dr_dave said:

I think a ref's knowledge of, understanding of, and experience with applying the rules is much more important than playing ability. I have seen countless examples of many world-class players being clueless about certain basic rules (like how to judge double hits and split-hit fouls). Lots of examples can be found here, where the players are sometimes choosing shots that any knowledgeable and experienced referee would know are going to be obvious fouls:

examples of pros choosing shots that will be obvious fouls
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Here's one notable recent example:

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Some world-class players being clueless about specific rules, doesn't mean they aren't generally more knowledgeable about what is and what isn't possible on a pool table. Possible fallacious thinking there from the good doctor

I think you maybe too close to the forest on this, being that you're among a very select group that both plays well and has very high-level knowledge. You're nearly one of a kind.

Sure the knowledge is ultimately the most important aspect, but what does a referee map their knowledge on to if they haven't already processed thousands of object ball interactions? If a player loses an important match from a double-hit foul call at some point in their career, they're going to more easily understand the rule once it's explained to them. There's also a reason APA 3's aren't randomly asked to watch close hits during a tournament. We intuitively understand that better players, by necessity, pay closer attention to what's happening on the table. That's part of what makes them better players.

dr_dave said:

Here's one notable recent example:

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There is hope for Marcel.

dr_dave said:

I think he suspected it could have been a foul, but I don't think he was sure it was a foul. If he was sure, I suspect he would have called a foul or asked for a review. Regardless, all of this is the job of the ref, not the player.

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To paraphrase what you said. I think he knew it was a foul and hoped he got away with it. Let's be honest here, the ref just was not in the right position to make a definitive call.

That's why when available you have replay. To be honest, at least from many viewers watching. Regardless of the path of the cue ball, it actually looked like a bad hit visually. Just watching from home my wife and I both yelled out that was a bad hit at the same time.

jbart65 said:

Alexander Hamilton said no such thing. It's not how people talked in the 1790s. Perhaps the 1890s or 1990s ...

Hamilton did think the masses might not be capable of governing wisely, and he wrote or spoke such sentiments in words more suited to his times. But he also supported the Constitution in the end.

Hamilton wasn't alone. Most of the founders had suspicions of popular democracy. Which is why they created a Republic!

Now back to our regularly scheduled foul controversy ...

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From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:


The Masses Are Asses is a quote attributed to Alexander Hamilton


Also of note is this from https://factually.co/fact-checks/language/ass-word-evolution-donkey-to-insult-a69e33 :

The donkey has long carried literary baggage as a symbol of stubbornness or foolishness; by the medieval period likening a person to a donkey had clear insulting force, and by the 12th–13th centuries "ass" was already used derogatorily to mean a stupid or clumsy person

So, people have been talking this way for almost 1,000 years.

I'll take it. PM sent.

For sure, it was a lot of fun. I remember when I'd place something for sale and it would be on page 4 before I blinked.

sjm said:

Alexander Hamilton offered that "the masses are asses."

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Alexander Hamilton said no such thing. It's not how people talked in the 1790s. Perhaps the 1890s or 1990s ...

Hamilton did think the masses might not be capable of governing wisely, and he wrote or spoke such sentiments in words more suited to his times. But he also supported the Constitution in the end.

Hamilton wasn't alone. Most of the founders had suspicions of popular democracy. Which is why they created a Republic!

Now back to our regularly scheduled foul controversy ...

Bragging rights

Nick8400 said:

I don’t know which one is more difficult. But I know I like to gamble at both. Who is ready?!

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Bring your clubs and come on down to Florida!

deep said:

Si Jiahui has a decent record at the Crucible.

I'll try and get some photos from around the city, the Crucible is is literally 5 minutes from where I live.

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i think he's still scarred though. fun player otherwise

sjm said:

As we have ample evidence that the training of referees is inferior on the subject of close hits, we can safely say that many a serious player has far more insight into a subject like this than most referees. While it is not true of most calls that must be made, a serious player likely has far more experience to draw upon in judging situations like this than all but a few referees.

I might go a s low as Fargo 550 here, but I agree with your point in principle that a capable, very experienced player is, on average, more likely to get this call right. In general, a referee will do a much better job on most other types of calls as they are trained to place themselves in the right position to make a call, but the "close hit" scenario is more about knowledge than positioning.

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I think a ref's knowledge of, understanding of, and experience with applying the rules is much more important than playing ability. I have seen many examples of world-class players being clueless about certain basic rules (like how to judge double hits and split-hit fouls). Lots of examples can be found here, where the players are sometimes choosing shots that any knowledgeable and experienced referee would know are going to be obvious fouls:

Here's one notable recent example:

There was a short clip on it in the Super billiards expo post I think, or maybe I saw it somewhere else. Some reviewer was going around and stopped at the Jacoby booth to look at his award winning cue then asked about the new shaft. Brandon took him over to a table and let him shoot some balls with it. He shot about 20 shots and I don't remember him missing. Brandon also showed where the difference was by flexing the shaft sideways back and forth. It seemed to bend fairly easily in the middle. So it looks as though they designed it to flex away from the ball more easily when using english. At least I think I saw it that way.
Edit found it.
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There were plenty of century breaks in the qualifiers and it'll be interesting to see if that level of play continues. I'd like to see Antoni,Stan and Liam go some rounds.

Sheldon said:

Bertrand Russell: “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.”

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Alexander Hamilton offered that "the masses are asses."