Is Mike Sigel the best ever?

[tpdtom]

Hello, Billy again! I had to respond to your post.

Mike was a great 4 1/2 by 9 player. Back then, I believe in my heart if I could have broken the balls like Earl and Bustamante, Mike Sigel could have got the 8 and 9, but seeing as so I didn't have a good break, the game was close. It was close with even a bad break.

When you play people racing to 11 and go oh for 9 on the break and the score is 10-10 or 10-9, what's that tell you? That happened to me all the time.

But now if we go to the bar tables, 3 1/2 by 7, 4 by 8 especially, where I could break the balls, Sigel had no chance to beat me. It wouldn't have even been a contest. He tried it once, after he ducked me for years, with Larry Hubbart where I gave Mike Sigel the last 2. We were playing 7 ahead sets for 3 grand a set, I believe. I think Mike had 5 games at one time. The 2 sets were over within 2 hours. Mike hit the deck. Then Larry Hubbart got up there. I gave Larry the 8 and 9, a session for 6 dimes, and that session took about an hour, maybe hour and a half. This happened at Nutty Neros.

Then Larry Hubbart proceeded to go to Oklahoma City or Punkett City and played even with David Matlock on a bar table and happened to beat David. So where would that put me? Does everybody remember that?

Louie Roberts was a great player, and I loved Louie, but I had to give Louie the call 8 every time we played. As far as shotmaking, pound for pound, Louie had to be one of the best shotmakers of all times, and I believe Louie was a better shotmaker than Sigel. Sigel knew more pool, but he couldn't come with that shot for that money like Louie.

And to be perfectly honest, Billy, when Sigel, Louie, and I were playing, I'd take me over both of them coming with that shot for that big dough, any time, any day. I just thought I would put my 2 cents in, being that my name was brought up.

As far as knowledge of playing pool, Mike Sigel wins that one, but as far as the shot-making and gambling and being able to make that shot for the big dough, I'm not going to take a back seat to Sigel being the Cinncinati Kid second best. Sorry. In fact, I believe Louie and I were both better than Mike Sigel in that department.

I saw you at "The Rack" in Oak Park, Mi Keith. I saw you play for big bucks on both a bar box and 1 Hole on a 4 1/2 X 9. I always tell everyone that you were the best Bar Box player I ever saw, especially with the big cue ball, bar none, and I saw a lot of players. I liked Jimmy Reid's and Buddy's games too for the cash but you were a tremendous all around player, no doubt.

C'mon back and surprise a few people ...Tom

 

[Bob Jewett]

... Please spend a couple of minutes and list your opinion on the best ever players.

You stated the question as "best ever" but nearly everyone is responding to "best living." Did you really mean "best ever?"

In case you did, then Frank Ives, Maurice Vignaux, Walter Lindrum, Raymond Ceulemans, John Roberts, and certainly Alfredo de Oro need to be included in the discussion, along with a bunch of other players. The problem with all of these "best ever" discussions is that they depend on very short memories.

As for straight pool, you seem to have forgotten three living players who have run over 400 on 9-foot tables, including one who had a 491.

 

[jay helfert]

Hello, Billy again! I had to respond to your post.

Mike was a great 4 1/2 by 9 player. Back then, I believe in my heart if I could have broken the balls like Earl and Bustamante, Mike Sigel could have got the 8 and 9, but seeing as so I didn't have a good break, the game was close. It was close with even a bad break.

When you play people racing to 11 and go oh for 9 on the break and the score is 10-10 or 10-9, what's that tell you? That happened to me all the time.

But now if we go to the bar tables, 3 1/2 by 7, 4 by 8 especially, where I could break the balls, Sigel had no chance to beat me. It wouldn't have even been a contest. He tried it once, after he ducked me for years, with Larry Hubbart where I gave Mike Sigel the last 2. We were playing 7 ahead sets for 3 grand a set, I believe. I think Mike had 5 games at one time. The 2 sets were over within 2 hours. Mike hit the deck. Then Larry Hubbart got up there. I gave Larry the 8 and 9, a session for 6 dimes, and that session took about an hour, maybe hour and a half. This happened at Nutty Neros.

Then Larry Hubbart proceeded to go to Oklahoma City or Punkett City and played even with David Matlock on a bar table and happened to beat David. So where would that put me? Does everybody remember that?

Louie Roberts was a great player, and I loved Louie, but I had to give Louie the call 8 every time we played. As far as shotmaking, pound for pound, Louie had to be one of the best shotmakers of all times, and I believe Louie was a better shotmaker than Sigel. Sigel knew more pool, but he couldn't come with that shot for that money like Louie.

And to be perfectly honest, Billy, when Sigel, Louie, and I were playing, I'd take me over both of them coming with that shot for that big dough, any time, any day. I just thought I would put my 2 cents in, being that my name was brought up.

As far as knowledge of playing pool, Mike Sigel wins that one, but as far as the shot-making and gambling and being able to make that shot for the big dough, I'm not going to take a back seat to Sigel being the Cinncinati Kid second best. Sorry. In fact, I believe Louie and I were both better than Mike Sigel in that department.

Thanks Keith for confirming what I already thought. For the money, I know no one wanted a piece of you for a long, long time. I was with you several times when the whole field turned you down. And Ronnie was The Man in One Hole. Everyone asked him for weight, and I mean everyone!

When you were a kid (like 18-22), the only guys who I can think of that would mess with you would have been Richie, Denny, Cole and Billy Johnson. And maybe Matlock and Weldon on a bar table. Tell me who I'm leaving out. I know that guys like Marino, Mataya, Reid and Lisciotti could play you but I don't think they wanted to.

 

[Keith McCready]

I saw you at "The Rack" in Oak Park, Mi Keith. I saw you play for big bucks on both a bar box and 1 Hole on a 4 1/2 X 9. I always tell everyone that you were the best Bar Box player I ever saw, especially with the big cue ball, bar none, and I saw a lot of players. I liked Jimmy Reid's and Buddy's games too for the cash but you were a tremendous all around player, no doubt.

C'mon back and surprise a few people ...Tom

Don't worry, I'll be back!

When I was playing at Oak Park, it wasn't the easiest pool room to play in, and I wasn't playing my A game there. I was actually playing a lot better before I got there, but I did play some decent pool there.

That was a nice pool room, wasn't it? I will never forget those days. Old Red Fox, Jonsey, Al Sherman, Bulldog Jerry, I remember those guys like it was yesteday. Did you know Jerry just died? I think he was 82 or thereabouts.

I'll say one thing about the Rack. They would put a bet under your ass, and I believe as far as pressure, there has never, ever been a pool room that had as much pressure as that pool room, if you know what I mean!

 

[JoeyInCali]

Keith, did you play Louie and Cornbred at Bob's place ?
thnx

 

[Keith McCready]

Thanks Keith for confirming what I already thought. For the money, I know no one wanted a piece of you for a long, long time. I was with you several times when the whole field turned you down. And Ronnie was The Man in One Hole. Everyone asked him for weight, and I mean everyone!

When you were a kid (like 18-22), the only guys who I can think of that would mess with you would have been Richie, Denny, Cole and Billy Johnson. And maybe Matlock and Weldon on a bar table. Tell me who I'm leaving out. I know that guys like Marino, Mataya, Reid and Lisciotti could play you but I don't think they wanted to.

Very true, Jay. Everybody did ask Ronnie Allen for weight. As far as playing one-pocket, Ronnie Allen was the greatest one-pocket player that I ever seen in his prime. He moved the balls better than anybody, including Efren, but Efren progressed and is now on a different planet. LOL

Ronnie had to be the funniest guy to watch play pool besides Minnesota Fats carrying on with his conversation. When you put those two guys in the same room in rare form, it was a sight to see, wasn't it, Jay?

You got it about right on Wade Crane, Cole Dixon, and Richie Florience, but as time went on, you know what happened then. I will have to say this. Wade Crane would play anybody at any time back then. He had that big break, best break in the world. I wish I would have had Wade's break in my prime. It would have been a pool player's worst nightmare.

Thinking about guys playing one another, you know what's funny, I guarantee you Mike Sigel would have had a hard time with the Mexican champions in California, and I'm talking about a real hard time. In case he would have muscled up and played all the Mexicans like Morro Paez, Ernesto Dominguez, Hellijo, Joe Salazar, Cannello, he just might have come up a little short in those spots, especially on the bar rags.

To tell you the truth, Jay, I don't recall many Easterners coming to the West Coast to gamble back then, aside from Larry Liscioitti and Eddie Burton. There was Boston Shorty and Allen Hopkins, but they sort of made their way on the East Coast. Maybe you can refresh my memory on who tried to come out to the West Coast, to California in particular, and left town with the money. I don't recall too many of them that did. Maybe that's why they stayed on the East Coast, Jay.

 

[roosterman]

Jay,it was in the 80's that Sigel beat Matlock on the bar box,he also gave Louie the 8 ball,which was their standard game. If I had to choose the best player between Keith and Louie playing 9 ball I wouldn't know which way to bet.Don't get me wrong Keith was a great 9 ball player but Sigel was the man.

Sigel never played Matlock on a bar table,Matlock tried to get him to play but he wouldn't.Sigel did beat Fargo playing banks,Fargo got mad at Sigel because he acted like he didn't know the rules.

 

[Keith McCready]

Keith, did you play Louie and Cornbred at Bob's place ?
thnx

I did play Louie at Bob's Billiards and Hard Times at Newport Beach.

Me and Cornbread played in Detroit at the Rack. We only played once for the dough. I give him the 8 and 9, and we played only one race. I won it. But Cornbread wasn't really noted for his 9-ball game. His best game was playing one-pocket on a 5 by 10 and a 4 1/2 by 9, the 5 by 10 especially at the Rack. He played some great one-pocket on that table. He come with shots that I was totally amazed with, especially as hard as that table was to play on and as tight as it was.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Thnx Keith.

 

[Fast Lenny]

I did play Louie at Bob's Billiards and Hard Times at Newport Beach.

Me and Cornbread played in Detroit at the Rack. We only played once for the dough. I give him the 8 and 9, and we played only one race. I won it. But Cornbread wasn't really noted for his 9-ball game. His best game was playing one-pocket on a 5 by 10 and a 4 1/2 by 9, the 5 by 10 especially at the Rack. He played some great one-pocket on that table. He come with shots that I was totally amazed with, especially as hard as that table was to play on and as tight as it was.

Hey Keith is there anyone you would like to matchup with now perhaps on The Action Report for all of us fans to see?,would love to see you in action taking the cash.

 

[DrawtheRock]

Gave him the last 2

Jay, I agree with you on everything you said except the part when you said Sigel would of not gambled with keith in the 80's on any table. On the contrary Mike was the best player in the world in the 80's. He shot as straight as keith and played more solidly.Sigels patterns,cue ball controll,and judgement at the table were unequalled.

Thanks Billy for all of the insight, it is much different when coming from one of the top players of the time and getting your perspective. After all, you would have to be sizing them up in order to match up with them..which is definitely different than how we are looking at these guys.

The only one I didnt really agree with you on was with Keith. On the bar box with that big ball he was a crusher. And he might chime in, and confirm that he gave mike the last 2 on a bar box and scorched him. I think he played Hubbard right after that match and spotted and scorched him as well.

You are definitely a gambler, and to me you see the best out of the players when they play long sessions for the cheese. In 9 ball, playing 15 ahead for a ton of money who do you like in 9 ball in their prime?

 

[DrawtheRock]

other games

Agreed! Mike is certainly in the top ten all time, but number one I'm not so sure. I will say this, Mike could play ALL games, 9-Ball, One Pocket, 14.1 and Banks. In his prime, he was the best all around player, with Mizerak and Buddy close behind. Buddy didn't play 14.1 and Miz didn't play Banks. Not that they couldn't play these games, they just didn't. Sigel played all games at the highest level.

Talking pure pool ability, Parica and Efren may have been more talented. Getting down in the trenches and playing for serious cash, Parica was the best ever IMO. Believe me, the great Sigel ducked him more than once. At One Pocket only Efren could be considered a favorite over Mike. At 9-Ball in tournaments, Earl was his equal and may have had more firepower. At 14.1 Sigel reigned supreme for years.

I still think Harold Worst was the best pool player I ever saw, and Parica second. I'm talking about a combination of ability, heart and desire. Worst and Parica would never give up. Of course, Sigel wouldn't either. The more I think about it, the more I like Sigel overall. He played ALL games great, and did know how to win. He just couldn't beat Parica or Buddy for the cheese. I know that and so does he.

Jay, lets also remember that Efren played rotation very well and could even play some 3 cushion billiards

 

[Terry Ardeno]

I don't recall many Easterners coming to the West Coast to gamble back then, aside from Larry Liscioitti and Eddie Burton. There was Boston Shorty and Allen Hopkins, but they sort of made their way on the East Coast. Maybe you can refresh my memory on who tried to come out to the West Coast, to California in particular, and left town with the money. I don't recall too many of them that did. Maybe that's why they stayed on the East Coast, Jay.

Keith,
I hope you know how much we like hearing these type stories from the likes of you, Billy, Grady, SanJose Dick, John Schmidt, Blackjack, Jay, etc and other pros who still post here. Great stuff.

You mentioned the "Oil Can". I liked Larry a lot. I always thought Lisciotti was a way better gambler than tournament player, although he won the 1976 World 14.1 Championship. Did you ever cross paths with him? If so, can you share as many details as possible? I would have loved to hear you two chirping at one another! Lisciotti was under-rated in the woofing department. I'm surprised more people don't mention him when they name the world class woofers, such as yourself, Scotty T, etc.

Also, did you ever match up with Ed Kelly or Nick Varner? Anything you care to share is much appreciated.
Thanks.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

You stated the question as "best ever" but nearly everyone is responding to "best living." Did you really mean "best ever?"

In case you did, then Frank Ives, Maurice Vignaux, Walter Lindrum, Raymond Ceulemans, John Roberts, and certainly Alfredo de Oro need to be included in the discussion, along with a bunch of other players. The problem with all of these "best ever" discussions is that they depend on very short memories.

As for straight pool, you seem to have forgotten three living players who have run over 400 on 9-foot tables, including one who had a 491.

Schmidt
Hopkins
Engert
?

 

[Terry Ardeno]

Schmidt
Hopkins
Engert
?

Spider,
Right you are. But, besides those 3 you mentioned, there are three more living players who have runs of 400+....
Earl has run 406, although, much as I love him, he's not really a 14.1 player.
Dallas West has a high run of 420.
Thorsten Hohman has a high run of 404.

 

[blud]

buddy

Agreed! Mike is certainly in the top ten all time, but number one I'm not so sure. I will say this, Mike could play ALL games, 9-Ball, One Pocket, 14.1 and Banks. In his prime, he was the best all around player, with Mizerak and Buddy close behind. Buddy didn't play 14.1 and Miz didn't play Banks. Not that they couldn't play these games, they just didn't. Sigel played all games at the highest level.

Talking pure pool ability, Parica and Efren may have been more talented. Getting down in the trenches and playing for serious cash, Parica was the best ever IMO. Believe me, the great Sigel ducked him more than once. At One Pocket only Efren could be considered a favorite over Mike. At 9-Ball in tournaments, Earl was his equal and may have had more firepower. At 14.1 Sigel reigned supreme for years.

I still think Harold Worst was the best pool player I ever saw, and Parica second. I'm talking about a combination of ability, heart and desire. Worst and Parica would never give up. Of course, Sigel wouldn't either. The more I think about it, the more I like Sigel overall. He played ALL games great, and did know how to win. He just couldn't beat Parica or Buddy for the cheese. I know that and so does he.

Hi Jay, There are a lot of guys who could dab-it, Buddy was the ONLY ONE, who offered ALL PLAYERS the 7 and busted all of them while he lived in Shreport, La. No one, for 3 plus years took the cash from Buddy. The best all around player, in my opinion, was Efferin, heart, knows all games, banks all of it, but Mike, he was a threat to all comers, can play still to this day, but were all a little older now, and we see so much talent today, with these younger guys, who knows who would be on top if they all played each other in there prime..Just don't get to sweat the really high steaks games, as you and me have seen over the years..Lots of memories, not much in the way of flash-backs, those days are gone...As you know buddy played with my cues for 12 plus years, and is my hero, and best friend, will be forever.....
blud

 

[p1noy]

phew....

Anyways, I have asked Parica a few times about him playing Efren & he gets very agitated & doesn't hesitate to tell you that he beat Efren everywhere all over the Phillipines.

I still think that Efren is the best all around player ever. Guess if Sigel had played more years, I would have seen more of it and might have a different opinion but he gave up too soon.

Can anybody shed some light on why Mike S quit pool early? I don't buy the "getting bored at pool" excuse... Who the heck gets bored playing pool at that level, especially with the new wave of players coming out and posting new challenges? Sigel may have played better than anybody during his prime/time, but seems like he wasn't up for the challenge when the new guys stepped in the ring..JMO

 

[PetToilet]

i remember hearing something about good players going all the way out to tournaments and getting knocked out and not getting anything as to why mike took off?

 

[jay helfert]

Very true, Jay. Everybody did ask Ronnie Allen for weight. As far as playing one-pocket, Ronnie Allen was the greatest one-pocket player that I ever seen in his prime. He moved the balls better than anybody, including Efren, but Efren progressed and is now on a different planet. LOL

Ronnie had to be the funniest guy to watch play pool besides Minnesota Fats carrying on with his conversation. When you put those two guys in the same room in rare form, it was a sight to see, wasn't it, Jay?

You got it about right on Wade Crane, Cole Dixon, and Richie Florience, but as time went on, you know what happened then. I will have to say this. Wade Crane would play anybody at any time back then. He had that big break, best break in the world. I wish I would have had Wade's break in my prime. It would have been a pool player's worst nightmare.

Thinking about guys playing one another, you know what's funny, I guarantee you Mike Sigel would have had a hard time with the Mexican champions in California, and I'm talking about a real hard time. In case he would have muscled up and played all the Mexicans like Morro Paez, Ernesto Dominguez, Hellijo, Joe Salazar, Cannello, he just might have come up a little short in those spots, especially on the bar rags.

To tell you the truth, Jay, I don't recall many Easterners coming to the West Coast to gamble back then, aside from Larry Liscioitti and Eddie Burton. There was Boston Shorty and Allen Hopkins, but they sort of made their way on the East Coast. Maybe you can refresh my memory on who tried to come out to the West Coast, to California in particular, and left town with the money. I don't recall too many of them that did. Maybe that's why they stayed on the East Coast, Jay.

Jimmy Marino came out here, but mostly stayed on the beach getting stoned. When he got short on money, he straightened up and came into the poolrooms and busted someone. Lisciotti made a real road trip up and down the coast in the early 70's playing everyone. I think only Cole beat him.

By the way, Helijo (Gil Mascareno) did beat Sigel, on a big table too. He was a good one, wasn't he? I'm glad you remembered him. He was a gunslinger, just like Rafael.

 

[bud green]

I'd be curious to know what years Buddy played with a Blud.

Sigel had a whole article and cover picture (Billiards Digest?) called "Give me a reason" or something like that where he explained the money just wasn't enough reason to travel around anymore. He spent more time making cues than playing.