WRISTS - The "hidden power catalyst" of a great stroke or "just along for the ride"?

Straightpool_99 said:
That makes no sense?:confused: I'm sorry but the way that the hammer stroke has been described has been that the grip is cocked FORWARD on the bakswing and then straightens out on contact. The snooker grip and wrist has the wrist in a neutral or slightly forward position at ball adress, then as the arm is pulled back, the wrist extends and maybe even bends slightly backward, only to snap forward (at impact to produce maximum velocity & power)on the forward swing. If you watch the video you can clearly see the players wrist extend (not extend but adduct) on the backswing...
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I think the confusion is in the terminology. Grip vs stroke! It IS possible to use a "hammer" grip on the cue, but it is NOT possible to use a "hammer" stroke such as in hammering a nail! Or at least, this is what I most would think a "hammer stroke" to be. Just as in golf, many teachers would describe the moment of impact with the ball as "hammering a nail". I think someone else said this too, the motions in pool are completely opposite. When you hammer a nail, the wrist goes from radial deviation to ulnar deviation in a downward (or backward) motion. When you "stroke" a cue with wrist action, the wrist goes from ulnar deviation to radial deviation in a forward (or upward) motion. If the video YOU posted is to provide the clues then here CJ's stroke in sequence. You will notice his stroke is indeed a pendulum stroke and the heel of his palm appears to never leave the butt of the cue. This not to say he might cock his wrist for a more powerful shot on rare occasion (other than break), but it is not his normal stroke. At least not in this video!
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CJ has been working with me for a time or two and has incorporated the "hammer" stroke into my routine. You can call it whatever suites you as far as hammer, grip, stroke.....whatever. Basically, if you would hold your cue out in front of you and grip the butt of the cue much like you would hold a hammer, then cock the wrist by pulling it back toward the shoulder and bringing the tip of your cue up toward the ceiling. This tightens the muscles in the forearm, bicep's, and shoulder. All of this tension is released at impact when the cue tip meets the cue ball. A very powerful stroke when done properly.
 
DTL said:
This makes perfect sense with the casting motion of a fly rod in that it all flows naturally in terms of what Mikjary mentioned earlier called the kinetic chain.......meaning what has to happen in terms of the sequence of movements of the elbow, forearm, wrist and fingers to make a successful cast . But the big difference is that this casting motion is the opposite of a pool stroke........with the casting of a fly rod the elbow is extending (straightening out) and the wrist is moving down at the finish vs the pool stroke where the elbow is flexing and the wrist is moving up.

Trying to consciously move the wrist down while the elbow is flexing and the forearm is moving forward is an unnatural sequence and as has been said already by me and others, it slows the cue down.

To say that this is adding acceleration and that one must do it "AT the moment of impact" is impossible.........if I'm not mistaken, the cue speed is slowed down considerably at impact due to the mass of the CB.
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But the part in red is why I specifically said the pool stroke is identical to the backcast portion of a classic fly cast, not the forward (fly delivery) cast. A fly cast has two distinct and basically equal components: the back cast and the forward cast. The back cast is similar to a pool stroke, the forward cast - the part everybody is so concerned about - is as you describe. It is like the forward cast with spin or bait casting that most folks are familiar with.

The forward cast is like the "hammer" stroke (as CJ has pointed out numerous times), and I cannot see any way possible that it can add a "quick burst of acceleration" at the moment of impact", or even just immediately prior to contact. How can levering the cue downward against your bridge move the cue in a forward direction?

I think this way of thinking may in fact be only for that 37% of the pool playing population - the 37% of players who continue to disregard the rules of geometry and physics and make up their own rules as they go along.

BTW fly casting is infinitely more complex and difficult than a pool stroke. Your mechanics have to be sound and your timing has to be impeccable or you will deliver an inferior cast as best, or end up with a Cape Cod earring (size 2/0 weighted Clouser hooked in your earlobe) at worst. Many pool players would benefit greatly from learning to fly fish properly. If nothing else it would teach them how to accelerate smoothly, because you just can't get off an effective fly cast otherwise.

Now, don't get me started on violin playing. Lol
 
cfrandy said:
I think the confusion is in the terminology.
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Or maybe it's in the fact that CJ just says whatever he thinks will sound cool to his market demographic. It doesn't have to actually mean anything or even be consistent with other things he said - it just has to sound cool to the clueless.

Add a random cute pic and some name recognition and you've got yourself a marketing strategy.

pj
chgo
 
What shots would make the hammer stroke more effective? Maybe set up a shot with different grips and show the benefits of any particular grip. Kinda like different ways to apply english and their benefits FHE,BHE and PARALLEL. Seeing is believing
 
yankee817299 said:
CJ has been working with me for a time or two and has incorporated the "hammer" stroke into my routine. You can call it whatever suites you as far as hammer, grip, stroke.....whatever. Basically, if you would hold your cue out in front of you and grip the butt of the cue much like you would hold a hammer, then cock the wrist by pulling it back toward the shoulder and bringing the tip of your cue up toward the ceiling. This tightens the muscles in the forearm, bicep's, and shoulder. All of this tension is released at impact when the cue tip meets the cue ball. A very powerful stroke when done properly.
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For creating power, that makes more sense than anything I've heard yet! It is possible to increase velocity of a pendulum/piston by creating tension before impact and releasing it at impact. However, this is NOT the "double pendulum" stroke of a hammer...wherein lies the confusion with the terminology. At least not as far as the wrist is concerned, since the motion of the wrist is exactly opposite in hammer vs pool...AND, most importantly, to apply "wrist torque" at this point (impact) would actually decrease the acceleration created by tension. It decreases acceleration because you would have to release tension to apply torque and that would occur BEFORE impact! Therefore IMHO the "catalyst" in the stroke you have described above is "tension" and NOT "wrist" as CJ describes it!
 
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jburkm002 said:
What shots would make the hammer stroke more effective? Maybe set up a shot with different grips and show the benefits of any particular grip. Kinda like different ways to apply english and their benefits FHE,BHE and PARALLEL. Seeing is believing
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Actually, I think the question should be - what shots REQUIRE a more powerful stroke. I cannot see using this stroke for anything other than breaking and rare occasions for position play on 9 or 10 foot tables. Just as with Mosconi, his stroke was almost entirely pendulum, but occasionally he would use a slip stroke to bust a rack.
 
CJ Wiley said:
There appear to be three different techniques for the wrist to assist the pocket billiards stroke. The first one is the wrists don't do much at all, the second is they cock up as you hit the cue ball and finish the stroke and the other is the wrists uncock down as the cue ball is struck and the follow through is completed.

The way I play is definitely with the wrists cocking down as I contact the cue ball. I have been committed to this technique the last couple of days and it's amazing the results. The thing about my technique is I can pre cock my wrists very precisely and that was how I consistently produce powerful stoke shots with such accuracy. This, ironically is what I've been struggling with the most. I seemed to have lost my "power source" that effortlessly produced pin point accuracy when striking the cue ball.

Many of you will not benefit from this information (because the way you use your wrists work fine for you), and others will benefit immensely when you're still searching to improve your stroke and accuracy.

I personally found a missing part to my "personal puzzle" and I'm surprised I didn't "real eyes" how important this technique was for me. Sometimes the simplest answers complete the most complex problems {for myself}.

For some reason my "reasonable" mind says "use outside english", however a "Touch of Inside" produces best results, and my mind says "don't use the wrists", however uncocking my wrists like I'm using a hammer is most effective, and my mind says "root against my opponent" when pulling for my opponent works best. The key to life seems to be making myself do {at times} what I least "naturally" want to do. As I get "more experienced" I see that unfolding in many areas.

The Moral of the story? "Reasonable" thoughts and techniques can often be the wrong thoughts and techniques to reach the highest levels. To separate yourself you must be "Unreasonable" at times. 'The Game is the Teacher'
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I tried that but I kept putting a touch of inside on the ball. :-)
 
cfrandy said:
Dave proves that regardless of the stroke you use, "maximum acceleration is achieved AT impact!" The speed of the cue is reduced AFTER impact! That's his words, not mine!
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Except for the last shot, the video and graphs show that maximum speed is achieved before impact.

I'm guessing that acceleration is about constant until just before impact where it decreases, causing the speed to level off.

The difference between speed and acceleration might seem nitpicky, but it helps to understand stroke dynamics and tip/ball interaction.

pj
chgo
 
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cfrandy said:
For creating power, that makes more sense than anything I've heard yet! It is possible to increase velocity of a pendulum/piston by creating tension before impact and releasing it at impact. However, this is NOT the "double pendulum" stroke of a hammer...wherein lies the confusion with the terminology. At least not as far as the wrist is concerned, since the motion of the wrist is exactly opposite in hammer vs pool...AND, most importantly, to apply "wrist torque" at this point (impact) would actually decrease the acceleration created by tension. It decreases acceleration because you would have to release tension to apply torque and that would occur BEFORE impact! Therefore IMHO the "catalyst" in the stroke you have described above is "tension" and NOT "wrist" as CJ describes it!
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The reality is that more spin, which seems to be the goal of this technique...is created by increasing acceleration. The problem a lot of players have is they hear torque and tension and when they shoot their grip goes from loose to tight through the ball. This would absolutely cause a decrease in acceleration. However, if your grip is always tight(er) or always loose than it doesnt f**kin matter. A player can use any type of system for aim, stroke, banks or kicks and it wont make a giant amount of difference in the long run. Find a technique and stick to it.
 
DTL said:
... Not many people know me as Ty on here............do I know you?
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Nope, I just remember from when you have posted your name. Incidentally, the AzB player database seems to think Duke and Ty are two different people.
 
Its all bulls**t and its bad for you

Wrist action v. no wrist action, elbow drop v. no elbow drop, CTE v. Ghostball IT DOESNT MATTER. The pool and billiards community has a terrible habit of glorifying and searching for instant gratification fixes to the game. CJ might be a champ but I also know he has dogged straight in 1 balls for some big break pot money. The best thing a player can do is find something and stick to it and make small tweaks and adjustments along the way. This whole wrist thing doesn't work for me on shots with speed because 1. I don't need it to increase power or spin 2. It feels unnatural on shots that require 'stroke'. Its like I'm forcing the cue to spin the ball instead of letting the cue do the work.

Now. A note to everybody who tries to emulate Shane's stroke. It is neither orthodox or accurate for normal humans, nor is it a good idea to emulate. However, Shane is a champ and I have a ton of respect for him. Instead of trying to emulate such a specific and peculiar stroke (that works for HIM). Emulating a solid, straight, and smooth stroke is going to be much better for your game. The Taiwanese have some of the most fundamentally sound mechanics in the history of the game. Kevin Cheng and Ko Pin Yi are two great examples.

I will say though. The "Secrets" to Shane's stroke are that is arm, grip, and wrist ADJUST around the cue, NOT power it. This type of adjustment happens because the cue makes contact at multiple points of the hand. 1 and 2 fingered stroke styles using front fingers and the thumb are excluded. However grips that use the middle and index finger a most prone.


Hold your cue how you normally would shoot. Now grip the cue with the middle and index fingers and the thumb as close to straight down as possible. Wrap trigger and pinky around cue for support. Try and pull the cue STRAIGHT back. This will cause your wrist to break and the cue to exert pressure on the webbing between the thumb and index finger. That pressure point is now one of the fulcrums for the cue to spring forward. The other (depending on how big your hands are should be near the heel of your palm. This is how you create unconscious "wrist action". It serves the same purpose as a very loose "fluttery" grip in that it allows the cue to guide the stroke. Charlie Bryant has a similar stroke.

All that being said. Shane also settles into is final stroke. His practice strokes are more like a waggle in a golf swing, rather than full swing warm up. This 'waggle' helps him settle into his final stroke. Before he pulls the trigger his arm subconsciously adjusts to stroking straight through the cue ball and doing so on a flatter plane. A lot of players who have a warm up stroke that is very different from their final stroke have a tendency to do this. Shane and a few other pros have a pendulum warmup but on their final stroke the cue seems to drop into a much flatter plane.

There a plenty of champions who use orthodox pendulums and plenty who have quirks and adjustments. Some use a closed grip, others use a finger and a thumb. What matters most is what you can do comfortably and consistently while maintaining a straight final stroke. The amount of spin and power you can impart on the cue ball will improve with time and practice.
 
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