Is Mike Sigel the best ever?

Johnnyt said:
I don't buy that there is or was a BEST player ever. It's like flavor of the month. Who is winning the tournaments at the moment is not always the best player in the country much less the world.

As far as Mosconi, he was a great player for sure. But the best in his time...not in my book. He was geting paid to play. If he played top road player for money and beat them, I'd feel differnt. Before TV and the Internet their were guys that very rarely played in tournaments or left their part of the country that could and did beat the top name players when they came to their neck of the woods.

Players like Jay Helfert that have been around the block a few times can tell you about players that most of us never heard of years ago that he would have and probably did put in the box with name champions. Johnnyt
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Toby Sweet was already mentioned. I was there when Denny Searcy showed up in Bend, Oregon in 1976 and offered to play ANY player (including Sigel) for any amount. All the top players were there. There were no takers on Denny's offer. Keith was famous for his open invitation to gamble with anyone at 9-Ball.

After Parica beat everyone except Buddy in Dallas in the mid 80's, he went looking for Sigel and Buddy. He found them but they wouldn't play him. Sorry but it's true. As far as I know, Buddy and Parica never played except in tourneys. Sigel did play him Rotation once. Big mistake!

A very fine Mexican champion Gil Mascareno beat Sigel gambling at 9-Ball once. He was the predecessor to Rafael. Gil died in a Mexico car accident 15 years ago. Speaking of Rafael Martinez he was another world beater for the cash. Better than a lot of the tournament champions. He was studiously avoided by most at 9-Ball or One Pocket.

Only champions like Buddy (in the 80's), and then Francisco and Johnny were willing to match up and gamble with the top gamblers at pool. In fact, they were the top guys along with Parica in the 90's. I don't think either of these guys were too interested in gambling with Jose though. NO ONE WAS! Okay, maybe one guy, Mark Tadd. Mark didn't draw the line anywhere. I think he did play Parica once or twice, and lost. CJ Wiley was another great high stakes gambler. He was betting more than anyone in the late 90's, and winning. He beat Efren more than once for the cheese. BIG cheese too. Try 40K or 50K at a time.

So during the early 90's when Sigel was still playing, he was an underdog gambling with Johnny, Francisco, Parica, Rafael ?, Buddy, CJ and Efren. But even after saying this, if there had been an all around test of pool greatness back then, I would have picked Sigel. That is, if they played all games in some kind of tournament setting, Sigel would have been the favorite.

Man, sometimes I talk too much. :D
 
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Not the real story David BTW is it Dave or David???You have to remember he was trying to keep a dying sport alive only to fail. Those players He hand picked were for exhibitions man. Not when he came up through the ranks. Back then you didn't just pay 250 and you get to play you had to get there. You think when Willie lost his first six tries at the World title he picked his opponents?
Jamison
 
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Mike,Keith&Louie

jay helfert said:
No question Ronnie was the best One Pocket player in the 70's. Sigel was still learning the game then. And Sigel was never the best gambler at any of the games. I doubt he would ever have played Buddy One Pocket for the cash, and definitely not Efren. Mike would gamble but he picked his spots carefully. He wouldn't have gambled with Keith in the 80's on any table! Not for long anyway. :)

I was thinking more in terms of Mike's tournament dominance. No one was ever better when they reached the finals. Do you know he once won ELEVEN final matches in a row. That is, eleven times when he reached the finals he won. Not eleven tourneys in a row.
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Jay,it was in the 80's that Sigel beat Matlock on the bar box,he also gave Louie the 8 ball,which was their standard game. If I had to choose the best player between Keith and Louie playing 9 ball I wouldn't know which way to bet.Don't get me wrong Keith was a great 9 ball player but Sigel was the man.
 
Jamison

Dave or David is fine -

Nobody is questioning Willie's ability or heart. He is one of the greatest ever - however, as stated in this thread, there were others that played all games well - such as Harold Worst - that Mosconi wouldn't touch.

Keith McCready earned his legendary status by stepping up to the plate to play anyone that was willing to get in the box. Buddy Hall was the same way. Willie was infamous for handpicking opponents for "exhibitions" - and he was also under contract by Brunswick to do these exhibitions - which IMO, he hated, but did them anyway.

When history writes itself, Willie will be known as the greatest of his era, but he was strictly a 14.1 player.

Efren, Sigel, Varner, Hall, Worst, they played all games well.

That's the difference.
 
wincardona said:
Jay, I agree with you on everything you said except the part when you said Sigel would of not gambled with keith in the 80's on any table. On the contrary Mike was the best player in the world in the 80's. He shot as straight as keith and played more solidly.Sigels patterns,cue ball controll,and judgement at the table were unequalled.
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On second thought, you may be right my esteemed colleague. Keith would have had trouble with Mike on a big box. But I don't think Mike was too anxious to get in there with him. Keith would have to be the favorite for big cash IMO. Like a Race To Eleven for five grand back then. On a bar table, Mike wouldn't get near Keith.
 
Dave,
I tried calling your new number. I had a story I wanted to tell you. I don't want to write it. My number is 704-624-0647
Jamison
 
wincardona said:
Jay,it was in the 80's that Sigel beat Matlock on the bar box,he also gave Louie the 8 ball,which was their standard game. If I had to choose the best player between Keith and Louie playing 9 ball I wouldn't know which way to bet.Don't get me wrong Keith was a great 9 ball player but Sigel was the man.
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I would pick Sigel over Louie, by a hair. For the cash, it's almost too close to call. Louie was a great shot maker and ran out from everywhere, but he had holes in his game and his psyche. Louie and Keith gambled many times, with Keith having the overall edge.

Even after Sigel beat Matlock, he didn't want to play him again. David asked him to play in Aurora at the Classic Cup and Mike declined.
I wouldn't have wanted to try to make a living beating Dave Matlock on a bar table.
 
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Blackjack said:
Jamison

Dave or David is fine -

Nobody is questioning Willie's ability or heart. He is one of the greatest ever - however, as stated in this thread, there were others that played all games well - such as Harold Worst - that Mosconi wouldn't touch.

Keith McCready earned his legendary status by stepping up to the plate to play anyone that was willing to get in the box. Buddy Hall was the same way. Willie was infamous for handpicking opponents for "exhibitions" - and he was also under contract by Brunswick to do these exhibitions - which IMO, he hated, but did them anyway.

When history writes itself, Willie will be known as the greatest of his era, but he was strictly a 14.1 player.

Efren, Sigel, Varner, Hall, Worst, they played all games well.

That's the difference.
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Ive read that don willis robbed whole towns, i think his name should be added to any list
 
JamisonNeu said:
Dave,
I tried calling your new number. I had a story I wanted to tell you. I don't want to write it. My number is 704-624-0647
Jamison
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I got your call, and I stored you number - I'll be busy until about 5, so my phone will be on silent. I'll call you back later tonight.
 
west vs east

jay helfert said:
I would pick Sigel over Louie, by a hair. For the cash, it's almost too close to call. Louie was a great shot maker and ran out from everywhere, but he had holes in his game and his psyche. Louie and Keith gambled many times, with Keith having the overall edge.

Even after Sigel beat Matlock, he didn't want to play him again. David asked him to play in Aurora at the Classic Cup and Mike declined.
I wouldn't have wanted to try to make a living beating Dave Matlock on a bar table.
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Jay I commend you for your loyalty sticking with west coast players,particularly Keith and Ronnie,but remember one thing as was mentioned in the picture The Cincinnati Kid "as long as Sigels around their second best"
 
shallow holes

jay helfert said:
I would pick Sigel over Louie, by a hair. For the cash, it's almost too close to call. Louie was a great shot maker and ran out from everywhere, but he had holes in his game and his psyche. Louie and Keith gambled many times, with Keith having the overall edge.

Even after Sigel beat Matlock, he didn't want to play him again. David asked him to play in Aurora at the Classic Cup and Mike declined.
I wouldn't have wanted to try to make a living beating Dave Matlock on a bar table.
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Louie had holes in his game? Jay everyone has holes in their game,but the holes in Louies game were very shallow.LOL
 
Guy's,

I wonder how many negative opinions of Mike's level of play are fueled by a dislike of him personally. He is a hard guy to like. But he's earned the reputation, both ways. I still vote for him as the best all round. Remember, he's only 55 and quit at 45 plus or minus a year or two. He's back in Rochester so it will be interesting to hear his opinions on this thread!

Lyn
 
wincardona said:
Louie had holes in his game? Jay everyone has holes in their game,but the holes in Louies game were very shallow.LOL
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You know what, I'm glad I brought you into the discussion. :)

Speaking of great money players, has anyone ever heard of the dreaded "Cardone". Way back in the 70's he scared the living sh-t out of everyone. And he didn't have any holes in his game. He shot holes in other people's game! :D
 
Being a child of the 60's, I have seen many of the greats, including a 75 ball one-handed run by Mosconi. Mosconi had a beautiful elegance as he moved around the table. Crane had that quiet mastery and incredible cue ball control. Lassiter, that quiet, country boy who destroyed you with his southern charm and excellence. Sigel, you either loved or hated, because of his big ego, but you can never say that he didn't have the goods, because he was most certainly gifted. Efren was master of all. Lucky for all of us.
 
cardiac kid said:
Guy's,

I wonder how many negative opinions of Mike's level of play are fueled by a dislike of him personally. He is a hard guy to like. But he's earned the reputation, both ways. I still vote for him as the best all round. Remember, he's only 55 and quit at 45 plus or minus a year or two. He's back in Rochester so it will be interesting to hear his opinions on this thread!

Lyn
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great post.

I think my perspective of Mike's level of play gets fogged up with his ego/attitude. Imagine if he was as easy going as Efren, he would be president.
 
Who's drum ?

jay helfert said:
You know what, I'm glad I brought you into the discussion. :)

Speaking of great money players, has anyone ever heard of the dreaded "Cardone". Way back in the 70's he scared the living sh-t out of everyone. And he didn't have any holes in his game. He shot holes in other people's game! :D
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I appreciate you beating my drum, because I really never do.There was a period for about 2 years that I played as good as anyone and it's nice to hear someone like yourself acknowledge that. But Sigels still the man.
 
wincardona said:
I appreciate you beating my drum, because I really never do.There was a period for about 2 years that I played as good as anyone and it's nice to hear someone like yourself acknowledge that. But Sigels still the man.
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Hi Mr Incardona, I am trying to learn to play 1 pocket and I was wondering if you have made any videos on the subject.thanks
 
wincardona said:
I appreciate you beating my drum, because I really never do.There was a period for about 2 years that I played as good as anyone and it's nice to hear someone like yourself acknowledge that. But Sigels still the man.
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Look Billy, if we are talking sheer won-loss history, YOU'RE THE MAN! I want to know one thing. Did you book one loser from 1975 to 1995? If you did, I didn't hear about it. I KNOW you had a better record than the Globetrotters, and they only lost once every few years.
 
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This is a gret thread. I wish a few more pros and road players would jump in. I think at the end Mike will be up there in the top five, but so will about 50 more players. Johnnyt
 
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