I say yes. I would have loved to have seen Sigel in his prime play Mosconi in his prime at staight pool. I'm picking Sigel to win that match.
Is Mike Sigel the best ever?
- Thread starter wrldpro
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I don't buy that there is or was a BEST player ever. It's like flavor of the month. Who is winning the tournaments at the moment is not always the best player in the country much less the world.
As far as Mosconi, he was a great player for sure. But the best in his time...not in my book. He was geting paid to play. If he played top road player for money and beat them, I'd feel differnt. Before TV and the Internet their were guys that very rarely played in tournaments or left their part of the country that could and did beat the top name players when they came to their neck of the woods.
Players like Jay Helfert that have been around the block a few times can tell you about players that most of us never heard of years ago that he would have and probably did put in the box with name champions. Johnnyt
As far as Mosconi, he was a great player for sure. But the best in his time...not in my book. He was geting paid to play. If he played top road player for money and beat them, I'd feel differnt. Before TV and the Internet their were guys that very rarely played in tournaments or left their part of the country that could and did beat the top name players when they came to their neck of the woods.
Players like Jay Helfert that have been around the block a few times can tell you about players that most of us never heard of years ago that he would have and probably did put in the box with name champions. Johnnyt
I think Mikes opinion is biased because he was around Crane and studied under him I believe.Crane probably is the smartest player and most articulate,if Mosconi was not around then Crane would be talked about as the best instead of being the bridesmaid.The Hustler and The Champ should have been The Champ and The Bridesmaid, would have liked to hear about Cranes life....I believe his wife is still alive.Blackjack said:The "best ever" is a crown that currently sits atop the head of Efren Reyes, and if you talk to Mike on the subject he will disagree and tell you that the best ever was Irving Crane.
Mike is definitely one of the best in history. Nobody has won as many Professional Titles as Mike. Mike is still threat today in any discipline, and I believe we will see that in his head to head 14.1 matchup with John Schmidt.
Our game has so many variables. It is hard to pick that one guy that is able to do it all, and I am glad in my lifetime I got to see Efren from the beginning. I remember when he first came over here playing with that $5 cue and kicking everyone's ass - the only person smiling was Jose Parica.
So to answer this question properly, go to the man himself - and Mike has told me that Irving Crane was the best (according to him).
According to me, Rochester has put out quite a few monster players - must be something in the water - Pat Howey went up there and ran 173 balls back in April. Mike was just up there and ran 224. Perhaps if we held the World Championships in Rochester we'd see some monster high runs. Just a thought.
Johnnyt said:
I agree with this assessment.
Years ago, George Fels wrote a beautiful piece entitled, "An Audience of One" - which detailed the story of Eddie Robin's first 100 ball run in practice - which was performed in front of one spectator - the great Willie Mosconi - who was in town to give an exhibition in that room.
Mosconi would hand select his opponents.
Eddie made a break shot where the cue ball came off the rail and spit up about a foot in the air, then landed right in the center of the 14 balls - the stack exploded beautifully. Eddie nervously looked over at Mosconi and went back to clearing the table. Mosconi turned to the room owner and said, "I ain't playin' him."
lol
George, if you read this, you have to print that one out so everyone can enjoy it - it is my favorite Tips and Shafts article - ever - and you are a much better story teller than I am.
Mosconi was a pisser,I heard stories also of him yelling at his opponent if the guy beat him or tried to,he would tell them that the fans were there to see him and watch him shoot,temper temper!Blackjack said:
I believe top 3 are Mike, Earl, and Efren, with Mike and Efren playing at maybe a slightly higher level than Efren in their prime, while Efren has maintained his standard of excellence over a longer time frame
Efren winning 2 out of 3 IPT tourneys at his age was possibly his crowning achievement
Buddy, Parica, and Ronnie just don't have the world titles and can't be considered imo , particularly given the fact that most of the top players in their day did in fact compete in the big world championships, unlike decades ago when many of the better road players didn't
going back further than that era and it's apples and oranges
Efren winning 2 out of 3 IPT tourneys at his age was possibly his crowning achievement
Buddy, Parica, and Ronnie just don't have the world titles and can't be considered imo , particularly given the fact that most of the top players in their day did in fact compete in the big world championships, unlike decades ago when many of the better road players didn't
going back further than that era and it's apples and oranges
I'm also gonna say Wu Chia Ching is the guy we may be talking about in a few years
NODBODY has accomplised what he has at his age, although I've noticed a decline in his play since losing the weight
NODBODY has accomplised what he has at his age, although I've noticed a decline in his play since losing the weight
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Could you imagine a match with Mosconi's temper and controlling personality against the ego of Mike Sigel? In their prime, I think that would have been a monster rivalry. We're talking Ali/Frazier stuff.
Though I think it is impossible to compare across eras, if I was forced to pick a best overall of all time, it would be Efren.
Reyes By A Nose
I have had the privlidge to watch and play the best players in the last 45 years. Lassiter,Crane,Kelly,Sigel,Hall,Reyes,Hopkins,,Varner,Parica,Strickland,Archer, but never played or watched Worst play. I have often heard that Worst was the best ever and he may have been ,but I can only grade the players that i've played or watched through the years.
Neither Lassiter nor Crane played one pocket,but they excelled in all the other games. Crane played great 9 ball but he couldn't break the balls,that in addition to not playing one pocket takes him out of the running.Plus I never saw either of them play banks.Kelly played all games at the highest level,definetly a contender.
Sigel and Hall ruled in the 80's. That duo was very special ,bringing us the best 9 ball battles ever,but Sigel played all games at the highest level..Varner made his presence felt in the late 80'sthrough the 90's and he was a terror,plus he played all games and played them great.Reyes joined these players also in the late 80's,and he has proven that he plays all games great,all games,Hopkins played close to those four but was not quite at their level. It's very hard to include Strickland with these players because he only played 9 ball,but he could be the best 9 ball player in the lot,could be.Parica also only played 9 ball,but did learn one pocket later but I can't put him in the running of the best ever. Then came Archer,he has proven he can play 9 ball with the best and a little straight pool to,but falls behind in all other games.
Here are my top 5 best players in the last 45 years
#1--Reyes
#2--Sigel
#3--Kelly
#4--Varner
#5--Hall
I have had the privlidge to watch and play the best players in the last 45 years. Lassiter,Crane,Kelly,Sigel,Hall,Reyes,Hopkins,,Varner,Parica,Strickland,Archer, but never played or watched Worst play. I have often heard that Worst was the best ever and he may have been ,but I can only grade the players that i've played or watched through the years.
Neither Lassiter nor Crane played one pocket,but they excelled in all the other games. Crane played great 9 ball but he couldn't break the balls,that in addition to not playing one pocket takes him out of the running.Plus I never saw either of them play banks.Kelly played all games at the highest level,definetly a contender.
Sigel and Hall ruled in the 80's. That duo was very special ,bringing us the best 9 ball battles ever,but Sigel played all games at the highest level..Varner made his presence felt in the late 80'sthrough the 90's and he was a terror,plus he played all games and played them great.Reyes joined these players also in the late 80's,and he has proven that he plays all games great,all games,Hopkins played close to those four but was not quite at their level. It's very hard to include Strickland with these players because he only played 9 ball,but he could be the best 9 ball player in the lot,could be.Parica also only played 9 ball,but did learn one pocket later but I can't put him in the running of the best ever. Then came Archer,he has proven he can play 9 ball with the best and a little straight pool to,but falls behind in all other games.
Here are my top 5 best players in the last 45 years
#1--Reyes
#2--Sigel
#3--Kelly
#4--Varner
#5--Hall
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No -next questionwatchez said:
wincardona said:
Nick Varner winning 11 of 22 pro events in 1989 is probably the most amazing thing I have ever seen.
His win at the World Series Championship in Manila in 1990 is legendary.
Varner has won world championships is 14.1, 9 ball, 8 ball, and one pocket.
Definitely, one of the best ever - and above all, a class act all the way!
one thing about mike i've noticed is when he's on, you fancy him to not miss more than any other player. he just looks like he's gonna make every ball. his stroke was so reliable.
hemicudas said:
No question Ronnie was the best One Pocket player in the 70's. Sigel was still learning the game then. And Sigel was never the best gambler at any of the games. I doubt he would ever have played Buddy One Pocket for the cash, and definitely not Efren. Mike would gamble but he picked his spots carefully. He wouldn't have gambled with Keith in the 80's on any table! Not for long anyway.
I was thinking more in terms of Mike's tournament dominance. No one was ever better when they reached the finals. Do you know he once won ELEVEN final matches in a row. That is, eleven times when he reached the finals he won. Not eleven tourneys in a row.
jay helfert said:No question Ronnie was the best One Pocket player in the 70's. Sigel was still learning the game then. And Sigel was never the best gambler at any of the games. I doubt he would ever have played Buddy One Pocket for the cash, and definitely not Efren. Mike would gamble but he picked his spots carefully. He wouldn't have gambled with Keith in the 80's on any table! Not for long anyway.
I was thinking more in terms of Mike's tournament dominance. No one was ever better when they reached the finals. Do you know he once won ELEVEN final matches in a row. That is, eleven times when he reached the finals he won. Not eleven tourneys in a row.
I remember when Efren beat Sigel at the McDermott Masters in Detroit back in 1988. Mike was so unstoppable in the finals, that most people thought he would walk all over Efren - but not that day. I believe that was Efren's first major title that he won over here - a small field of only 47 players (including Jean Balukas) - but I believe that was the tournament where the seeds of Efren's dominance were planted.
Johnnyt said:
That is nuts, Mosconi bested everyone. Before he beat everyone for 50 yrs in a row. He beat them all gambling. No one played him for cash are you crazy the guy ran 400 balls in a row five times a day. People used to travel across the Atlantic on ships to just to quit when they found out he was playing in the tourney. What's the point they would say as they left for home. No piss ant little road hustler could afford to play him anyway.
The very first tournament ever played on nine foot equipment he set the world record for the high run, then in the next match he beat his own record and then again in his next match, he beat it again. No one alive then or now had a chance. If you think they did your nut's. Ask Thorsten if he ever ran 400 on someone and then played a safe (tells me this was his normal) just to get up and run another 400. lol Not a chance and today's tables, sticks, balls, cloth, chalk, and tips are all betterwhich means easier.
He played 9ball for 1000 dollars a game during the great depression. Today thats like 25,000 a game. (he said 9 ball would be the downfall of modern pool.) I know the old man in your pool hall has told you he knew Willie and he watched Willie and blah blah blah thing is he is full of it. He watched in his mommies house on a black and white tv then he went to the local pool hall and the same old man that is in every pool hall told him some bs and now he told you the bs.
I had the same sponsor/ manager as Willie Mosconi back when I played pro pool. He was there and managed Willie Mosconi for 27yrs that is the truth.
Today he helps decide who gets in the hall of fame. From his own mouth he said Willie Mosconi had no equal. He said "He was the greatest he ever saw" and this was the same week he judged Mike Sigel and Efren Reyes in the IPT Finals.
You sound like you might have been there in the 1933 when he was allready 20 yrs old and 14 yrs in on his pro pool career. I think you might have been swindled into thinking he ducked players. No he would play anyone when he was in his 20's, they just wouldn't play him. Just like vultures, pool hustlers always wait until their prey is at its weakest to get jumpy.
Jamison
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Jay, I agree with you on everything you said except the part when you said Sigel would of not gambled with keith in the 80's on any table. On the contrary Mike was the best player in the world in the 80's. He shot as straight as keith and played more solidly.Sigels patterns,cue ball controll,and judgement at the table were unequalled.jay helfert said:No question Ronnie was the best One Pocket player in the 70's. Sigel was still learning the game then. And Sigel was never the best gambler at any of the games. I doubt he would ever have played Buddy One Pocket for the cash, and definitely not Efren. Mike would gamble but he picked his spots carefully. He wouldn't have gambled with Keith in the 80's on any table! Not for long anyway.
I was thinking more in terms of Mike's tournament dominance. No one was ever better when they reached the finals. Do you know he once won ELEVEN final matches in a row. That is, eleven times when he reached the finals he won. Not eleven tourneys in a row.
JamisonNeu said:
Jamison,
Willie handpicking opponent's is not something that was kept secret. I believe that if he would have taken on all comers opinions would be different.
Mosconi was trapped into being a pool player - played more out of necessity than passion - I don't think he loved the game as much as many people think he did, however he was cursed as being the best. Kind of sad when you think about it. If Willie had his choice, he would have been something else besides a pool player.
(JMO)