Filler’s 3-Rail Kick in the Reyes Cup … Was it the Right Choice?

What other way to learn is there than trying to analyze the reasons though? It's not like Joshua is using some black magic to make those decisions. They are logical and deductible, even if tricky to do so. You can disagree with Dr Dave's opinion about what the correct shot was, but I don't think criticizing him for stating his opinion is very fruitful.

As for the actual topic of the video, IMO it all boils down to what % Filler felt like he would make contact with the OB with the 3-railer. If he deemed the percentage high enough, then he might've felt that the overall probabilty of winning the frame is higher with that route giving better leaves on average with the speed he hit it with.

For example, if I was faced with that situation, aiming to maximize odds of hitting the ball, I'd estimate my 3-railer to make contact maybe 40%, and the 1-railer like 98%. I'd probably think that the 3-railer gave slightly better leaves on average, but nothing near enough to justify choosing a 40% path over a 98% path. It's not like I'd be doing this math while playing, but just the general feeling of "almost guaranteed hit with slightly worse leaves on average" vs. "less than 50% to hit with slightly better leaves on average" makes me select the first option as the correct one for me.

As for what % Joshua would hit the 3-railer, we'll never know for sure. But seeing that he selected it, I suspect he estimated it to be high enough for it to be worth it. Even at 80% contact (just guessing at a figure for the sake of an example) it might flip the 3-railer into giving better overall odds than the 1-railer. Judging this more precisely would require analyzing the leave odds of both routes more deliberately. My analysis is simply based on the general feeling of the 3-railer giving somewhat better leaves on average with the speed Joshua hit it with compared to the 1-railer, most notably due to the cue ball staying near the end rail with high likelihood.
I respect your post.

Filler’s 3-Rail Kick in the Reyes Cup … Was it the Right Choice?

I understand why you make videos about how to, but a video on whether a #1 in the world player played the right shot seems a bit outside of your wheelhouse. Way too many variables that the viewer cannot know, that Joshua does.
What other way to learn is there than trying to analyze the reasons though? It's not like Joshua is using some black magic to make those decisions. They are logical and deductible, even if tricky to do so. You can disagree with Dr Dave's opinion about what the correct shot was, but I don't think criticizing him for stating his opinion is very fruitful.

As for the actual topic of the video, IMO it all boils down to what % Filler felt like he would make contact with the OB with the 3-railer. If he deemed the percentage high enough, then he might've felt that the overall probabilty of winning the frame is higher with that route giving better leaves on average with the speed he hit it with.

For example, if I was faced with that situation, aiming to maximize odds of hitting the ball, I'd estimate my 3-railer to make contact maybe 40%, and the 1-railer like 98%. I'd probably think that the 3-railer gave slightly better leaves on average, but nowhere near enough to justify choosing a 40% contact path over a 98% contact path. It's not like I'd be calculating probabilities while playing, but just the general feeling of "almost guaranteed hit with slightly worse leaves on average" vs. "less than 50% to hit with slightly better leaves on average" makes me select the first option as the correct one for me.

As for what % Joshua would make contact with the 3-railer, we'll never know for sure. But seeing that he selected it, I suspect he estimated it to be high enough for it to be worth it. Even at 80% contact (just guessing at a figure for the sake of an example) it might flip the 3-railer into giving better overall odds than the 1-railer. Judging this more precisely would require analyzing the leave odds of both routes more deliberately. My analysis is simply based on the general feeling of the 3-railer giving somewhat better leaves on average with the speed Joshua hit it with compared to the 1-railer, most notably due to the cue ball staying near the end rail with high likelihood.

Filler’s 3-Rail Kick in the Reyes Cup … Was it the Right Choice?

Nice video. It's a close choice for sure.

Respectfully, I disagree with one aspect of your analysis. Some of the results that you deem acceptable off the slowish one rail kick may not leave a good shot but leave a two-way bank shot. To me, one part of the gospel of tactical play is to avoid leaving two-way shots of any kind at all costs. Leaving one, to me, is, practically selling out.

Still, most of your analysis is dead on. If I'm going one rail here, I'm never going soft. My intent would be to send the 7ball to the top rail if at all possible. It requires neither a soft nor hard hit, just a medium speed hit. Going three is reasonable, increasing the risk/reward nature of the shot.

Hence, I think it's a very close choice between a medium speed one railer and the three railer with intention to pocket the ball. We don't know whether this type of three-rail kick is something Josh practices, so we can't be certain of what the right play here was for him.

Josh' choice was reasonable, but there are arguments for the one-railer. I do not believe that the score was a factor in Josh' choice. As Nick Varner once said: "every rack is a race to one." Josh surely felt that the three-railer was his best path to winning that rack.

I agree with most of this.

What is an acceptable leave depends greatly on your opponent. If Josh was playing a 600 level player, many of the leaves are fine, but against another elite pro they are sell outs. In general the elite pros know that they are big underdogs if they let their opponent see the whole ball even if it it’s not pocketable. So I think going for the “make” on the three railer makes sense for him in this situation.

I also would expect Josh and all the elite players to shoot some reference kick shots on the table. For me, I will always try the standard 3 rail corner to corner on any new table and find the required adjustment. I’m actually surprised he missed it, given how close the starting position was to a standard 3 rail kick. That said, the cloth seemed *extra* slippery at the Reyes Cup and maybe he just underestimated it.

Filler’s 3-Rail Kick in the Reyes Cup … Was it the Right Choice?

You just showed how dumb you really are..he's a certified instructor and has a Dr. degree in the field..HAHAHA!!

How much more knowledge does he need?? PLEASE TELL US....MORON
Oh, forgive me. A certified instructor knows far more than the consensus #1 player in the WORLD.

One of the 2 of them has played on the biggest stages in the world, under the most pressure you can be under. The other made a video after the fact.

The last of my collection

I used to play with Garten when I was young in Dover, Ohio. I never could afford one of his cues back in the day, and I’ve been looking for one ever since. Any chance you still have one for sale? Never got a chance to connect with him when he was making cues, so now I need to find one. Kind of a quest for me now.
There were some really good players at the velvet rail in the early 90s. A lot of good road players. Used watch Max Eberle play Garten in straight pool. Made everything look so easy.

Not much to do in Dover, Ohio, the rail was my second home through high school. Steve (rip), who owned the place always mentoring me and encouraging me. Didn’t realize at the time how great it was.

Filler’s 3-Rail Kick in the Reyes Cup … Was it the Right Choice?

I understand why you make videos about how to, but a video on whether a #1 in the world player played the right shot seems a bit outside of your wheelhouse. Way too many variables that the viewer cannot know, that Joshua does.
I agree.

I'll take Filler over a pool scientist any day.

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