Best 14:1 Player Ever-John Schmidt or Willie Mosconi?

[SK Custom Cues]

I really dislike the different eras (in any competition) comparisons, so I'm gonna throw a monkey wrench in it all. Mosconi vs. Ben Hogan or Byron Nelson, and John Schmidt vs. Tiger ... which is the closer matchup?

BTW, John I was in the AZB room for you and Corey's tries at the 1P challenge, and from what I saw you were both really good guys with INCREDIBLE games - I would fair much better against you two on the links

Don't sweat the "not in the same league" stuff...one generation said Nicklaus wouldn't hold a candle to Bobby Jones, and Nicklaus' generation thinks he woulda won more if he had the golfball and club technologies that Tiger is enjoying etc. Numbers are just numbers (many things affect records in different eras), great players in their own times are GREAT players PERIOD

This is close to what I was gonna say. Look at Tiger today. He is probably known as a super hero golfer with all the titles and awards. I can guarantee you that Ben Hogan, or even Jack Nicklaus could stick em close and roll em in just as good if not better than Tiger.

When talking about who is the best in reference to generations is not going to be accurate when someone of the 'modern' era wasn't part of the 'older' era.

Someone like Jay is going to give an accurate comparison because he was there, and still his here today. He saw Ronnie Allen and Efren. He also saw Mosconi and Schmidt. Anyone else who fits in this category is fit to give an opinion on this subject. My guess is, you would have to be 50+??

Don't take that the wrong way fellas.

My overall opinion in all of this, is why can't we appreciate all of the good players of the past and not try and say this guy is the best, or this guy is better than that guy. We are always trying to be 'Consumers Report' for everything because we are so particular and like everything our way.

I would like to see everyone in this post congratulate Mosconi (including John) and any other respectable player of the past. I would also like to see the Mosconi fans give John the respect that he deserves and move on recognizing that John Schmidt's, Danny Harriman's or any other moder player's career is far from over. Who knows what we'll see in pool over the next 20 years? Maybe we'll see a run of 1000? Maybe there will be a player who makes the cue ball explode on the break? Maybe there will be a player who just NEVER MISSES?

 

[john schmidt]

hi

No, John, I'm not kidding. I was there and witnessed it.

thats cool.

my buddy boo weekley was doing a golf clinic.

someone in the crowd heckled him so he said watch this ,and made a hole in one on his next shot on demand.then he said if you think that was luck he made another for good measure.


.running 11 racks on demand would be about as tough but hey you said you saw it so i guess ill go with it.

think about how silly what you said sounds.


if willie ever ran 11 in his life he would be fortunate.

but to do it on demand to shut up a heckler is ridiculous and shows how people like to remember things.



by the way someone asked me the other day if my high run was 786.


they said someone told them it was my high run and that they watched the last 400 balls of it. you see what i mean.

by the way boo didnt really make the hole in one i made that up. i wouldnt want you to think that really happened .

 

[metallicane]

As I said, it is exactly the same as mentioning John's name next to Willie Mosconi at this point in John's career.

John has one major win, a US Open, it matches with Weir's Masters win. Weir has 7 other PGA events which are all huge wins with many top pro's. Those wins would be akin to Reno open wins and 1-pocket wins at the DCC.

John has never been close to the 3rd ranked pool player in the world, so I gave him a boost there in fact.

Mike Weir has some course records from PGA tournaments, which are akin to high runs in straight pool, only one could argue that Weir's are done in competition and not practice so hold more weight.

John is to Willie Mosconi as Weir is to Nicklaus, atm that comparison is very very close to identical in accomplishments and relative skill levels. And that is not a cut, Weir is a firm fixture on the PGA tour and a well respected champion level player, despite your attempts to argue he is some shlep. Anyone who knows golf knows how far off you are on that call.

Difference is Mike Weir is a nice guy and respects the players of the past while John feels the need to degrade as often as he can.

I had nothing but respect for John until I saw some of his posts. I think he is a great player, hell I almost bought that cue of his last year to help support him at the SBE. It sucks to have some ahole posters knock your game. I wouldn't dignify them with a response.

As for Sigel versus Mosconi, I would say it is a toss up.

 

[14oneman]

thats cool.

my buddy boo weekley was doing a golf clinic.

someone in the crowd heckled him so he said watch this ,and made a hole in one on his next shot on demand.then he said if you think that was luck he made another for good measure.


.running 11 racks on demand would be about as tough but hey you said you saw it so i guess ill go with it.

think about how silly what you said sounds.


if willie ever ran 11 in his life he would be fortunate.

but to do it on demand to shut up a heckler is ridiculous and shows how people like to remember things.



by the way someone asked me the other day if my high run was 786.


they said someone told them it was my high run and that they watched the last 400 balls of it. you see what i mean.

by the way boo didnt really make the hole in one i made that up. i wouldnt want you to think that really happened .

Gee John, do have a laptop mounted to the handlebars of your dirt bike?

Have you ever met Willie, or ever saw him play? Probably not. Your probably too young. To say he was lucky to have run 11 racks in his life, is ignorant and dis-respectful, to one of the greatest players of all time.

Whether you ever reach his accomplishments in 14.1 remains to be seen.

I knew Willie all my life, and one thing you do not compare to him is, class.
He had humility, dignity, kindness, and respect for others.
Willie was a first class act, and he would never be whining over peoples comments or opinions.

I wish you all the best in your future endeavors, but most of all I hope you grow up.

 

[JB Cases]

Mosconi did not do a tour with Greenleaf when he was 8. Mosconi was like 20/21 when he did that tour.

 

[the420trooper]

John,

Right now you simply do not have the 14.1 record to compare with Willie so when you insist on comparing 14.1 you fall short.

I don't know you well enough to like you or dislike you and I have no ax to grind. Michael, (the420trooper) that originated this thread is a friend of mine. We often share opinions. I had intended to stay out of this thread until I saw that he started it. He will be interested in my opinion.
Hu

Always glad to hear your side, Hu. You make some excellent points.

However, after having watched Schmidt and Mosconi play, (Granted, I've seen more of John.), and from the matches that I've seen, I think John plays smarter straight pool, and his execution is better.

While Willie holds more titles, has won more tournaments, etc., I just don't think he had the robot-like stroke, and the shot selection abilities of Schmitty.

But I really wasn't trying to compare the entire careers of the two, just their respective high runs. I think if John locked himself up in a basement with a table comparable to the one on which Willie set his record, he would break 526 in a couple months.

I really didn't intend for this thread to turn out the way it did, I was just trying to stimulate conversation about pool. I also paid a compliment to a member we're lucky to have here.

John, please don't let it be my thread that runs you away from AZB. Some of us really appreciate your insight into the game. It's hard to argue with the perspective of one who's accomplished what you have.

Michael

 

[Ironman317]

on todays equipment, mosconi, lassiter and crane would probably never miss...just as the top players of today do not hardly miss either.

 

[Rich93]

Mosconi did not do a tour with Greenleaf when he was 8. Mosconi was like 20/21 when he did that tour.

Exactly. He did an exhibition tour with Greenleaf after the 1933 world championship (the first Willie played in). Willie would have been 20. They played 107 games in 112 days. Ralph won 57 and Willie 50, but Willie was winning most of the games at the end of the tour. Greenleaf was drunk much of the time, but Willie says he learned a lot during the tour just by observing how Greenleaf played position.

As for age 8, Willie did play Ralph a novelty exhibition game when he was 7 and Ralph was world champion. Willie writes: "Ralph was a wonderful friendly guy, but not so friendly that he was going to let a seven year old beat him. He won the game ..."

 

[huckster]

They were both amazing runs by both Willie and John. But in my opinion, anyone that can beat Irving "Deacon" Crane's 309 in 1939 on a slow as mollases 5 x10 with clay balls would be the best ever.

My Grandfather who butted heads with some of the greatest straights players of all time said nobody ran balls like Willie. It was not uncommon for Willie to run over a 100 a couple times a day. At one point he ran 100 in a row like eight straight exhibitions. It is kinda of odd how I believe his legend has dimmed the last few years. I am too young to have seen Willie in his prime (not many people on this board did see him then). He was a master at 14.1.

The only other people that my Grandfather said played the game different then everyone else was the above mentioned Mr. Irving Crane whom my grandfather said was a master at the game but did not pocket balls like Willie. Arthur Babe Cranfield who had a run in the neighborhood of 700+ (My grandfather thought Babe was a great player and if Babe said he pocketed 700 balls then Babe made 700 balls) The almost mythical 1920's icon (name is slipping my mind) who a young Willie toured with for Brunswick, and developed a drinking problem. The last was someone I have only heard mentioned a few times was named "Sailor" and he ran near 400 balls on a 5x10 during a gambling session.

One thing to remember is that high runs were not looked at back then like they are now. Willie made high runs popular. BAck then two things were important First getting the cash, and to the other group titles and championships. My grandfather is listed incorrectly with a 260+ ball run as his high run he told me the most that he counted was higher (do not remember if it was 287 or 290+) but he never counted. There was no reason to keep pockting balls. My grandfather told me the few times he had to open up his game and play he would run out the game to 200 and either play another or the game the person quit. A lot of people that gambled at 14.1 played to 100 or 200 back then. Willie was the only one who played 2000 point matches (challenge world championships)

 

[john schmidt]

hi

the truth is i dont idolize willie.

you know why its because he would have treaded me like shit with his pompous arrogant b.s. if i was his peer.


ask any of the guys from his era .

if i asked for his autograph and watched his clinic he might be nice to me.

for now everything ive done in pool and my peers have done in pool is compared to him.

frankly its gotten old to be told constantly how inferior we all are compared to him.
hes not my hero sorry.


the beauty of all this is all you guys out there who are ragging on me are clueless nobodys and will not affect me in the least have a nice day.


if anything this will be good for my career having tons of people hate and disrespect me.


being nice and polite hasnt paid my bills.


the only guy i know who made big money in pool was earl strickland and we all know how he talks to people.

he gets invited to the mosconi cup every year solely because hes even money to tell the crowd to f off.

i think to be famous in pool youve got to be hated and tell the fans off.


from now on i think im going to play the villian i would get more fame and money.

so to kick things off all you guys who are ripping on me about this mosconi thing can take a flying leap.

i appreciate you people pushing my buttons i think a year from now i will be thanking you for turning me into the villian.

it worked for earl.


another thing i think im going to start talking like minnasota fats..


efren cant beat me and never has.

im the best ever

thorston ran 404 so what ive banked that many in a row.

i would have robbed willie.

the whole womans tour needs weight.oh wait a minute you probably already knew that.

and last but not least 50 percent of the guys on az billiards run their mouth like they got a 200 iq,a million dollar bank account, a lysol can size dick, and a high run of 400.



in reality most of them have the iq of a 4ball,barely have enough money to pay their apa dues,and couldnt get laid in a womans prison, furthermore their shoe size is about the same as their high run. lol



in closing im not cool enough to hang out on this site and im not a good enough player apparently either.


but hey you guys shouldnt get mad i mean everybody has a right to their opinion right.thats what you keep telling me.

good by and good riddens im never writing another thing on this piece of shit moron gathering website.


p.s. i was in a good mood but you guys couldnt wait 2 days after i won a tourney to start talking about how bad we all play compared to god i mean willie.

well you can have him see how much he posts around here.

you know if this posts ends my career i swear you guys have done me a favor.


i have never seen a game where the top players are dissed on more and it pays like crap anyway so what the hell who cares it would be more time to ride the dirt bike. lol

 

[KoolKat9Lives]

You have some great lines John. A "Lysol can"? Where do you pull this sh*t from? Some people might say F-off to the callous posters in a forum, but you have more ammo than the US armed forces!

I'll see you around John. Great win and best of luck going forward.

Matt

the truth is i dont idolize willie.

you know why its because he would have treaded me like shit with his pompous arrogant b.s. if i was his peer.


ask any of the guys from his era .

if i asked for his autograph and watched his clinic he might be nice to me.

for now everything ive done in pool and my peers have done in pool is compared to him.

frankly its gotten old to be told constantly how inferior we all are compared to him.
hes not my hero sorry.


the beauty of all this is all you guys out there who are ragging on me are clueless nobodys and will not affect me in the least have a nice day.


if anything this will be good for my career having tons of people hate and disrespect me.


being nice and polite hasnt paid my bills.


the only guy i know who made big money in pool was earl strickland and we all know how he talks to people.

he gets invited to the mosconi cup every year solely because hes even money to tell the crowd to f off.

i think to be famous in pool youve got to be hated and tell the fans off.


from now on i think im going to play the villian i would get more fame and money.

so to kick things off all you guys who are ripping on me about this mosconi thing can take a flying leap.

i appreciate you people pushing my buttons i think a year from now i will be thanking you for turning me into the villian.

it worked for earl.


another thing i think im going to start talking like minnasota fats..


efren cant beat me and never has.

im the best ever

thorston ran 404 so what ive banked that many in a row.

i would have robbed willie.

the whole womans tour needs weight.oh wait a minute you probably already knew that.

and last but not least 50 percent of the guys on az billiards run their mouth like they got a 200 iq,a million dollar bank account, a lysol can size dick, and a high run of 400.



in reality most of them have the iq of a 4ball,barely have enough money to pay their apa dues,and couldnt get laid in a womans prison, furthermore their shoe size is about the same as their high run. lol



in closing im not cool enough to hang out on this site and im not a good enough player apparently either.


but hey you guys shouldnt get mad i mean everybody has a right to their opinion right.thats what you keep telling me.

good by and good riddens im never writing another thing on this piece of shit moron gathering website.


p.s. i was in a good mood but you guys couldnt wait 2 days after i won a tourney to start talking about how bad we all play compared to god i mean willie.

well you can have him see how much he posts around here.

you know if this posts ends my career i swear you guys have done me a favor.


i have never seen a game where the top players are dissed on more and it pays like crap anyway so what the hell who cares it would be more time to ride the dirt bike. lol

 

[Fuji-whopper]

I'm in tears laughing so hard, because of his posts and because the posters it's aimed at STILL don't get it.

In my opinion (which means zilcho), it's rude and futile to compare two people from two different eras. You'll have 80% agree one way, 80% agree the other way and all 200% of them are right.

 

[dmgwalsh]

the truth is i dont idolize willie.

you know why its because he would have treaded me like shit with his pompous arrogant b.s. if i was his peer.


ask any of the guys from his era .

if i asked for his autograph and watched his clinic he might be nice to me.

for now everything ive done in pool and my peers have done in pool is compared to him.

frankly its gotten old to be told constantly how inferior we all are compared to him.
hes not my hero sorry.


the beauty of all this is all you guys out there who are ragging on me are clueless nobodys and will not affect me in the least have a nice day.


if anything this will be good for my career having tons of people hate and disrespect me.


being nice and polite hasnt paid my bills.


the only guy i know who made big money in pool was earl strickland and we all know how he talks to people.

he gets invited to the mosconi cup every year solely because hes even money to tell the crowd to f off.

i think to be famous in pool youve got to be hated and tell the fans off.


from now on i think im going to play the villian i would get more fame and money.

so to kick things off all you guys who are ripping on me about this mosconi thing can take a flying leap.

i appreciate you people pushing my buttons i think a year from now i will be thanking you for turning me into the villian.

it worked for earl.


another thing i think im going to start talking like minnasota fats..


efren cant beat me and never has.

im the best ever

thorston ran 404 so what ive banked that many in a row.

i would have robbed willie.

the whole womans tour needs weight.oh wait a minute you probably already knew that.

and last but not least 50 percent of the guys on az billiards run their mouth like they got a 200 iq,a million dollar bank account, a lysol can size dick, and a high run of 400.



in reality most of them have the iq of a 4ball,barely have enough money to pay their apa dues,and couldnt get laid in a womans prison, furthermore their shoe size is about the same as their high run. lol



in closing im not cool enough to hang out on this site and im not a good enough player apparently either.


but hey you guys shouldnt get mad i mean everybody has a right to their opinion right.thats what you keep telling me.

good by and good riddens im never writing another thing on this piece of shit moron gathering website.


p.s. i was in a good mood but you guys couldnt wait 2 days after i won a tourney to start talking about how bad we all play compared to god i mean willie.

well you can have him see how much he posts around here.

you know if this posts ends my career i swear you guys have done me a favor.


i have never seen a game where the top players are dissed on more and it pays like crap anyway so what the hell who cares it would be more time to ride the dirt bike. lol

Good for John. Our loss. his gain.

Funny stuff.

Too bad the flies of the marketplace have again driven John away with unwanted comparisons and other drivel.

Too bad they wouldn't just let him enjoy his recent win in yet another discipline.

 

[the420trooper]

the truth is i dont idolize willie.

you know why its because he would have treaded me like shit with his pompous arrogant b.s. if i was his peer.

Probably true.

the beauty of all this is all you guys out there who are ragging on me are clueless nobodys and will not affect me in the least have a nice day.

So what about those who think you're great?

i think to be famous in pool youve got to be hated and tell the fans off.
from now on i think im going to play the villian i would get more fame and money.

A lot of people respect you for your character, I don't thinkl this is the way to go.

i would have robbed willie.

the whole womans tour needs weight.oh wait a minute you probably already knew that.

and last but not least 50 percent of the guys on az billiards run their mouth like they got a 200 iq,a million dollar bank account, a lysol can size dick, and a high run of 400.

You said a mouthful there...(consider that last line stolen.)

in closing im not cool enough to hang out on this site and im not a good enough player apparently either.

Come on now...you know better than that.

good by and good riddens im never writing another thing on this piece of shit moron gathering website.

p.s. i was in a good mood but you guys couldnt wait 2 days after i won a tourney to start talking about how bad we all play compared to god i mean willie.

Congrats on the one pocket win, looks like Efren's domination may be over...but don't let a couple of rude people ruin things for you, and for everyone else. Some of us do appreciate having you here.

I doubt Tiger Woods posts on any golf forums...

 

[BillPorter]

What?

Anyone reading John's last post would think that the posters on AZ have said a lot of nasty, disrespectful, and critical things about John and his pool game. I have read the whole thread to this point and have seen no comments of this sort. About the harshest thing I have seen are comments to the effect that John's 14.1 game is not as good as Mosconi's was in his prime.

 

[Blackjack]

Hey John...

Lysol -can sized dick???

How much are you paying Rogan to write this stuff for you?

:killingme:

 

[trustyrusty]

Hey John...

Lysol -can sized dick???

How much are you paying Rogan to write this stuff for you?

:killingme:

I would think more along the lines of Jay Mohr, but he doesn't post here, so we'll go with Mr. Rogan.

 

[huckster]

I think John plays all games great. In my opinion Willie was a once in a lifetime player like Efren is to our generation. Willie practiced his patterns religously and had the sponsership (Brunswick) to pursue his excellance. After john won the US open I made a post that winning the US open and a dollar would buy him a cup of coffee. I wonder how much John actually practices? No do doubt he is a worldclass talent and player, but can't even get sponsership to the world championships. We may never see a player that played straight pool like Willie again, or 1pocket like Efren.

When the IPT was the savior of pool the pros actually practiced guys like Johnny, Rodney, John, and others found a reason to play hours upon hours everyday and for a brief moment it seemed the glory days would return. We all know how that turned out. Do I think Willie was the better practicioneer then John S at 14.1? Yes I do because I think Willie was better then everyone. Could John run more balls then 526 I think so and I forsee it happening. I just think a guy like Willie is once in a lifetime (my grandfather truly believed he could of busted Willie gambling, but he said Willie was the greatest at what he was measured at, winning long game, or round robin world championships)


Rich (my real name)

 

[Zagiflyer]

All I can say on this subject is that if John were to give Willie a year (don't even need "the rest of his life") to run more than 245 balls on the same table John did then I would bet everything I could get, borrow, and steal, inlcuding my first child and promise to sell myself into slavery on Willie doing it with ease.

There may never be again another player who was as dedicated to winning straight pool matches and playing perfect as Willie Mosconi was.

By John's own admission he is a part time pool player. How great would he be if he played full time? Who knows. He himself said that if the top players of today were to play much more 14.1 then they wouldn't be better than he is. So by that logic I'd have to guess that even if John did decide to be a full time 14.1 player he wouldn't be "better than" Willie Mosconi.

And also, give Wille a few months to learn one pocket and banks and I will bet my wife's family fortune putting him in box on those games as well. Willie already knew how to play rotation games at world class speed.

You have a good point there at the end. Everyone assumes that because Mosconi was a 14.1 player that he wouldn't be able to play other games at the top level, I think that's a very bad assumption. All pool games rely on shot-making, stroke, cueball control and shot selection. In his prime mosconi was a master at all of these things and, I also understand, a pretty good 3-cushion player who occasionlly played in 3-cusion tournaments with top pros in that game and had respectable showings.

Does anybody really believe that Mosconi wouldn't have been able to play banks, 9-ball, one pocket, 8-ball or any other cue game at the highest level if those games determined the championships in those days? 14.1 uses all the balls, all the pockets and all of the shots. You need (as JS mentions in his impressive 275? ball run narrated video) excellent shot making in 14.1 if you want to run a lot of balls because you have to shoot your way out of jams sometimes to sustain runs. You don't bank much in 14.1 but if Mosconi could play 3C with pros in that game (along with some of the things in his trick shot/exhibition repitoire) does anybody believe that he didn't have a mastery of angles and banking?

I think that Mosconi's skills coupled with his fierce determination to win would make him a threat to beat any player at any game in any era if he was in his prime. Having said all that there's still no doubt that JS or any of the good modern players could keep Mosconi in his chair if they got a run going. From what I've read about Mosconi I think he would like to play guys like JS and Earl because he was a fast, agressive offensive player and he liked that kind of game. I think Mosconi would like John's daring style of play and explosive level of offensive firepower.

 

[metallicane]

the truth is i dont idolize willie.

you know why its because he would have treaded me like shit with his pompous arrogant b.s. if i was his peer.


ask any of the guys from his era .

if i asked for his autograph and watched his clinic he might be nice to me.

for now everything ive done in pool and my peers have done in pool is compared to him.

frankly its gotten old to be told constantly how inferior we all are compared to him.
hes not my hero sorry.


the beauty of all this is all you guys out there who are ragging on me are clueless nobodys and will not affect me in the least have a nice day.


if anything this will be good for my career having tons of people hate and disrespect me.


being nice and polite hasnt paid my bills.


the only guy i know who made big money in pool was earl strickland and we all know how he talks to people.

he gets invited to the mosconi cup every year solely because hes even money to tell the crowd to f off.

i think to be famous in pool youve got to be hated and tell the fans off.


from now on i think im going to play the villian i would get more fame and money.

so to kick things off all you guys who are ripping on me about this mosconi thing can take a flying leap.

i appreciate you people pushing my buttons i think a year from now i will be thanking you for turning me into the villian.

it worked for earl.


another thing i think im going to start talking like minnasota fats..


efren cant beat me and never has.

im the best ever

thorston ran 404 so what ive banked that many in a row.

i would have robbed willie.

the whole womans tour needs weight.oh wait a minute you probably already knew that.

and last but not least 50 percent of the guys on az billiards run their mouth like they got a 200 iq,a million dollar bank account, a lysol can size dick, and a high run of 400.



in reality most of them have the iq of a 4ball,barely have enough money to pay their apa dues,and couldnt get laid in a womans prison, furthermore their shoe size is about the same as their high run. lol



in closing im not cool enough to hang out on this site and im not a good enough player apparently either.


but hey you guys shouldnt get mad i mean everybody has a right to their opinion right.thats what you keep telling me.

good by and good riddens im never writing another thing on this piece of shit moron gathering website.


p.s. i was in a good mood but you guys couldnt wait 2 days after i won a tourney to start talking about how bad we all play compared to god i mean willie.

well you can have him see how much he posts around here.

you know if this posts ends my career i swear you guys have done me a favor.


i have never seen a game where the top players are dissed on more and it pays like crap anyway so what the hell who cares it would be more time to ride the dirt bike. lol

Don't let the door hit you on your overly sensitive ass. Is Bear Bryant in town? You seem kind of moody.