of Inside. Especially if you're now using the top of your tip you will get the sensation of a "harder", firmer hit on the cue ball. The sound may also be different. Anyone notice the sound difference after contact?

Remember, the game is played with the hands, it's easy to get distracted by biceps, triceps and shoulders. Make sure to concentrate your sensitivity on your hands/fingers for maximum feedback and touch. imo