Zinzola Cues opinions?

I am not going to list names, but having looked over plenty of threads, there are members (not moderators) on this forum that always seem to have a comment when someone lists an opinion that is not positive. As far as I know the purpose of threads especially like these is to get opinions on a cue someone is maybe interested in buying. If people don't put his cues are great or perfect, or anything nice that person gets chastised by someone who is a friend of the cuemaker or just disagrees in general and that's when the back and forth arguments start. The term Nazi's was probably a poor choice of a word for what these people do in their posts...

All in all if people can't take opinions that are not always positive, then they shouldn't be posting. This is the real world not happy pool land. Now when an opinion is "negative" you still need to try to keep it objective and not a personal attack, but hopefully that will explain the gist of what the frustration I see and hear on plenty of threads where every single comment isn't positive about someones cues.

Apology for the term "nazis"...
 
Positive rep going your way. I agree with you 100%.

Goodness knows that nobody criticizes cuemakers in the forum! Everytime a deal goes bad for any reason, you'll find it documented here! So, I don't know why the heck cuemakers shouldn't join in the fun???!!!

tim
 
I agree completely with this poster. If you dare to disagree with someone on this forum you get red rep.This is supposed to be a forum about truth and opinions of different people and let the viewers be the judge.Don't shoot the messenger. Just state your opinion and the reasons for them and don't try to dominate the forum or shut people up with disparaging remarks.
Call Ernie himself and as him how much for a 5pt cue with veneers.... He'll tell you 6mo and $1700. Is that not close to what his asking prices are?

Jamie - I know you are going to defend the guy any way possible and I understand why. I don't fault anyone for that.... but at the end of the day, this is a consumer-driven website that should be able to cast their opinion without fear of retribution from anyone.

Unfortunately there are "gangs" (not in a literal sense) of people that have their own opinions that will castrate any of those that do not share the same opinion.... we all know of the "Varneyites"...

Anyways, that's my take on it - for as worthless as it may be....
 
Kinda sad that you cant voice your opinion, no matter if your a player, or builder...regardless of good or bad opinions...take the good with the bad....just my opinion though
 
i play with a zinzola cue and it is absolutely great. the points are perfect and so are the inlays and that for a very reasonable prize.
 
It is absolutely shows poor taste for one cuemaker to critique another cuemakers work on this forum. Always has, always will.

Let me think of a couple of words that come to mind: insecurity, jealosy.

There are very few cues on this planet that are absolutely perfect. I have seen one of Mr. Gracio's cues myself. Was it nice?..............Yes. Was it perfect?................I don't think so.

Tony's stuff has come light years in a short period of time. He continues to get better and better. He best stuff is yet to come.

He has gotten a lot of exposure on this site and deservedly so.

All you people that do nothing but get on this forum to bash someone who is trying to do nothing more than improve his cuemaking skills and make a living for his family, need to get a life.

I'm goin' to get bashed myself for this post. Bring it. I get fed up with this forum when it comes to all of these absolutely perfect people downgrading someone elses work.

Jim Kissinger


TAP, TAP, TAP, Positive rep to you sir.

I have no dog in this hunt, however I thought Scott's comments were a bit harsh, maybe he could have stated them with a little more tact and they would not have come across as strong. I respect Scott's right to express his opinion, but I cannot imagine Ernie, Murray, Dennis, Tim or many other cue makers coming on here and expressing their opinion quite that strongly. Just my .02 cents worth, if I am lucky I will eventually own cues from both Scott and Tony one of these days.

Everyone Take Care
-don
 
Thicker skin Y'all



I saw the Zinzola cues at the VF show. I was very disipointed in the quality. After looking at the price ($1700-$2200 if I remember correctly) I was shocked.
He does nice veneere work. He has a long way to go on the rest of the cue.



Is this really the "Bashing"?
Is this the "Harsh Criticism"?

What do you guys have? Tissue paper for skin...WTF?

................................

I posted in a thread a few weeks ago that I was excited to see Tony's cues at the show because the pictures look so great.

I too, am/was interested in a Zinzola cue.

I too, saw the cues in VF.

I too, was disappointed in the cues.

The pictures look amazing and when seeing them in person, I was not gonna pull the trigger on one.

.......................................

I realize that he said they were not ready (according to this thread) but that makes me wonder why he would show them?

People who are not familiar with Tony's work are going to base their opinions off of what they see up close in person and what was at the show was NOT an example of high quality/high dollar cues.

Having never seen one before the show except in pictures, I would have to look to another builder.

That is just the way it is. $1700.00 was too much for me to spend on what I saw.

Talk to Tony?, No I did not and didn't care too. For no other reason than there were MANY cues to look at and not enough time to ask each guy if this was the best he could build or if they were unfinished.

I'm sure many people were turned off by Zinzola's stuff. He hurt himself by showing poor quality/unfinished work.

I was disappointed with many of the cues I saw at VF due to the fact that this site and the "cliques/bandwagons" hypes these guys as if they are god's gift to building.

I could start a list of names but this is about Zinzola cues.


..............................

I am refreshed by HONEST opinions rather than a bunch of Bandwagon BS!

I saw Gracio cues
I saw Sugartree cues
I saw Zinzola cues
I saw Blackboar cues
I saw Southwest cues
I saw (fill in the blank) cues


Many are not PERFECT. The question is, how imperfect are they? Do the imperfections lower the "value" of the cue.

..........................

I understand that people are beginners and learning and that is what the world is about. I don't think anyone was saying that Zinzola's cues are bad. They are designed very well, great color choices, well executed veneers, designs are nice....but he still has a lot to learn. I believe while learning, you should price your items accordingly. Should not sell a $700.00 item for more than double that.

Things need to match up, be aligned, be straight, be consistent, be clean, be cohesive...that all comes in time.

The little details I look for in a great cue were not present.

..............................

Let me ask you this, If you purchased tickets to a rock concert to see your favorite band in the world, would you be satisfied with them singing Mary Had A Little Lamb?

Why should you be satisfied with sub standard craftsmanship from a favorite builder?

Do we not still expect quality?


For instance, I saw a Southwest in VF and was completely disgusted by the quality. They wanted $6500.00! Just because you have a good rep, don't be lazy and let things slide!!!

......................................


Oh yeah........ JMHO







*
 
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hey Gwen's up...

your words bring so much sense to this whole thread [for the first time, but Thecoats post was also excellent imho, but you added "being there" insight = priceless!].

{originally i felt that it would have better if Scott was a little more "delicate" in his criticism [but now i am not sure at all].}

so... you may have actually helped Zinzola more than anyone on this thread [maybe even more than that].

tap
tap
tap

all the best,
smokey
 
Gwen -

All true except that Mary Had a Little Lamb bit. I saw Stevie Ray Vaughn sing that tune and it was awesome. One of the best shows ever. He died a few months later and I am glad I didn't walk out.
 
I have been asked by a few friends if I was going to respond to this. I already did on another site that I don't think I can link here. If you look hard enough, you can find it.

I don't normally read anything on this site other than the cue makers section and the straight pool section, so until I received a phone call about these, I had no idea they were here. I read the other site first and responded. I don't think I've even read all of the posts here.
 
gwen's up...

i understand what u mean when u say he shouldnt have brought unfinished work to the show. but the reason he did that was because some of the cues were already spoken for so he brought them to show the owners. he stated beforehand that they were not ready as he fell behind due to some family problems that occurred the week before. but he didnt want to go to valley forge with nothing to show his customers so he told them that he would bring the cues but that they would not be ready to be delivered yet.

whether he should have brought them at all is debatable but from what i know, other cuemakers have done the same at the show before.
 
gwen's up...

i understand what u mean when u say he shouldnt have brought unfinished work to the show. but the reason he did that was because some of the cues were already spoken for so he brought them to show the owners. he stated beforehand that they were not ready as he fell behind due to some family problems that occurred the week before. but he didnt want to go to valley forge with nothing to show his customers so he told them that he would bring the cues but that they would not be ready to be delivered yet.

whether he should have brought them at all is debatable but from what i know, other cuemakers have done the same at the show before.




Thats all well and fine but do you think EVERYONE at the VF show is a AZB member?....NO!

I'm not saying he should or should not have brought them....just that many folks (who are not familiar with Zinzola or AZB) saw the pseudo-finished cues and made thier assessments. :)
 
Let me start by saying I have never met Tony in person nor have I handled one of his cues. I have conversed with Tony numerous times and we have done some business together. I consider him both a friend and a truly honest person who will go out of his way to insure that he is not shorting someone on any kind of transaction. If there is a problem with any cue that Tony builds, Tony would correct it. As far as experience and pricing goes, there should be no correlation. A person can create or work for what ever price he deems as correct. This could be his first cue or his 1000th cue is immaterial as far as price goes. You can ask any price you want but it is what someone is willing to pay that determines the selling price. It is what 2 people are willing to pay that determines the true "worth" of a cue. If you don't like it - simple, don't buy it. Often the buyers or dealers create the price structure by pushing or raving about a certain cue makers abilities which of coarse will drive up the cost exponentially. In this case the builder would be crazy to continue to build at a low price just so that a flipper will make a bunch of money on his efforts. Usually, this type of bubble will come to an end just like the Internet crash in the nineties and the housing market at present. Tony has just recently got into inlays and it has a very sharp learning curve. You've got to learn your software and the precision limits of your equipment. I feel he has made remarkable, even tremendous progress in his inlay work for the amount of time so far invested. Will it get better? Absolutely.

Now, the real reason that I am posting to this thread. It's not in defense nor to stick up for Tony. It has nothing to do with Tony. It is about how these type threads generally are useless to forming an opinion. I very seldom ever make a comment on other cue makers work unless I am talking to one person or small group in person. Seldom on a forum as this. I slammed Mr. Ed (Wheat) on his cue building experience and morals and most felt I was picking on the poor man. Now they don't.

There was a question asked and a number of people posted opinions. Many times, opinions are not based on experiences but just on uninformed opinions because someone happens to like or dislike the person or object being discussed. These opinions are completely useless and if anything are detrimental to the issue being discussed. Others have informed, knowledgeable opinions and should be considered with great consideration. As far as the cue makers opinion that his assessment of the cues he inspected were not up to par in his opinion should not have been stated is complete absurdity. Who better to see flaws than one who builds. More cue makers should make their true opinions known but few cue makers want to give their true opinion because they are afraid that the worm could turn and they would be in for a "critique". It's like the Police, to often they cover for each other. What good is this forum, or any forum, if the person asking the question can not expect a truthful answer. All I ever see is people raving about custom cues with their "monster hits" and "hits like a ton". Are their never any normal cues built? Just because they are Custom made doesn't necessarily make them perfect and the cats meow. I've seen on the For Sale forum where some one posts a cue for sale raving about it's looks and hit and when someone disagrees they are told that they aren't allowed to say such a thing and to stay off of the thread if they can't say just nice things. This really makes for an informed purchase. Rave about my cue or stay away. Pity-full!!!

Dick
 
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It is absolutely shows poor taste for one cuemaker to critique another cuemakers work on this forum. Always has, always will.

Jim Kissinger

I also don't think that a cuemaker should degrade someone else's work in public. Do they have a unwritten rule? Yes. It is called class.

The question asked needs all opinions and should not be restricted to only good remarks but anything negative from another cuemaker it is just wrong. I was always told that if you cannot say anything good about someone don't say anything. Sometimes saying nothing has greater meaning.

I think that Mr Gracio meant well and had good intents. He was just giving his opinion about what he thought and seen, but he should have brought it up with Tony at his booth. It is just unfortunate that it turned into the situation that it has.
 
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Thats all well and fine but do you think EVERYONE at the VF show is a AZB member?....NO!

I'm not saying he should or should not have brought them....just that many folks (who are not familiar with Zinzola or AZB) saw the pseudo-finished cues and made thier assessments. :)


i dont understand what that has anything to do with what i said. u asked the question why tony would show unfinished cues so i gave u an answer. that was the only point i was addressing. i never said everyone was an az member nor is that relevant. all i said was that he brought them there because he wanted to show some of the other customers their cues, which is an answer to your question.

but if u want to talk about the cues then i guess we can do so. i recognize that some of the cues have flaws, tony has acknowledged this as well, but to claim that the 4 point 4 veneer cue with black paper veneers, an elephant ear wrap, ivory joint and ivory hoppe ring along with expensive wood (this isnt just a simple cocobolo into maple cue) as a 700 dollar cue is preposterous. if u can find someone who makes a decent cue and can put all that stuff on the cue and sell it to me for 700 dollars let me know. heck, find someone who can make a well constructed cue like that with 2 shafts with a normal joint and no hoppe ring or elephant ear wrap for 700. u might find some but it'll be hard.

also, regarding those cues, what did u find was a problem with them aside from the finish and slightly dirty wraps as those werent completed yet/

it's like u said tho, u didnt bother to ask talk to him at all but now u're going taking the time to criticize his work (not meant to sound negative). it hardly seems fair to criticize some of his incomplete work does it not? and like i said, whether he should have brought incomplete work to the show is up for debate, all im saying here now is that since u now know that the cues were incomplete, would it still be right to criticize it without having seen the final product? if the answer is yes then tony shouldnt be the only one we are talking about since i doubt other cuemakers cues are "perfect" even when they're incomplete.

what i do want to know is what problems do ppl have with the cues? cuz so far i've just seen a lot of comments stating that they saw the cues and werent impressed. some have brought up the inlays but aside from that there hasnt been much else. so is there anything else that ppl have problems with? i just wanna know cuz no one has said much so far. i believe some ppl see what mr. gracio did as bashing because he didnt state anything specific. all he said was that the cues werent very good. but without any details it just seems like he's bashing the cue.

another thing to address are the pics of the fleur de lis inlays that jay posted. they look a lot worse because one is from the forearm and the other is from the buttsleeve. those who have seen the cue in person will know that the buttsleeve inlays are much larger. but they are the same size in the pics jay posted so clearly one was blown up which accounts for the difference. also, they werent meant to be identical since they're different sizes.
 
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Nuff said

There was a question asked and a number of people posted opinions. Many times, opinions are not based on experiences but just on uninformed opinions because someone happens to like or dislike the person or object being discussed. These opinions are completely useless and if anything are detrimental to the issue being discussed. Others have informed, knowledgeable opinions and should be considered with great consideration. As far as the cue makers opinion that his assessment of the cues he inspected were not up to par in his opinion should not have been stated is complete absurdity. Who better to see flaws than one who builds. More cue makers should make their true opinions known but few cue makers want to give their true opinion because they are afraid that the worm could turn and they would be in for a "critique". It's like the Police, to often they cover for each other. What good is this forum, or any forum, if the person asking the question can not expect a truthful answer. All I ever see is people raving about custom cues with their "monster hits" and "hits like a ton". Are their never any normal cues built? Just because they are Custom made doesn't necessarily make them perfect and the cats meow. I've seen on the For Sale forum where some one posts a cue for sale raving about it's looks and hit and when someone disagrees they are told that they aren't allowed to say such a thing and to stay off of the thread if they can't say just nice things. This really makes for an informed purchase. Rave about my cue or stay away. Pity-full!!!

Dick

TAP TAP TAP
You Sir are my hero.I have been a memeber of this forum for nearly two years.In this time I have watched many of the threads were people either pile on the "nut huggers" wagon or talk trash out thier backsides with no apparent credentials at all.
I chose to keep a low profile most times , not wanting to enter into one of the flame wars that inevitabley occur.Even as this thread began to unfold you knew it would quickly deteriorate.
I believe Scott had every right to post his opinion and Jamie has every right to his.
Since both are forum members and also have a significant interest or connection to pool cues as a source of income I believe thay have forgotten one very important thing.
It's not to say that either has done anything improper but they need to avoid any appearence of impropriety.I'm sure when cooler heads prevail Scott might wish he had taken another minute before giving his opinion & maybe worded his post a little differently and Jamie might reconsider his initial reaction.
I feel both Scott & Jamie have knowledge & input that will be benificial to this forum & it's membership.

Just my .02.

Thanks

Jim
 
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