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St. Louis Louie vs. Archer 1990

T411
sjm said:
Well, I've been around pro pool for 50 years, so I've watched them all.

I strongly disagree. They did not shoot as straight back then and, with a few exceptions, their fundamentals were not on a par with those of today's top cueists.

Agreed that it's not all about talent, but superior training and video resources are available to today's crop, and they play with far more technical elegance than all but a few of the last generation of players.

The current generation shoots straighter and has raised the level of decision making relative to the stars of the past. The next generation will exceed the performance of this one, and that's the normal progression of things.

For now, however, we are watching the most talented cueists that the game has ever seen, and as has been noted, it is chiefly because the number of players worldwide has skyrocketed.

Many of the old timers want to believe that the best of yesteryear were as skillful as the best of today, but it is simply not the case. The game has and will continue to evolve.
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For the most part I won’t argue about the amount of players that can shoot as well as anyone ever has… and why. I tend to agree. But I’d argue overall that the past generation of players knew how to move around the table a little better because there were no jump cues and because of rule changes. Some of these young kids shoot so damn well though it’s hard to exploit this even if it is a weakness.
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World Pool Championships 2025, July 21-26, Jeddah

sjm
Badpenguin said:
You can only see one table from the US via wnttv.com.
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Agreed that this was shocking. Perhaps this will be resolved tomorrow.

Worse, what we've gotten on Table 1 is two matches that were forgone conclusions before they began in Gorst vs Henderson and Shaw vs Al-Ohtaibi.

There were some very good matches today, but American fans did not get to see them.
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Does the type of joint really affect the value of a cue that much?

T
iusedtoberich said:
SS joints are as dead as dinosaurs. I agree, they won't sell today, unless to an old school collector.
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I respect your opinion, but disagree with this statement. Have you played with a Tascarella, Tim Scruggs, Black Boar or Schon with a steal joint? All these cues play great and are still very relevant in the cue sales market.

Thanks
-don
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St. Louis Louie vs. Archer 1990

sjm
middleofnowhere said:
I think the players from years ago could play with today's players assuming they adapted to modern style of play. I don't think it is a matter of less talent. Old time players were mostly gamblers and played different because they didn't value any one game or set that much.
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Well, I've been around pro pool for 50 years, so I've watched them all.

I strongly disagree. They did not shoot as straight back then and, with a few exceptions, their fundamentals were not on a par with those of today's top cueists.

Agreed that it's not all about talent, but superior training and video resources are available to today's crop, and they play with far more technical elegance than all but a few of the last generation of players.

The current generation shoots straighter and has raised the level of decision making relative to the stars of the past. The next generation will exceed the performance of this one, and that's the normal progression of things.

For now, however, we are watching the most talented cueists that the game has ever seen, and as has been noted, it is chiefly because the number of players worldwide has skyrocketed.

Many of the old timers want to believe that the best of yesteryear were as skillful as the best of today, but it is simply not the case. The game has and will continue to evolve.
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So having a few cues build......should I take a loupe to it?

ShootingArts
A loupe can be a good negotiating tool. Very rare a cue is flawless. It is a lot like people magnifying a cue twenty or thirty times on a monitor then bitching about the quality.

The silver Ginacue is one of the most valuable cues in the world, maybe worth a half million or more. It is full of flaws when examined under high magnification.

There are a lot of cheats and slights to make things appear perfect. Veneers, oversized inlays with a gnat's ass of taper, the list is long.

If a person wanted to look at a cue of mine that wasn't for sale with a loupe I would tell them to go away! Most cues are built without magnification during construction and my personal opinion, that is the standard they should be judged by.

Playing around I magnified a polished chrome plated dome shaped piece of metal to the size of a large saucer. It was full of dents and dings and scratches but to the eye, and to the hand, feel, it seemed perfect!

For cues that don't cost tens of thousands, I would call perfect to the naked eye good enough.

Hu
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-:-:— SCHON LTD 6 POINTS EXTRA 314 PREDATOR SHAFT —:-:-

C
THIS 6 POINT SCHON LTD LOOKS AMAZING IN PERSON
5/16 14 SS PILOTED JOINT
SCHON’S USUAL RINGS AT A,B
DECO RINGS AT C,D,E HAVE 6 TURQUOISE RECTANGLES IN EACH ONE
BEM FOREARM
6 POINTS WITH BLACK VENEER
LEATHER WRAP FEELS GREAT-LOOKS LIKE FAUX ELEPHANT EAR
BUTT SLEEVE IS EBONY WITH 4 RECTANGLE BLOCKS WITH TURQUOISE DIAMONDS-4 UP DOWN DIAMONDS BETWEEN EACH RECTANGLE
SIGNED SCHON LTD ON BUTT CAP
58” CUE—EVEN SPLIT
BUTT WEIGHS 14.9OZ.
SCHON SHAFT IS 13MM AND WEIGHS 4.3OZ.—I THINK IT’S A CAIDEN TIP
PREDATOR 314 SHAFT IS 11.9MM AND WEIGHS 3.3OZ. TRIANGLE TIP
CUE IS IN EXCELLANT CONDITION AND PLAYS LIKE A SCHON
HERE’S YOUR CHANCE TO GET A 6 POINT SCHON LTD
PPFF OR ADD 4% FOR G&S—VENMO—ZELLE—POSTAL MONEY ORDER
ASKING $2250 SHIPPED TO LOWER 48
——-NEW LOWER PRICE $1950 SHIPPED——
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St. Louis Louie vs. Archer 1990

M
sjm said:
This is certainly a thoughtful and well-presented post, but I'd suggest that the level of play was raised more from 2015-25 than from 1980-2015, and advances in equipment has almost
nothing to do with it. The cues and tables were just as good ten years ago as today.

As you've rightly pointed out, the biggest change is how many more players there are. The globalization of the game over the past ten years has given rise to a Fargo Top 50 that includes at least one player from each of Iraq, Spain, Singapore, Albania, Poland, Vietnam, Bosnia, Hungary, Hong Kong, and Lithuania. Today's top players shoot at a much higher level than their counterparts of ten years ago.

When the IPT came along in 2006, all living hall of famers, many of whom still played at a very high level, were invited to the first full-field event, the IPT Las Vegas tournament. Mike Sigel predicted that the hall of famers, because of their high comfort level with the nappy cloth that was being used by the IPT, would thrive. This must go down as one of the worst predictions in the history of our sport, as the younger players easily adjusted to the conditions of yesteryear and not even one old-timer made a deep run. I am not buying any suggestion that this generation would have had any trouble with the old nappy conditions.

Just ten years ago, 4 1/2" pockets were the norm in top pro competition. The pockets are much tighter now because the standard of play has risen to a level most of us never imagined possible. One reason is that today's players have training resources available to them that were unavailable to the last generation.

Still, where you are undeniably right is in suggesting that one cannot fairly compare players across generations. Each player must be measured against his/her contemporaries. There is no way to fairly compare a Lassiter to a Mizerak to a Sigel to a Van Boening to a Filler. All we can say of each is that their performance against their contemporaries was phenomenal.

In short, we agree but we also disagree.
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I think the players from years ago could play with today's players assuming they adapted to modern style of play. I don't think it is a matter of less talent. Old time players were mostly gamblers and played different because they didn't value any one game or set that much.

Tournament play is sudden death and you can't just throw away a game. Completely different mind set. Watch Ronnie Allen for example shoot some crazy one pocket shot and you think he was nuts. He is not nuts, no one is going anywhere. They are going to play till there is a winner and it may take all night or even multiple session over a few days.

People often say many money players were not good tournament players. It's just different and they probably had no desire to play that tournament style, "Going to the electric chair" if they miss a ball.
Every generation of players have tremendous talents governed by current circumstances.

I remember being at a tournament with Big Bob and he was playing a match and looked so nervous he could not get out from anywhere. When the match was over a little while later he is playing a guy in front of the same crowd who were still hanging around $500.00 nineball happy as a clam drilling the guy completely relaxed.
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World Pool Championships 2025, July 21-26, Jeddah

Island Drive
billiards_watch said:
Pool is not everything to some.

I rather be at a wedding too.
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Or better yet!!!!
United States Airforce Graduation Colorado Springs 2025.
I've been around here, the west side/Manitou Springs since 70's.

On the news today....There was a Samoan graduate....
then....................20 family members showed up.
Cool, havin'. Some good times in the Rockies. :))))
I enjoyed seeing the graduates smile (s) and now they all got 60 days off.
Some to get married.
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