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Yapp’s Controversial Tournament-Winning Shot in the 8-Ball World Championship … Was it a Foul?

sjm
jbart65 said:
Come now, sjm. Citing ... a Wikipedia entry with no attribution to an original source (because there is none). Wikipedia!

The word 'ass' has been around a long time. No disputing that. But the construction of the phrase "masses are asses" definitely has a modern tinge, not an 18th century one.

I was a Hamilton cheerleader years before Ron Chernow wrote his bio and the play followed. None of his biographers ever referenced this alleged statement. I've read a lot of Hamilton's private and public correspondence. He just did not write or speak like that.

An AI search suggests the phrase was popularized in a poem by Don Seitz and later used in a 1974 play by Pedro Pietri. True? Who knows.

My verdict: The attribution of the phrase to Hamilton was a foul. I don't blame Yapp, though!
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Thanks for the background. Many quotes are apocryphal. When I visited the battlefield at Bosworth in Leicestershire, England, where Richard III was killed by forces led by Henry VII, the tour guide noted that, despite Shakespeare's reference, Richard III surely never said "my kingdom for a horse." She claimed that the scenario in which Richard III would not have had access to a horse at any point of the battle of Bosworth was unimaginable to any scholar of the period. Other quotes are equally unfathomable. The saying "Nero fiddled while Rome burned" is absurd as it predates the invention of the fiddle.
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Joss Event - $1,500/$500 Added - Yale Billiards - Wallingford, CT - April 18 & 19

Dana Bufalo
Congratulations to Stop 15 winners - Ron Casanzio ($1,200 main event), Shawn Jackson ($330 second chance) & $1,800 Joss Cue raffle winner Gene Black, Also, to our current tour point leader Jeremy Sossei for a paid entry into Allen Hopkins Super Billiards Expo 9-Ball Pro Event (April 9-12, 2026), Courtesy of Allen Hopkins!!!! Thanks again Allen!!

The Joss Northeast 9-Ball Tour will once again be at Yale Billiards in Wallingford CT on April 18 & 19, for a $2,000 ($1500+$500) added 9-ball event. Our host Bobby Hilton deserves much credit for bringing our tour back to Connecticut and all he does to promote our great sport of pocket billiards. So let’s come out in big numbers to show our support! Yale Billiards has been around for 30+ years with just the last 6 or 7 in their new building. They have a full bar with an extensive bar food menu and now with a food truck out back to satisfy all of our needs. There are 16 Gold Crown tables (including 8 brand new GC 7's) all covered with 860HR Simonis plus a few bar boxes for league play. Yale Billiards is also the home of the increasingly popular "The Sharkstream" which allows for live streaming league and tournament pool matches as well as our event. You can access the live stream on Face book on "The Sharkstream" page or on You Tube by searching Yale Billiards Shark Stream. So come on down to compete or just watch another great tournament. Be sure to take a chance on winning a beautiful, $1,800 custom engraved Joss cue in the cue raffle. Anyone can participate and you do not have to be present to win! We will draw for the cue just prior to the finals of the main event. This beautiful cue can be viewed here: https://josscues.com/product/joss-northeast-9-ball-tour-25-26/ .

For more information visit them at yalebilliards.com or call them at 203-294-9591.

If you will be in need of motel accommodations, please call the room at 203-294-9591.

This event at Yale Billiards will consist of a $1500 added Saturday and Sunday Main Event (entry Fee $120 for pro level or $70 for non pro level, plus any applicable tour fees) and a $500 added second chance event on Sunday ($20 Entry Fee) for those non pro players eliminated from the main event on Saturday. All of our billiard parlor main events are races to 9 on the winner’s side and races to 7 on the one loss side. Be advised that I reserve the right to alter the format to accommodate large fields or at the direction of the host room owner.

For those of you coming to play, please arrive on Saturday April 18, BEFORE 11:00 AM, and in proper dress please. Jeans and sneakers are permitted in our billiard parlor events. But please, No T-shirts, No tanks, No shorts or sweats. The dress code will be STRICTLY ENFORCED!! Complete tour info can be found on our site http://www.joss9balltour.com .

Please remember to spread the word to frequent your local billiard parlors and utilize the world class products of our most generous sponsors. They are the backbone of our sport and deserve our support more than ever!!

I hope to see you all at Yale Billiards.

Mike Zuglan

The Joss Northeast 9-Ball Tour Is Proudly Sponsored By;
Joss Cues - http://www.josscues.com
Turning Stone Resort Casino - http://www.turningstone.com
Simonis Cloth - http://www.simoniscloth.com
AzBilliards.com -http://www.azbilliards.com
Aramith - http://www.aramith.com
Billiards Press - http://www.billiardspress.com
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Yapp’s Controversial Tournament-Winning Shot in the 8-Ball World Championship … Was it a Foul?

Island Drive
BasementDweller said:
Is it possible for a player who is under say -- FR 600 -- to be a good referee? Yes, it's possible. Is it likely? No. Thoroughly experiencing the ball interactions for years gives you a baseline understanding, which you can then use to map all the fine details on to.

Do tourney directors have these types of skilled players/referees to draw upon? Nope.
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Yes I am one of those culprits..... and the cue ball direction off the first ball was too obvious.
Now if he would of spin cut the 8 ball then it could of easily been a good hit.
If this was an European ref then they are still learning about the larger ball interactions.
Wonder how they'd do in 3 cushion.
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Yapp’s Controversial Tournament-Winning Shot in the 8-Ball World Championship … Was it a Foul?

J
sjm said:
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:

The Masses Are Asses is a quote attributed to Alexander Hamilton

Also of note is this from https://factually.co/fact-checks/language/ass-word-evolution-donkey-to-insult-a69e33 :

The donkey has long carried literary baggage as a symbol of stubbornness or foolishness; by the medieval period likening a person to a donkey had clear insulting force, and by the 12th–13th centuries "ass" was already used derogatorily to mean a stupid or clumsy person

So, people have been talking this way for almost 1,000 years.
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Come now, sjm. Citing ... a Wikipedia entry with no attribution to an original source (because there is none). Wikipedia!

The word 'ass' has been around a long time. No disputing that. But the construction of the phrase "masses are asses" definitely has a modern tinge, not an 18th century one.

I was a Hamilton cheerleader years before Ron Chernow wrote his bio and the play followed. None of his biographers ever referenced this alleged statement. I've read a lot of Hamilton's private and public correspondence. He just did not write or speak like that.

An AI search suggests the phrase was popularized in a poem by Don Seitz and later used in a 1974 play by Pedro Pietri. True? Who knows.

My verdict: The attribution of the phrase to Hamilton was a foul. I don't blame Yapp, though!
Click to expand...

Yapp’s Controversial Tournament-Winning Shot in the 8-Ball World Championship … Was it a Foul?

B
dr_dave said:
I think a ref's knowledge of, understanding of, and experience with applying the rules is much more important than playing ability. I have seen countless examples of many world-class players being clueless about certain basic rules (like how to judge double hits and split-hit fouls). Lots of examples can be found here, where the players are sometimes choosing shots that any knowledgeable and experienced referee would know are going to be obvious fouls:

Here's one notable recent example:

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Some world-class players being clueless about specific rules, doesn't mean they aren't generally more knowledgeable about what is and what isn't possible on a pool table. Possible fallacious thinking there from the good doctor 😀

I think you maybe too close to the forest on this, being that you're among a very select group that both plays well and has very high-level knowledge. You're nearly one of a kind.

Sure the knowledge is ultimately the most important aspect, but what does a referee map their knowledge on to if they haven't already processed thousands of object ball interactions? If a player loses an important match from a double-hit foul call at some point in their career, they're going to more easily understand the rule once it's explained to them. There's also a reason APA 3's aren't randomly asked to watch close hits during a tournament. We intuitively understand that better players, by necessity, pay closer attention to what's happening on the table. That's part of what makes them better players.
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Yapp’s Controversial Tournament-Winning Shot in the 8-Ball World Championship … Was it a Foul?

M
dr_dave said:
I think he suspected it could have been a foul, but I don't think he was sure it was a foul. If he was sure, I suspect he would have called a foul or asked for a review. Regardless, all of this is the job of the ref, not the player.
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To paraphrase what you said. I think he knew it was a foul and hoped he got away with it. Let's be honest here, the ref just was not in the right position to make a definitive call.

That's why when available you have replay. To be honest, at least from many viewers watching. Regardless of the path of the cue ball, it actually looked like a bad hit visually. Just watching from home my wife and I both yelled out that was a bad hit at the same time.
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Yapp’s Controversial Tournament-Winning Shot in the 8-Ball World Championship … Was it a Foul?

sjm
jbart65 said:
Alexander Hamilton said no such thing. It's not how people talked in the 1790s. Perhaps the 1890s or 1990s ...

Hamilton did think the masses might not be capable of governing wisely, and he wrote or spoke such sentiments in words more suited to his times. But he also supported the Constitution in the end.

Hamilton wasn't alone. Most of the founders had suspicions of popular democracy. Which is why they created a Republic!

Now back to our regularly scheduled foul controversy ...
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The Masses Are Asses - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:


The Masses Are Asses is a quote attributed to Alexander Hamilton


Also of note is this from https://factually.co/fact-checks/language/ass-word-evolution-donkey-to-insult-a69e33 :

The donkey has long carried literary baggage as a symbol of stubbornness or foolishness; by the medieval period likening a person to a donkey had clear insulting force, and by the 12th–13th centuries "ass" was already used derogatorily to mean a stupid or clumsy person

So, people have been talking this way for almost 1,000 years.
Click to expand...
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