Your Thoughts On lessions?

[ghostball]

Agree

Some instructors believe that the game is this certain way only, like you must stroke this way or stand a certain way sight this way,I have seen players all my live for 50yrs and they are all a little differant,not everyone can have a perfect stroke and stand perfect, every thing needs to be ajusted to the person who is looking to play better.
GOOD LUCK
RAY MARTIN

 

[Mark Avlon]

i wouldn't really call my problems fundimental problems they're not perfect but they're ok. the more i think about it my problem is probably more concentration based.
when people bring up lessons fundamentals always come in but there're plenty of good players (pro and otherwise) that have less than perfect fundamentals. what i'm thinking is what's next. after fundamentals what takes you to the next level? speed control? pattern play? all i read about it fundamentals do these other veriables not come into play.

Have you had a video analysis of your mechanics? If not, how do you know really know that they are 'OK'?

Long story short, the tape does not lie; Scott's review of my stroke on tape brought to light what it was that I thought I should be doing but wasn't.

The vast majority of players would do themselves good to check their mechanics.

 

[poolplayer2093]

Have you had a video analysis of your mechanics? If not, how do you know really know that they are 'OK'?



The vast majority of players would do themselves good to check their mechanics.

yes i have

 

[CaptiveBred]

CaptiveBred...Where in the world did you get that notion?

I got it from this thread. However, it looks as though I cmistook you for Mark Avalon. My apologies.

I still stand by my position though... This game is about knowledge and mechanics. You can't play without both. And knowledge is more important.

Think of it this way - You have a new student who has never picked up a cue before. You spend a month teaching them mechanics and never tell them how to pocket a ball. Now take a similar student and with her, you gloss over the mechanics and concentrate on the back of the pocket.

Who would you bet on?


In addition, you must know what to do with the skills you are learning to be able to use them. This goes for any field. What good is knowledge if you don't know what to do with it?

In pool, you MUST know what you are trying to do before you can use a stroke. Its true... If you don't know why you are hitting a ball a certain way, what good is a perfect stroke?

So, IMO, knowledge should be the first thing taught. Just like in any other field. Hands on experience comes after you understand what you are trying to accomplish.

In the case of most instructors, they are putting mechanics into practice before the student understands what they are doing... Kind of backwards to me. I think it should be ballanced better to create a stronger player in a shorter time frame /shrug...


OP - Sorry for the highjack. IMO, learn all you can before you seek instruction. You will be better armed and gain more from the lesson. You will have better questions to ask and absorb more of what they are telling you. I'd look for help as soon as I came to a dead end. I have yet to meet a player that has no clue where to improve. We all know of a shot we are to lazy to perfect... Once you, thoroughly practice everything you know you are weak ata, then get help...

 

[Flex]

CaptiveBred...Where in the world did you get that notion? I've never refused anybody anything...and neither has Randyg. The people who come to me WANTING advanced knowledge can have it anytime. The problem is that they can't replicate a stroke well enough to be able to apply it consistently. I'll still show them, even if they can't do it. Then, at least they have my stroke to try to copy, if they don't want to learn how to fit their own stroke to their bodies.

By far, more people come to me WANTING to learn how to stroke more consistently...and consequently that is what we work on. As far as better players not needing any work on your stroke, you're way off there too. You can be a B player...or even an A, and still have problems with your stroke. Many pros have come to pool school to better understand their own strokes. They weren't seeking playing knowledge...they're ALREADY pro players! They come to us to learn what they don't know, about their setup and delivery.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I remember when Jeanette Lee came to Mark Wilson's Billiards Bullpen to play some straight pool with him. Less than a year ago. At that time, I heard her say to Mark, "My stroke is so crappy..." or words to that effect.

If Jeannette Lee wants to improve her stroke...

Well, I rest my case.

Flex

 

[Mark Avlon]

In addition, you must know what to do with the skills you are learning to be able to use them. This goes for any field. What good is knowledge if you don't know what to do with it?

I agree 100% with you on this. It's the job of the instructor to pass knowledge to the student. We can't make a player great in the short time we spend with them, so we give them the knowledge and tools to develop their game on their own.

Our first class, and our mechanics portion of it, isn't strictly about moving the cue. We explain what we are trying to accomplish, why it's important, and how it's used.

Towards the end or our class, we teach the student to control the skid zone. After thirty minutes, they have a fairly good handle on it, and they have the knowledge they need to go home and practice it on their own.

If I took a typical student and tried to teach them to control the skid zone in the first hour, they couldn't control it. Their results would vary dramatically from shot to shot, and they wouldn't be able to effectively make adjustments because too many things are contributing to the problem. It could be any of a number of issues causing a poor stroke, alignment, or a lack of speed control.

A big part of what we do is developing a vocabulary so that we can effectively communicate with the student. Speeds are part of that vocabulary, and they have an objective measure. We don't use soft, medium, or hard, which everyone interprets differently. We use a specific speed when learning to control the skid zone, and the student has a clear way to know if their speed was correct or not, and by how much.

Simple, basic information are the foundations of all complicated and highly skilled tasks. Without them, it will be difficult to become proficient at the skill. Many players who have shot for a few years can do fairly well at this game without knowing many of the important basic pieces of information that they need to improve. They don't know what they don't know, and they look to learn advanced things without considering that there may be some basics that they really need, and that would have a bigger impact on their game.

 

[ShootingArts]

fundamentals and "good enough"

I'm going to make a flat statement: The vast majority of players are held back not by their lack of abilities to make certain shots or lack of knowledge but because of poor fundamentals. Sitting on the rail watching the local shortstops or watching the best in the world on the TV or computer what I see over and over are misses on the shots that if they had a thousand dollars riding on them making the shot a hundred times in a row they would win without breaking a sweat. However a momentary lapse of concentration which is a part of fundamentals, or poor mechanics once in awhile will cause that occasional miss.

I am playing with some new test apparatus on the back patio. My first discovery is that I usually hit about a tenth of an inch or a little less higher than I intend to. I also often hit about half that much right of where I intend to hit, maybe twenty-five percent of the time. Maybe one time in thirty or fifty something really weird happens and I hit either extremely high or extremely high right, over a tip. I haven't gotten anyone else to play with my toys but I have a strong feeling that similar wild hits on the cue ball will correspond to those easy shots that the shortstops and pro's sometimes miss.

I suggest that everyone keep up with their unforced errors: You were able to hit the cue ball cleanly, not encumbered by a rail or object ball, and the target ball could be seen and shot at a pocket without an extreme cut or bank yet you still missed. Every unforced error is a result of a breakdown in fundamentals. You lost concentration, you aimed wrong, or you didn't deliver the stroke and hit you intended. There are few people in the world whose game wouldn't jump quite a bit without these unforced errors.

My current goal is simply to hit the cue ball where I intend to more often and totally eliminate the wild hits on the cue ball. If I do that I will be able to apply the knowledge I already have and if I do these two things I will rarely get in the kind of jams that require sensational shot making. Pool games like races can go to the tortoise that plods along and doesn't make any mistakes.

Hu

 

[Blackjack]

Forgive me for my honesty, but I believe that sometimes our character building is lost in our rush for comfort.

I cannot teach any student that is unwilling to learn. If the student wants to challenge or question my methods of training, or if they believe they are above taking my suggestions, I won't be of much use to them.

I don't run a chickn$hit little unorganized class where all I do is break down basic fundamentals and shout instructions. Students that have taken more than one lesson with me can attest to the fact that I challenge every aspect of their game - both mentally and physically. I take what I do seriously. Occasionally I will attract some smart ass that will pay for one class, bull$hit his way through the first 30-40 minutes and then prance around the table trying to impress me by showing me that "their way" of doing things is better. It's their money not mine - if they want to pay me for wasting their time - be my guest.


I tell all of my students that a closed mind is a brick wall for knowledge and it will prevent any possible improvement.

I also tell them that an open mind is a black hole for knowledge and it is essential for improvement.

If you want to build your game, I can provide the the materials, but YOU have to pound the nails into the wood. I can assist you with laying the foundation, the blueprint, purchasing quality material, etc, etc... but I'm not going to do the dirty work for you. That may sound harsh, but I have no time for complaining or this weak little sister crybaby stuff about how I'm not teaching you what you WANT - mainly because I'm too busy concentrating on what you NEED.

Most players don't learn what they need to learn because they can't get their ego out of their way. This is the main reason why many players fail to reach their full potential - it's just easier to blame the instructor when they go down in flames or cave in to the self inflicted frustration.

I'm sure most instructors feel the same way I do about that.

Taking a lesson is an opportunity to learn - you either take advantage of that opportunity or you don't. That leads me to a famous quote by Thomas Edison :

"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work."

Nuff said.

 

[PoolSharkAllen]

My other thought on lessons is that the teacher has to know the intention of the student to take appropriate line of course. For instance , I'm a certified instructor for another sport. I start right off by asking what the students short and long term goals are. They usally fall in one of two catagories after that , those that want to make it to the highest level (Pro) in which I would start by breaking down all thier form issues and starting as close to textbook as is possible. That will usually be a long ugly road at first (depending on who long that have been playing) but with focus on long term results that will free them as much as possible from physical limits. This is not for alot of 'older' students in most cases.

Then you have those who have played awaile and just want basic instruction and help that will improve thier game more or less , now. There people you pretty much work with what they have and try and give them easily attainable short term goals.

Biggest issues in all cases is time. Most people don't realize the amount neede to make real long term improvement. They needs to be discussed right up front and made clear by both parties in order for thier to be satisfactiojn at the end of the relationship.

IMO.

Since you brought up the time aspect, could you elaborate? How much time does one need to commit for "real long-term improvement"?

 

[Gregg]

Forgive me for my honesty, but I believe that sometimes our character building is lost in our rush for comfort.

I honestly don't know what to say. It's posts like this from Blackjack that keep me coming back to the AZ.

When I went to see Scott Lee, I made up my mind, I set my mind like a steel trap, whatever he told me, I was going to believe blindly. It's hard to put my large ego aside, but I was determined to get the most out of the time and money I put in.

Personally, I got my moneys worth, and would have paid double to attend his school.

 

[pooltchr]

I only had lessons on position and pattern play from local gods. I never had foundation lessons which I wish I had taken long ago in the beginning... but I refuse to change the way I shoot now since I have the best chicken wing ever and I'm used to it.

I love my chicken wing.

If you change too much you can play worse overall is what I've seen. I only recommend lessons in foundation in the beginning of a players pool life. After that its more about how to hit / stroke / and pattern play.

I played pool for over 30 years before I took my first lesson. That class changed my game considerably, and for the better.

RandyG and I are wrapping up a week and a half of classes in Charlotte today. We didn't tell anyone they had to make changes, although we did offer some alternatives that many students found very helpful. We don't stamp out cookie-cutter players. We help students find their game, and then show them ways to make it more consistant.

If you have a little time, stop by The Green Room in Pineville later today. I would be happy to talk with you and see if we might have something to offer that could help you improve without changing your style. (If your chicken wing works every time, I don't have a problem with it. If it is hurting your game, we might look at some adjustments, but it's up to you whether or not you make the changes.

If you can't get down to Pineville today, give me a call...it can't hurt, and it just might help.

Steve

 

[pooltchr]

if you are a B player, you are not going to learn much from most instructor. All you will get is fundamentals...Just read all the posts here about people who have taken lessons... 99.99999999999956% of them all say the same thing - "he showed me flaws in my stroke" lol

Hardly any of them actually teach high level pool. You know, the secrets, the physics, the knowledge... Just stroke...

At your level, you need that more than anything. Good luck finding somebody who actually knows that stuff. The ones that do, don't teach... and they aint telling you cause they play competitively /shrug

I would disagree with your post. Yes, most instructors start with the fundamentals with every player, because that's where many problems with consistancy begin. But many of us go beyond that to get into the physics and "secrets" you mentioned. (Actually, there aren't any secrets, just information and knowledge that someone hasn't gained yet)

I'm not sure which instructors you have been to, but I just spent a week teaching with a BCA Master player and instructor, and our students were quite pleased with the things they learned. Several are already planning to come back for more.

Steve

 

[poolplayer2093]

from what i've read everyone here seems to be pro lessons. well i've taken some lessons and i've taken advice from good players and i've learned more from the players than i did from any of the lessons i've taken. i can honestly say tonight i played for about 5 hours. and i only missed 3 balls because i got lazy with fundamentals. in fact most of the shots i see missed are a result of bad decissions made prior to the missed shot.

 

[ShootingArts]

could you afford to miss those three balls?

You will play five hours in a middle sized tournament or many money matches. Odds are that your fundamentals will break down at the worst possible times as we see from others. How much will those three missed balls that you should have made cost you? I have played when one missed ball meant an overall loss.

Keep looking for the magic bullet and accepting your fundamentals as "good enough". You will remain an excellent player that doesn't quite get there.

Hu

PS I don't give or take lessons. However I know that I need lessons and I started playing seriously in 1970.

from what i've read everyone here seems to be pro lessons. well i've taken some lessons and i've taken advice from good players and i've learned more from the players than i did from any of the lessons i've taken. i can honestly say tonight i played for about 5 hours. and i only missed 3 balls because i got lazy with fundamentals. in fact most of the shots i see missed are a result of bad decissions made prior to the missed shot.

 

[Curdog]

Lessons

I've had a couple of lessons, which I have found very helpful. The difficult part was the length of time required to install the changes at a subconsious level. In fact, I still have not totally accomplished this after over a year. I'm pretty anal about this stuff, so just remember that time and effort are absolutely mandatory to achieve results.
The other thing that I find interesting is the comments by people who have never had a professional structured lesson and people who took lessons looking for the magic answer and quick results. After 50 years of shooting, I have yet to find any magic answers. The question you need to ask yourself is whether you really want to take your game to another level. Nobody can help you with this question. If you desire to take your game to a higher level is real, a lesson might be the answer. Only remember that the lesson will serve you no purpose at all, if you don't make the personal investment of time and effort to implement the recommended changes. Nothing is easy about the process. It's all about you and your dedication and perserverance. If you don't believe you will dedicate yourself to the entire process, don't waste your time and money.

 

[RRfireblade]

Since you brought up the time aspect, could you elaborate? How much time does one need to commit for "real long-term improvement"?

I'll tell those students if they aren't willing to put 3-5 years into it , they are not serious enough about it. Doesn't mean it will take that long but that is the commintment level required.

 

[DrCue'sProtege]

dont anybody misunderstand this, but...........there are a few people that i know that have taken lessons but dont want to take any more lessons from the same instructor simply because they fear they will be paying for the same lesson again.

i know a guy who told me about this very scenario. he said the instructor looked at him like he was crazy, and told him he forgot everything he went through last time, and he spent two hours with the same instructor getting the very same lesson.

when i used to have Tom Rossman down on December 26 every year, i always had a handful of notes about various issues (shots, cues, cloth, table, tournaments, mechanics, eye/optical issues, drills, strokes, etc, etc) that i wanted to pick his brain on.

DCP

 

[RRfireblade]

dont anybody misunderstand this, but...........there are a few people that i know that have taken lessons but dont want to take any more lessons from the same instructor simply because they fear they will be paying for the same lesson again.

i know a guy who told me about this very scenario. he said the instructor looked at him like he was crazy, and told him he forgot everything he went through last time, and he spent two hours with the same instructor getting the very same lesson.

when i used to have Tom Rossman down on December 26 every year, i always had a handful of notes about various issues (shots, cues, cloth, table, tournaments, mechanics, eye/optical issues, drills, strokes, etc, etc) that i wanted to pick his brain on.

DCP

Goes back to my previous post , if you both aren't on the same page then it's not going to work. Also if the student is not "learning" the lesson then it doesn't pay to go forward from there.

It's true what's been said , most 'students' want to be shown how to be great , very few actually want to learn to be. They say they do but they don't.

 

[Blackjack]

Goes back to my previous post , if you both aren't on the same page then it's not going to work. Also if the student is not "learning" the lesson then it doesn't pay to go forward from there.

It's true what's been said , most 'students' want to be shown how to be great , very few actually want to learn to be. They say they do but they don't.

And that is exactly my point as well. Don't expect GREATNESS if you put forth a HALF ASSED effort. Half assed efforts will get you half assed results. I've been teaching long enough to know when a player is lsitening and when they are not listening. I can sense when they are fighting the progress with their ego or just plain stubbornness and laziness.

As far as thinking that you're going to get the same class every time... well if you're not properly learning the initial lesson or showing progress - what am I supposed to do? Should I go on to the next level when you're still struggling with everything I showed you the first day? Chances are that no matter how long I work with you, I will constantly refer the student back to the fundamentals when other signs of trouble creep to the surface.

Players that want to get better will put in the time and they will listen to the person that is teaching them. At one time I was a student and I had to listen, learn, and do what I was told - and I was privliged to learn from the person that was teaching me, Cisero Murphy.

Back then, if I questioned anything, he would walk away from the table until I pulled my head out of my ass and remembered that I was the student and that I knew less about what I needed to learn than he did. Some of the things I was taught did not pay off until much later - mainly because at the time I was unable to fully understand why I was being taught that particular lesson. In the end, I was grateful for the knowledge and I was able to apply it when I needed it the most.

 

[sde]

dont anybody misunderstand this, but...........there are a few people that i know that have taken lessons but dont want to take any more lessons from the same instructor simply because they fear they will be paying for the same lesson again.

i know a guy who told me about this very scenario. he said the instructor looked at him like he was crazy, and told him he forgot everything he went through last time, and he spent two hours with the same instructor getting the very same lesson.
DCP

I took a lesson from Scott Lee a couple of months ago and I know that you also took a lesson from Scott shortly before mine. I know that you and I each received a DVD of our individual lessons and we have the opportunity to review our lesson as many times as necessary, until as Scott likes to put it, "It becomes like riding a bike with no hands."

I know that I have not reached the point where I can let the subconscious take over without constantly thinking about how I am supposed to do everything. And until I can ride that bike with no hands and can back it up with video analysis, I will not be thinking of another lesson. I'll just continue to review the DVD and practice the Mother Drills.

Steve